Proposal to encourage RP: a new way to award XP

[WrathOG777]

The appallingly low intellectual content of some of the responses to what could have been a constructive conversation, coupled with the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved (which is essentially a denial of 2). above), have pretty well convinced me of the worthlessness of trying to discuss anything with the Avlis community at large (though not at all with specific individuals).

Thats your opinion, and thats fine. But it doesnt really matter because the team has already stated many times that they do not intend to do anything about powergaming, as far as implementing some kind of system that tries to prohibit it, short of dealing with EXTREME individual cases as they arise.

See Orlerons post here, which is the bottom line since its coming from him:

viewtopic.php?t=13127&highlight=powergaming

See.. that's just it. HIS suggestion is not about powergameing!!!! You really are making yourself look bad by harping on powergaming, when that was not the intention at all of his proposition.

Is that so hard to comprehend. Not, no, zip, zero to do about powergameing. Nothing about it. If the suggestion effects powergamers poorly again, who cares!? The concept, the intent, that is to help the folks who RP concept is a pacifist of some sort get xp without haveing to resort hack n slash ever.

It's about getting exp to folks that do NOT hack and slash or take up crafting. That is what his suggestion is about. Helping janur get 20th lvl someday.

The abyss system may have been implemented to control powergamers, but it could also be used to help social characters instead. The orgininal topic that is suggested here by Furin is intended to help those who have social characters.

[Jordicus]

the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved...

i don't think you quite have your facts in order... we have a clear mandate on how to deal with such people already. so just because we don't agree with your opinion as to the best method to solve this perceived "out of control" problem, doesn't mean we aren't already taking care of it.

what is it with you people these days? just because we don't do something the way you want it, then the Team is doing a lousy job or we have an attitude? I don't spend 3-5 hours every feking single day making Avlis a better place just to cater to everyone's whim of the moment.. you want to make a suggestion? then great, make a suggestion... here's the player suggestion box: viewtopic.php?t=24895

and you know what? we read and like a lot of the players suggestions. does that mean we will implement every single one? NO.

bleh

[Cymbolism]

bleh

my thoughts exactly, that one word says volumes

[WrathOG777]

the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved...

i don't think you quite have your facts in order... we have a clear mandate on how to deal with such people already. so just because we don't agree with your opinion as to the best method to solve this perceived "out of control" problem, doesn't mean we aren't already taking care of it.

what is it with you people these days? just because we don't do something the way you want it, then the Team is doing a lousy job or we have an attitude? I don't spend 3-5 hours every feking single day making Avlis a better place just to cater to everyone's whim of the moment.. you want to make a suggestion? then great, make a suggestion... here's the player suggestion box: viewtopic.php?t=24895

and you know what? we read and like a lot of the players suggestions. does that mean we will implement every single one? NO.

bleh

Again, a misunderstanding! He is not talking about powergaming at all. That is not the problem he means. He is talking about players feeling some need to go get exp at the expense of RPing, and everyone must admit that feeling is there occasionaly.

He was proposeing a way, however likely/unlikely it is to work, to help social characters get xp without having to resort to hack and slash or crafting, which might go against their character concept.

Then everyone blows up on him about powergaming. This is not about powergameing. His proposal might effect it, but the intent has nothing to do with powergamers it has to do with making sure social characters get exp along with their RP in an automated way because there are not 60+ full time DMs dedicated to RP exp cookie distribution.

[Jordicus]

Again, a misunderstanding! He is not talking about powergaming at all. That is not the problem he means. He is talking about players feeling some need to go get exp at the expense of RPing, and everyone must admit that feeling is there occasionaly.

He was proposeing a way, however likely/unlikely it is to work, to help social characters get xp without having to resort to hack and slash or crafting, which might go against their character concept.

Then everyone blows up on him about powergaming. This is not about powergameing. His proposal might effect it, but the intent has nothing to do with powergamers it has to do with making sure social characters get exp along with their RP in an automated way because there are not 60+ full time DMs dedicated to RP exp cookie distribution.

i clearly undersstand his suggestion.. don't worry about that. I think it has some merit to it, but as others have pointed out, there are problems with it as well.. as I stated, great, make a suggestion... we'll take a look at it. and yes, I know it is not directly related to powergaming. therefore my lack of mentioning powergaming in my reponse.

however I also can clearly understand that this statement is not constructive in the least.

the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved...

[4x4_Ender]

It's about getting exp to folks that do NOT hack and slash or take up crafting. That is what his suggestion is about. Helping janur get 20th lvl someday.

That is one of the reasons to implement a system like this, yes. But saying that the point of having a system like this is to promote roleplay is just an indirect statment of saying its meant to prohibit powergaming. Furthermore, his source of this idea is specifically the used of this system on the Abyss server. And let me quote Sarrena's statement, who is a team member there again for you:

The Abyss time system exists only to control powergamers. It's a tool nothing more. It's working rather fine for us. It only controls the rate at which XP can be obtained through killing stuff.

That is THE purpose of this system, period. It takes away the ability to powergame by killing stuff in the same area for hours to get hoards of XP, but rather have everyone pretty much advance at the same rate.

Now, another reason the whole idea of this system is flawed is because its based on the opinion that RP and getting XP from killing stuff are completely seperate, and one cannot do both at once. Let me say again, this is simply NOT true.

To rebuttle your arguement of this system being able to allow characters like Janur to become level 20, why should that happen?? The whole idea of level advancement in D&D is to progress as a WARRIOR (in the general sense, meaning that you progress in your combat abilities.) These abilities can be simply melee combat with a weapon in the case of a fighter type where you learn new teqniques (ie feats) as you earn expereince from actually FIGHTING, or the ability to cast new spells for mages which can only happen if you actually use the spells you know and practice with them in the first place, etc. This is what happens when you gain levels as a PC, you get better at killing monsters and can take on more powerful ones. Thats D&D. So, why should a simple buisness man who spends most of his time running an inn, trading, crafting, or whatever be able to kill a dragon?? He shouldnt.... just the thought is rediculous. Think about it....

The whole idea of this communist BS system is completely foolish, and i would NEVER play on a server that implements it because, like kokobil said (who has played on it before), it limits your Freedom. [/quote]

[WrathOG777]

Furthermore, his source of this idea is specifically the used of this system on the Abyss server.

no, see, star brought that up, as something that is already coded that is similar.

[Titanium Dragon]

That is THE purpose of this system, period. It takes away the ability to powergame by killing stuff in the same area for hours to get hoards of XP, but rather have everyone pretty much advance at the same rate.

And the problem with this is...?

Now, another reason the whole idea of this system is flawed is because its based on the opinion that RP and getting XP from killing stuff are completely seperate, and one cannot do both at once. Let me say again, this is simply NOT true.

It is not by necessity true. I have seen people do GREAT jobs of RPing while going on an adventure in a group. I've also seen people do nothing but kill monsters in silence.

To rebuttle your arguement of this system being able to allow characters like Janur to become level 20, why should that happen?? The whole idea of level advancement in D&D is to progress as a WARRIOR (in the general sense, meaning that you progress in your combat abilities.) These abilities can be simply melee combat with a weapon in the case of a fighter type where you learn new teqniques (ie feats) as you earn expereince from actually FIGHTING, or the ability to cast new spells for mages which can only happen if you actually use the spells you know and practice with them in the first place, etc. This is what happens when you gain levels as a PC, you get better at killing monsters and can take on more powerful ones. Thats D&D. So, why should a simple buisness man who spends most of his time running an inn, trading, crafting, or whatever be able to kill a dragon?? He shouldnt.... just the thought is rediculous. Think about it....

Wrong. You apparently don't understand the real concept behind D&D. Thing is, the only thing there is an innnate system set up to award xp for is monsters. HOWEVER, the DMG does specifically state that there are other (perhaps even better) ways of awarding xp, such as story awards and RPing awards. Killing monsters makes you better at fighting, sure, but it is studying spellbooks and researching magic that makes you a better wizard. Likewise, it is practicing performing, singing, ect. that makes you a better bard, and picking locks, setting traps, disarming traps, and sneaking around that makes you a better rogue. Fighting is NOT the only way of gaining xp, and it not only does not have to be, but in previous editions of D&D and even in the current edition of D&D it is said that awarding other rewards for behavior you want to encourage and completing quests is a good thing. My D&D group stopped awarding monster xp entirely, and started awarding xp based totally on story awards.

The whole idea of this communist BS system is completely foolish, and i would NEVER play on a server that implements it because, like kokobil said (who has played on it before), it limits your Freedom.

It isn't communism. Communism is when everyone would xp from every monster killed, regardless of what they were doing.

It does NOTHING to limit your freedom. You can kill monsters all day under the Abyss 404 system - it won't stop you. It WILL decrease the xp you get from killing them, but that makes sense - after all, fighting isn't all about just fighting, but also discussing tactics, battles, learning and practicing new techniques out of combat, ect. Moreover, you don't have to do anything else. You simply recieve less xp for killing monsters repeatedly. If you want to do it, you can. How does this limit your freedom in any way, save your freedom to quickly powergame to level 20, which is something we want to discourage anyway? It doesn't "force" you to do anything, it just gives you less xp. It does discourage you from mindlessly hacking away at monsters.

I rather like the Abyss 404 system, but as the team isn't going to implement it on Avlis, I'm not going to complain about why it should be.

But honestly... it isn't a bad system, and does nothing to decrease your freedom - you can still hack away at monsters, do quests, or sit around RPing, regardless of how much xp you are gettting. If the only reason you are doing any of those things is xp, and you don't have fun doing it... why do it? Why not do something you DO enjoy? Just because you get less xp from killing monsters shouldn't make it innately any less enjoyable.

[Sinbadsam]

Well is this not a fine kettle of fish we have here.

We each RP from our own POV. My RP is anothers PG an vice versa so what. It is a game nothing more nothing less.

My character is intensely motivated to become better at shaping metal. Now can I role play shaping metal and still advance in crafting and in class? As of right now yes, under that system I do not know.

She at times solo crafting she gets xp in crafting and class. I can recall never getting a RP cookie from a DM while crafting, I have been known to purr, sing and other things while alone crafting. Does that mean that I should? No I understand the DM's times are limited I accept that as just part of the game.

Can we lock this thread? Why? like what was said in SF series "its life Jim but not as we know it?"

Lets go back and have fun, like eating minotaur rump roast, orc steaks with mushrooms and garlic, serving orc steaks to hungry unknowing dwarves, and exhanging the best cooking tips on preparing suckling Elfs.

[4x4_Ender]

You apparently don't understand the real concept behind D&D. Thing is, the only thing there is an innnate system set up to award xp for is monsters. HOWEVER, the DMG does specifically state that there are other (perhaps even better) ways of awarding xp, such as story awards and RPing awards.

I understand that, and its too bad that something like this cant be implemented into Avlis, like getting XP for lock picking for example, since many of the locks on houses are very low DC and basically any character with a few points in the skill could mass hoards of XP off it. And the xp gained could be scaled with respect to the DC of the lock (this is proibibly how its done in PnP, but i wouldnt know since i havnt played it since 2nd Edition came out). But that still doesnt change the fact that implementing a XP system that is scaled with respect to time would still allow for people to become high level that shouldnt be simply based on what they do while IG... eventually anyway. Not that there isnt anything wrong with sitting around a fire shooting the shit, i enjoy doing that alot at times. But someone shouldnt still gain xp from doing that other than the occasional cookie to promote RP of course.

It sounds as if this isnt EXACTLY the type of system that the Abyss has now that i read a bit about it. You still get xp from monsters, but the percentage of XP you get from them is based on time so if your killing something in the same area, eventually you will start getting 0 xp per kill until you wait for a while.

However, from what Kokobid said, it sounds like their XP system just leads to alot of soloing since someone who's time is up for the xp gain from monsters will just leave the area. This is opposed to the Avlis system which gives bonuses for groups. If i wanted to go kill shit solo, i would go play Asheron's Call again.

[WrathOG777]

The abyss system could still give extra party exp. That would be a mix of both.

It seems to provide for the possiblity of improvement and/or supression based on the top and bottom constant chosen. It could be as little as a 0% decrease for hacknslash with a 1000% improvement for only killing one NPC a month. all completely tweakable.

So, in theory, it could be implemented, the team could take a month with 150% to 50% and see that is sucks then just leave it at 100% - 100% not changing exp at all. Perhaps there is already a discussion about this going on on the CoPap team boards. It is working code that is implemented, so that takes a lot of the hardships out of code developement of an idea like this.

I would just like to see something that would help.

[Starslayer_D]

abbyss system first divides the XP for a group kill. THEN applies the INDUVIDUAL XP modifier for time spend in RP.

Thus while you could get 2 XP for a tough critter, your party-member who spend the last three weeks in RP could get 80 for the same creature (or, one has 10% modifier, the other guy 200%)

[Titanium Dragon]

But that still doesnt change the fact that implementing a XP system that is scaled with respect to time would still allow for people to become high level that shouldnt be simply based on what they do while IG... eventually anyway. Not that there isnt anything wrong with sitting around a fire shooting the shit, i enjoy doing that alot at times. But someone shouldnt still gain xp from doing that other than the occasional cookie to promote RP of course.

But WHY? If you want to promote RP, doesn't it stand to reason that you'd, you know, reward it?

We do give xp for quests, both scripted and DM. This sort of system rewards people for not standing around all day killing stuff. You're still mathematically better off killing stuff 100% of the time, but you don't suffer so much if you don't.

It sounds as if this isnt EXACTLY the type of system that the Abyss has now that i read a bit about it. You still get xp from monsters, but the percentage of XP you get from them is based on time so if your killing something in the same area, eventually you will start getting 0 xp per kill until you wait for a while.

However, from what Kokobid said, it sounds like their XP system just leads to alot of soloing since someone who's time is up for the xp gain from monsters will just leave the area. This is opposed to the Avlis system which gives bonuses for groups. If i wanted to go kill shit solo, i would go play Asheron's Call again.

Then the player base of Abyss 404 has either A) degraded in quality or B) Kokobil did it and assumed everyone else did too. I know that when I was there I always tried to group up with people and the people I played with did too. We didn't watch our xp modifier to check if we were optimizing our xp; we just played in character, wandered out into the deserts when we wanted to, came back when we thought we should, sat around and drank/talked when we wanted to. It worked out well for us, and by the time I quit playing there more or less both my characters were at 175% xp and one of them was level 11.

[KilrathiSly]

Same old ..same old..

Player Rants about not getting enough XP and not leveling fast enough...THE OLDEST RANT IN D&D HISTORY.

Whether its PnP or online D&D, this is a rant that never dies..

I think the system is great just the way it is. If you go kill monsters you'll maybe make a few 1 or 2 XP per monsters killed..if you RP and a DM happens to pass by you may easily get a 30, 50 or even 150 XP cookie...worth 75 monsters...which in my opinion amounts to about the same amount of time played since you may have to RP for some time before being noticed, but then the reward is bigger.

But this is not even my point.

Can you see the difference between the two following scenarios :

A. A group of LOW level characters battle orcs, bugbears and a few ogres, RP a great adventure, succeed in the plot then head back with a great story story to tell to their friends.


B. A group of HIGH level battle beholders, balors and Vampire lords, RP a great adventure, succeed in the plot then head back with a great story to tell to their friends.

Let me give a hint.... Both are fun, both are RP, both could attract DM love....there is no difference but one....BOASTING (hey look at my 28 Str, hey I'm level 19...hey I can cast this or that, hey I'm stronger than you...HEY look at me I'm good !

In my PnP campaign, players have as much fun playing low level characters as High level characters, in fact it happens quite often that players will start up new, fresh characters just to have a different feel of the world. (Experiencing a world where the King respects you, and you are the talk of legends is quite different from the new adventurer who is just starting out his carreer.)

Keep it the way it is (see my motto)

There was my two cents on this.

[Emprod]

Bleh, I just deleted a whole bunch of paragraphs on this topic, I don't want them picked apart and counterpointed.

If I have any suggestion, it's that the standard XP gifts of 30-50xp for people that aren't involved in a scripted quest, or killing anything, are too low.

Most DM's here are players too, so they have to see the discrepancy that I do as a player. I can give a new PC a tour of Mikona, show the ropes, introduce people, etc etc, for 3 hours and maybe if there's a DM near get a 30-50xp cookie. Maybe two or three.

Or we can do a scripted quest that takes 10 minutes for 300xp, + monster xp. Or another scripted quest that gives 200xp + monster xp. Or bring jerto 10 bellies. Or farm wheat.

Which have I enjoyed more? Giving the tour of Mikona to a new PC. Which is rewarded by the system better? Scripted quests, and killing things.

How would I fix it? Make those 30-50xp cookies, for people who clearly aren't out there kiling things and doing scripted quests, 300-500xp.

[Chasman]

How would I fix it? Make those 30-50xp cookies, for people who clearly aren't out there kiling things and doing scripted quests, 300-500xp.

Bingo !

[Arena Helerin]

Bleh, I just deleted a whole bunch of paragraphs on this topic, I don't want them picked apart and counterpointed.

If I have any suggestion, it's that the standard XP gifts of 30-50xp for people that aren't involved in a scripted quest, or killing anything, are too low.

Most DM's here are players too, so they have to see the discrepancy that I do as a player. I can give a new PC a tour of Mikona, show the ropes, introduce people, etc etc, for 3 hours and maybe if there's a DM near get a 30-50xp cookie. Maybe two or three.

Or we can do a scripted quest that takes 10 minutes for 300xp, + monster xp. Or another scripted quest that gives 200xp + monster xp. Or bring jerto 10 bellies. Or farm wheat.

Which have I enjoyed more? Giving the tour of Mikona to a new PC. Which is rewarded by the system better? Scripted quests, and killing things.

How would I fix it? Make those 30-50xp cookies, for people who clearly aren't out there kiling things and doing scripted quests, 300-500xp.

Well said. The way I see it, there are three kinds of players who play in Avlis (and it's really more of a spectrum). There are those who play simply for the RP and couldn't care less about XP. These people will act the way the do regardless of how XP is given out.

There are those who RP but are contientious of XP. These people are more often conflicted because they feel that the two are often exclusive. They feel (and I think correctly) that taking time out to RP hinders from time that could be spent gaining XP through script quests, crafting, or monster bashing. (This does not mean that they are exclusive, but let's be honest, a lengthy chat session will often net you no more then two cookies worth 30 XP. Even if you do intigrate others into quests or bashing through RP, you're still not gaining at the same rate most likely).

Finally at the opposite end are those who completely ignore RP to gain XP.

Personally I don't have much of a problem with the current system, but if I were to make a recommendation, it would be to pass out more or larger XP cookies for good RP. The effect would be for some that they do not need to go bash or craft or quest to feel they have done their XP for the day. Some of those who bash or craft might be more likely to stop and smell the roses if they know it will be worth their while.

One argument I've often heard is that a person who doesn't fight shouldn't be rewarded and granted further skills. I.E. if they aren't honing their skills, then they shouldn't be gaining XP. Fair enough, but I don't see any real harm either. From a general standpoint, realism is something that will never truly be achieved, so while the fighting skills aren't in game being worked on, I think an allowance can be made in the rare occasion where a person RPs so much as to advance a level. From the player's standpoint, even if they should advance a level due to RPing a merchant or a lore master, or something like that, what's to stop them from continuing if they level?

As TD suggested, psychology (and my degree is in psychology) teaches that when individuals are rewarded for good behavior, they increase the liklihood of that behavior. Well, that's my .02.

[Vergilius]

Very good post Emp, the most constructive of the day. Also a very good post for Arena, equally constructive.

[Dodge-Venom]

Hmm, i'm sure people aren't intending to do this, but it seems like alot of people are saying that there is something wrong with going out and killing monsters? I think its just as valid for some people to do that, as people chatting all day in town. However, what you have is a situation where the person killing the monsters gets more XP. Its not their fault. It could be perfectly valid for their character to be doing so.

If people are "farming" XP, well thats still cheating, no matter what way you look at it. But i don't think it should penalise the brave paladin who hates undead, so goes out and hunts them. Or the intelligent fighter with a taste for danger.

I think that perhaps the XP rewards for "talking" could be higher. But i disagree that simply interacting with other Players is good RPing. Rping isn't JUST character talking *emoting* "watching" and all that other stuff. Its your character actions in general.

My Orc is a Fighter. I really don't like the idea of him leveling, which involves virtually doing nothing otherthan improving his combact effectiveness, as a result of hours spent talking to people. It just doesn't make sense.

What is the point of the monsters then? Why not make one big tavern, and nothing else. Then XP just become virtually pointless.

I really think monsters should give XP. Its rewarding people whose characters actions are not made up entirely of talking etc. Instead of poiting out the difference in the adventuring and "talking" styles of RP and claiming people adventuring are power lvling etc, make the "talking" style of RP more rewarding if that is what people want to do.

[kokobil]

Then the player base of Abyss 404 has either A) degraded in quality or B) Kokobil did it and assumed everyone else did too. I know that when I was there I always tried to group up with people and the people I played with did too.

1) I want to party up always . I never aim to solo. This is my mentality. I anyway make characters classes that need that damn party thing! I like to party! Well on Abyss404 only partied up on a couple of occasions. The rest of the days i was like begging the others to party up and go some place .I wanted to eplore the damn place. Not stick around a fire and the near swarmer nest all the time. Its the spirit of the adventurer . I like to find new stuff. But i don't like to go explore alone, it doesn't make sence IC anyway. Would you go explore alone the desert in RL? No.
I had a cleric. And i was always the one that was against that attitude casters have , to buff themselves and solo. I made a cleric there to heal and buff the OTHERS.
So that we can explore the long deserts where simple rest doesn't heal you in HP. But , NO. I was never founding anyone to party up with me. So i ended MYSELF soloing! And I think that after all the bigest GRIEF i had in there was this exact thing. That the situation was leading me soloing all the time. Not that i had any problem with it as fighting ability but it just didn't feel right.
As i get it players there just prefer to sit immobile for much time so that they raise their modifier and when a player comes and asks them to party they avoid it because that is ruining THEIR BUILT UP MODIFIER! And that is of course hidden but PURE PG!

2) I read somewhere above that you think the current Avlis system is not fair for players like Janur and we should implement a way so that Janur become 20 LEVEL!!!!!

So......deep inside..... you CARE MUCH for those levels, don't you my "serious" RPers?

And this feeling is bitter. We all RPing to have fun. If some of you feel that RP and chating all the time is not fun because it doesn't give you XP then you are a PG deep inside. You got to learn to RP because you like it and stop looking at the XP all the time my "serious" RPers!
So if you activate the character screen more often than your emote wand per day it is alarming. Seems you have simply got bored of chating, because if that chating was really that exciting you wouldn't stick on the character screen XP points part.

So get out of the tavern and go do something different. Ever cared to explore the world? See what is beyond these city walls? Invastigate secret perhaps hidden areas and challenge yourself into fighting something strong or terrible?
You can RP while fighting. Of course you can't type all those long frases unless you have a personal secretary or unless YOU are a professional secretary, but you can make some pause after each battle and RP it. The RP is a constant thing. It is not like: "now i am chating at the table then i go kill things and be mute for the next couple of hours". If that is your idea you have got it wrong.

[KilrathiSly]

The D&D PnP system rule of thumb is to give about 50X times level of the character per Quest where they overal had good roleplay.

Here

[Arena Helerin]

To Dodge-Venom: If a person wants to go out and kill monsters, that's fine. You can do that and still not be a powergamer, and even if you are a powergamer, that's your perogative. The point I was trying to make, however, is that this is an RP world and that it might be worth doing things that encourage players to RP more then they would if they were to go monster bashing. Monsters should give XP as you suggest and talking is not necessarily good RP, but more often then not unless monster bashing is initiated by an RPd suggestion, there is little to no RP involved. Character interaction and the interaction with the world is the name of the game, and my suggestion was simply that to see more people take the time to engage in this interaction, they should be rewarded when they do, not only from the direct results of monster bashing. For the most part I don't have any problem with the way things are now, but that would be the only thing that I would modify. *shrugs*

To kokobil: I see what you are saying, but I'd actually differ a bit in the emphasis. It is a bit ironic that players point to Janur as a prime example of someone who is a level 8 but in their eyes equal to a level 20. The answer IMO, though, is not to go out an bash things (even with a solid IC reasoning), but to reward him for the RP he does do. He's free to continue doing the great job that he does without the stigma of being a "lowbie". I personally wouldn't be in favor of doing things out of character just to see them as equal in the eyes of everyone else. Honestly, I don't think he cares, it's more of the others who recognize his solid RP and the descrepancy in levels.

[Starslayer_D]

Kokodil: Janur is a non-combatant character...

Abbyss: Only thing wich may preclude partying up is their 'if lvl difference in party is greater than 5, no XP are earned' modifier.
I allways partied, and my character is an explorer. i dare say she defenitely went and explored a lot of the abbyss. And the swarmer burrows are about 50 areas of tunnels below.. very extensive tunnels.

[WrathOG777]

Kokodil: Janur is a non-combatant character...

Abbyss: Only thing wich may preclude partying up is their 'if lvl difference in party is greater than 5, no XP are earned' modifier.
I allways partied, and my character is an explorer. i dare say she defenitely went and explored a lot of the abbyss. And the swarmer burrows are about 50 areas of tunnels below.. very extensive tunnels.

Ok, that idea is pretty lame and does nothing but discourage grouping.

[Starslayer_D]

I agree... but I daresay that's the main cause.. not the XP system, as the modifiers to the XP are induvidual, and don't get applied to the group.