Character Build Question - Mages take a lookski

[Adm.Venge]

Actually no. The main requirement is being a 21st in a caster class. Meaning you need 21 lvls in one of Wizard, Sorc, Cleric or druid.

You are still off. From the NWN Wiki:

Automatic still spell
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 27, 21st level, cast 9th level spells, Still spell

Meaning you need 21 total character levels and able to cast 9th level spells. You wont have 27 in Spellcraft until character level 24 in any case.

[Moredo]

I think you need 21 mage levels regardless.

[Cougar]

I think you need 21 mage levels regardless.

From NWN wiki

Category:Epic Feats

These feats can be taken once a character has reached level 21+ and the pre-requisites met.

Type of Feat: (Epic) Metamagic

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 27, 21st level, cast 9th level spells, Still spell

Specifics: This feat allows the character to cast all spells of a given level range as still spells automatically. These spells may be cast while wearing armor. This feat may be taken multiple times.

* Automatic still spell I level 0 - 3 spell
* Automatic still spell II level 4 - 6 spell
* Automatic still spell III level 7 - 9 spell

Use: Automatic

Notes

* Requires Hordes of the Underdark.
* This is an epic selectable class feat for bards. A bard can't achieve the 9th level spell requirement on its own, so 17 levels of cleric, druid, wizard or 18 levels of sorcerer would be needed.
* By removing the somatic component from spells, these feats also eliminate the risk of arcane spell failure associated with wearing armor. Many arcane spellcaster builds take these four feats (still spell and three levels of automatic still spell) and one level in a warrior class so they can wear heavy armor.

[GunnJ]

I think there is some confusion here between the Epic Feats and the Epic Spells.

Epic feats are available once any character reaches lvl 21, no matter the individual classes. My character was able to take epic feats at lvl 17 Sorc, 4 rogue, that she also met the requirements for.

The Epic Spells are not available until lvl 21 of the basic spellcasting class.

[Cougar]

Thanks for stating that more clearly for me GunnJ

[Abd al-Azrad]

On the other hand, one spell you will want: burning bolt. No DC, and with your sneak attacks and high ranged touch attack bonus, this one will pwn for you.

I'm actually curious about this. Does the engine give sneak attack damage to spells requiring ranged touch attacks? I know that it works in theory, but I've never actually seen it work, nor heard of it used.

And wow, a burning bolt with +5d6 sneak would be vicious. Heck, even +1d6 would be vicious.

[maxinion]

I was corrected on IRC the other day about this: only 1d6 of the sneak attack gets through, because otherwise you'd get burning bolts dealing hundreds and hundreds of damage. But yeah, a bit of sneak does actually help with the touch attack spells. (That's Avlis coding mind you, not something done by the engine itself).

[Crunk]

you will most certainly get more out of your casting class if you don't go steelcaster. In fact it has always required a massive sacrifice with regards to spell casting for a char to go steelcaster. like has been stated earlier, your DC's will be low, still spell is usually a prereq, but you could just go with the penalty and fail you spells a good portion of the time.

that being said, Steelcasting makes for good fun and strategy, especially before all this auto still garbage that came with Hotu. sometimes you will need to drop the shield and take the 45% failure gamble on a spell that just might save the day. With steelcasting you sacrifice a whole spell level But lose absolutely nothing with regards to your prowess as a warrior, Buffed or unbuffed you should be an Armored clad force to be reckoned with. oh and there are several spells which are Verbal only and disregard armor penalties so its important to always pay close attention to that.

Ultimately, its more advantageous to go with a non armored caster, with many buff you can most likely get your Ac near that, or higher than an armored caster, but its all up to the in game path you with to follow. There also have been some famous steelcasters who still live in the realm. (all real stealcasters have studied under at least one) finding out who they are or attempting to seek them out could be quite the quest. (I would be a poor choice since I have severely neglected my apprentices in the last few years)

anyways Just my 2 cents.

[mhogar]

On the other hand, one spell you will want: burning bolt. No DC, and with your sneak attacks and high ranged touch attack bonus, this one will pwn for you.

I'm actually curious about this. Does the engine give sneak attack damage to spells requiring ranged touch attacks? I know that it works in theory, but I've never actually seen it work, nor heard of it used.

And wow, a burning bolt with +5d6 sneak would be vicious. Heck, even +1d6 would be vicious.

You can even score critical hits: double damage on a confirmed 20

[Fire Monkey]

I know something about this one. Del was a level 8 Wiz with Int 14 at level 20. Now at level 36 he is a level 22 Wiz with a suitably high Int. Its a long road but rewarding. Ultimately you will be a much better melee-mage than a normal mage, but obviously your spells won't be as strong and as people have said you will get stung by dispels.

My main observations are:

1) Boosting your Int is a pain in the ass but totally necessary. Don't just go for the regular ability points (lvls 20,24,28 etc.). You will need to use many of your epic feats to boost Int as well. This certainly weakens your development in other areas (think of all those juicy epic feats). You definitely need the extra Int though; not just for casting spells of a certain level, but also for getting bonus spells (all the more important as you will have low numbers of spells compared to character level) and of course for the DC of any offensive spells you use.

2) Related to the above, feats will be at a premium. This is not just because you need to use feats to get more Int, but also because any mage is useless without at least a few key metamagic feats. As a low level caster extend spell will be crucial as will empower spell for those empowered cats grace, bull str etc. Given all this you can pretty much forget about taking any non-magic orientated feats in epic levels. Wizards get bonus feats at levels 5,10,15 etc. which will certainly help out.

3) Pick an appropriate spell school to give you a much needed boost of one spell per spell lvl per day. Each spell school has an opposite forbidden school though so watch what you choose, you might be loosing out on some crucial spells later on.

4) Your offensive spells won't be worth even learning given the types of critters an epic character will generally face, your DC's will suck and the damage will be nothing compared to what you can do with your swords.

5) You will get dispeled a lot. This wont matter too much offensively (you should have decent melee damage anyway). It tends to matter much more deffensively once you start relying on spells rather than gear for your AC.

6) On the plus side there are loads of great buff spells for which DC's matter not! Even at low levels things like protection from alignment, shield, flame weapon, heroism, all the ability buffs are great. Heck at level one you can get True Strike! Equally there are spells like spell breach that are useful regardless of your caster level.

7) The great thing about being a mage is you get something new to play with pretty much every level. I found this great during epic levels when with some classes it come be 3+ levels and many many months before anything new comes along.

[robocod]

I don't currently play a wizard, but used to. I also tried adding wizard levels at a late stage to a fighter PC (at lvl 21). So I have some feeling of what you are talking about.

Regardless of whatever "flavour" of mage you choose (steel-caster, spell-sword, support mage, self-buffer or whatever) you will come across one limitation...

At low level mages suck. They get very few spells, and they don't do very much (low damage, effect, duration, etc.). On the other hand your character is lvl 21 - epic! At epic level it maybe takes a month (or several) to gain each level. So, consider this, at lvl 21 you take your first mage level. The hp it gives you is 1d4, you can cast only 2 or 3 1st lvl spells with your INT, and they don't do much (probably best is protection from evil, mage armor, or something, maybe one of the new ones - I'm not familiar with them). So, basically for an epic character that level didn't actually gain you very much. Now consider it will take a month or 2 to get the next mage level.. what do you get.. another d4 hp, 1 more spell (1st level), etc.. See what I'm getting it. The progression and time taken before you get anything useful will be painfully slow. At last that is what I found... it was like I was wasting levels, at levl 21 I could have taken more fighter feats or rogue levels and got something more useful, but taking a mage level at that high a level seems like a waste (my opinion).

Of course, when you get say 5 lvls under your belt, you have access to better spells, and some of them might start to be of real practical use (GMW? Flame weapon?) although they are limited in power, duration, etc. You only really start to get real benefit at say 10 lvls of mage... and at 20 lvls of mage you will rock, but the epics levels don't come fast, and unless you are just going for RP aspect, I think you will find it hard going to keep motivated.

(I found it hard, and in the end dropped that character after 3 mage levels... felt like I was going backward... spawns where getting harder, expectations from peers where higher, but my mage levels just didn't add anything that wasn't already avaialble in bottle form*).

However, if you do take it, one skill I would invest in is spellcraft. Every 5 points adds +1 save vs spells, pluse the ability to read scrolls higher than you can cast inately. Maybe you already have UMD that helps here also.

The other thing that mage gives you is access to the mage orders, and there is some fantastic RP to be head there. Particularly as you will be a rather unusual mage.

Good luck with whatever you try.

* Just about every spell is available in bottle-form now. It makes my current barbarian awesome, but I can't help feeling that it takes something away from the casters. On the other hand, the fact that I can self-buff with potions, means that they can be their own man and not be the "party buffer"... so I suppose it goes both ways.

[chamalscuro]

7) The great thing about being a mage is you get something new to play with pretty much every level. I found this great during epic levels when with some classes it come be 3+ levels and many many months before anything new comes along.

That's an important point there. Being a pure-class mage, you get accustomed to having fun stuff, new spells, at every level-up. It's a real shock at epic levels when you no longer get new spells every level, level-ups are few and far in between, and only your feats bring you anything new. Nobody's crying for epic mages, but there it is anyway. Careful multiclassing covers that issue.

[Moredo]

[spokeydonkey]

Boo! Moredo fixed his link!

[Fire Monkey]

I forgot to add. Militant bonuses are a definte plus with this build. They can make your crappy low level spells that little bit better.