Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

[Ensoleille]

...

Just goes to show kids, be careful what you wish for.

[chamalscuro]

Pathos' dead horse picture

What can kill this horsolich? It seems to be immune to everything.

[yorlik]

To give that ugly horsolich a face I tried to sum up important points of the discussion and write down the gist of it:

What do we want from an XP system ?

1.) Prevent powergaming

Possible solutions:

• a.) Static cap per week, e.g. 7000 XP
  Advantage: Prevents PGing
  Disadvantage: Could lead to extremely fast levelling at lower levels, should be implemented CoPaP-wide to work right.
  
  b.) Dynamic cap per week (Increasing with Character level using some formula or lookup-table)
  Advantage: Could lead to less fast levelling at lowbie levels and speed up levelling at epic levels and thus prevent the problem described at 1a)
  Disadvantage: If overused can totally equal out leveling to linear, like 1 level every 2 weeks constantly and thus stop the wanted delay for levelling at higher levels. Should be implemented CoPaP-wide to work right.

2.) Support non-addictive playstyle

Possible Solutions:

• a.) Make getting XP easier in conjunction with a cap by individualizing XP in groups to allow a kind of "benign towing" (benign, since cap-controlled), either
  
  - static (same XP for same kill over the whole period until the cap is hit)
  Advantages: Epics don't need to be afraid to suck up lowbies XP. Already implemented on test server. Might frustrate some players once the cap is hit and no more bash-XP can be earned and help them do something new, like quests, crafting or the so-called Roleplaying.
  Disadvantage: Must be carefully tweaked for not hitting the cap too quick or too slow. Might frustrate some players once the cap is hit and no more bash-XP can be earned and bring them into serious trouble, if they don't know how to do anything else, like crafting, quests, Roleplaying, exploring, writing IC posts, chatting, cooperate with DMs, Read IC information, Work on the Wiki, cybering, hunting down cyberers, etc ...
  
  - dynamic (decrease XP gained per kill depending on number of XP already gained by using some formula or lookup-table.
  Advantages: Would smooth the cap and cause less frustration in some players. Epics don't need to be afraid to suck up lowbies XP.
  Disadvanatage: Would need to be implemented. Needs careful tweaking to work right.
  
  b.) Generally give out more XP of any kind together with a cap
  Advantage: Would generally support relaxed playstyle.
  Disadvantage: Wouldn't help with the group level-heterogenity problem.

3.) Support playstyle diversification and RPing

Possible Solutions

• a.) Introduce different caps for different kinds of XP,
  e.g.: Cookies: unlimited, Crafting: 2000, Scripted Quests: 2000, Dunegeons: 5000, cybering 69, being crazy 42, paying money to Avlis ($10/XP): unlimited, etc ...
  
  b.) Re-balance the amount of XP given by Dungeon crawling, Crafting, DMs, Quests, etc...
  
  c.) Like 2a: Individualizing XP, to support level-heterogenous groups
  Advantages: See 2a.
  Disadvantages: See 2a.

[yorlik]

Addendum:
What we totally missed as MadKat pointed out is the discussion of the Loot aspect.
I think Loot is something we probably underestimated as a means to influence the playing experience.
Dunno why. Just realized.

[Jaybob]

Addendum:
What we totally missed as MadKat pointed out is the discussion of the Loot aspect.
I think Loot is something we probably underestimated as a means to influence the playing experience.
Dunno why. Just realized.

I didn't miss it!

another thing we seem to be forgetting, or at least failing to mention, is that XP is not the only reward for going dungeoning. Loot (which is also changed in the new system, i believe) is a good draw.

<rubs hands together, waiting for teh ph4t l00tz>

[sinn]

The shame of this whole thing is this thread http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
Is only 2 pages…

While this one here is fucking 13 pages!!!!

[Jaybob]

The shame of this whole thing is this thread http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
Is only 2 pages…

While this one here is fucking 13 pages!!!!

taht's cause that thread has a protection from evil cast on it, while this one clearly does not.

[Cerridwyn]

my .02

i spend waaaaaay too much of my free time playing avlis, and my weekly avarage doesn't hit the cap. those that know me (and probably the team if they looked) would probably tell you i need to find another hobby.

i play because it's FUN. i'm not necessarily here to gain lvls, grind, power-anything....i'm here to have fun, interact with people from around the world, be a part of a community.

there are days when i spend more time in tells talking about the evils of RL with friends than i do fighting IG evils. know what? i'm happy with that.

this is a game!! it's an outlet--entertainment for your mind, better than sitting in front of the TV. think about it....you get to storytell for your frustrated novelist, acting for the frustrated actor in you, and crump when you've had a bad day and really need to bash something--but don't want to go to jail.

everyone needs to lighten up here....stop worrying about caps. what will be will be....have some fun! get into the game and enjoy it.

[Ensoleille]

The shame of this whole thing is this thread http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
Is only 2 pages…

While this one here is fucking 13 pages!!!!

taht's cause that thread has a protection from evil cast on it, while this one clearly does not.

And by "evil" what you really mean is protection from long-winded rhetoric...

[theP]

my .02

i spend waaaaaay too much of my free time playing avlis, and my weekly avarage doesn't hit the cap. those that know me (and probably the team if they looked) would probably tell you i need to find another hobby.

i play because it's FUN. i'm not necessarily here to gain lvls, grind, power-anything....i'm here to have fun, interact with people from around the world, be a part of a community.

there are days when i spend more time in tells talking about the evils of RL with friends than i do fighting IG evils. know what? i'm happy with that.

this is a game!! it's an outlet--entertainment for your mind, better than sitting in front of the TV. think about it....you get to storytell for your frustrated novelist, acting for the frustrated actor in you, and crump when you've had a bad day and really need to bash something--but don't want to go to jail.

everyone needs to lighten up here....stop worrying about caps. what will be will be....have some fun! get into the game and enjoy it.

HOORAY
+1!!!!!!!!

[PlasmaJohn]

From: http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... 88#1003188

Correct. Zero XP for the 40's.

Why did the 40's get nothing?

For a 10th level to get 100xp per kill, the spawns should have been in the mid-high teen CR's or even low 20's. The 40's should have been getting token xp at least. No, granting xp to level-maxxed characters is not useless. At least two subsystems consume xp: scribing and certain crafting recipes. Those two systsems will not allow you to lose a level.

[Crunk]

From: http://www.blackdagger.com/viewtopic.ph ... 88#1003188

Correct. Zero XP for the 40's.

Why did the 40's get nothing?

For a 10th level to get 100xp per kill, the spawns should have been in the mid-high teen CR's or even low 20's. The 40's should have been getting token xp at least. No, granting xp to level-maxxed characters is not useless. At least two subsystems consume xp: scribing and certain crafting recipes. Those two systsems will not allow you to lose a level.

because the probably had nasty xp penalties. but i have taking 40th level Crunk to the warrens and I did get the occasional 1 or 2 xp.

there is also creatures that to give level 40's xp but they are very powerful. In addition I might suggest removing any cap for a 40th level Char, since the only possible effect capping a 40th level char would be is to limit crafts such as artificing or high-level craft production.

[PlasmaJohn]

Correct. Zero XP for the 40's.

Why did the 40's get nothing?

because the probably had nasty xp penalties.

Only if they had 3 non-PrC classes and violated the preferred class rules and then only if the token xp calculation was changed. Otherwise they should have seen at least 1xp roughly every 2 or 3 kills. I'll grant that they may have missed the messages though.

but i have taking 40th level Crunk to the warrens and I did get the occasional 1 or 2 xp.

That's what I would expect.

[PlasmaJohn]

Observations from last night's trip:
Our Party: 40,28,21,20,15

The 40th got very little. Her levels are 32/4/4, the 32 is in her racial favored class, so should not suffer from any multiclass penalty. What she got xp for were the uber bugbears (Champions) in the Warrens. It did not look like 40 was special cased so I'll further speculate that this will also be the case for mid-high 30's. Not sure why token xp was taken away, there are some really tough mid-CR encounters out there. I strong suggest restoring it.

Frankly, I'm rather shocked how quickly a 21st hit the cap. I'm going to guess that would happen if I'm with a group that completes any one of Slavers, Minotaurs, Warrens, LRC, FoM, Spider Caves, NFM, Ferrell Orcs, Ferrell Hobgoblins, Mt. Cresc. (and these are just the ones I know).

My character has a commitment that requires some activity IG, so capped or not, she'll be working on that. I can only imagine somebody who doesn't have something like that. I know that without that commitment, I'd have a hard time trying to figure out what to do. To be completely honest, I'll be highly motivated to get at least one run in per week and then once I hit the cap not terribly motivated to go on any other, at least not without some other strong motivator (guild outing, part of a scripted quest, friend hasn't yet hit the cap, etc.). Even token xp would be enough to hold my interest.

I'd be much better off sitting at Elf Gate gossiping and discussing the weather and soaking up the random cookies. I've already heard a couple of DM's complaining that people hang around E.G. instead of dungeon crawling, the easy xp + cap is just going to exacerbate this behavior. Or worse, cause them to grind their cap and not log in for the rest of the week.

[Pathos Street]

[DanishPastry]

$0.02:

The speculations about how a new XP code will affect player behavior unfortunately is just that, speculations. Only from actually implementing said code and having it be live for a period of time will the Team be able to see exactly how it affects the world.

[Ensoleille]

I've already heard a couple of DM's complaining that people hang around E.G. instead of dungeon crawling

Okay, for as much as I make fun of Elysians and Elf Gate Orgies, The Team is actually complaining about people sitting around roleplaying?

[yorlik]

I've already heard a couple of DM's complaining that people hang around E.G. instead of dungeon crawling

Okay, for as much as I make fun of Elysians and Elf Gate Orgies, The Team is actually complaining about people sitting around roleplaying?

The so-called roleplaying at gathering points like Elfgate or the rock
actually often is mere chit-chat that often reminds me more of IRC than an RPG.

Unfortunately I often see, that people stop roleplaying, when in a dungeon.
It appears, as if people have difficulties in Roleplaying their PCs in a
combat situation or situations where combat might occur, kinda mental
overloading or so.

What I appreciate much in such situations is, when DMs start posessing
Critters and talk to the PCs in the dungeon, and thus give an impulse to
take the RP into the dungeon situations.

[PlasmaJohn]

Okay, for as much as I make fun of Elysians and Elf Gate Orgies, The Team is actually complaining about people sitting around roleplaying?

It's ~a~ form of socialization but it should not be the ~only~ form, and that was my point. We're supposed to be adventurers, you know, the ones doing the things people sit around and chat about. But if we're just gossipping at E.G. about who's shagging whom, that tends to get old if that's all we do.

Think about it from a DM perspective: it's a lot easier to hook people into plots if they're already off the beaten track. Attacking Elf Gate with the B.E.G. du jour has been done to death. It's as boring for the DM's as it is for the players. Also, attacking E.G. tends to attract everybody on the server.

Whatever. If chatting at E.G. is your thing, you're being compensated by the random cookies. If you're interested in DM interaction, go do something more active.

[gutemensch]

Sorry for commenting

But make the Elf Gate a scary place to hang out. Use to be if you stayed there any amount of time the boogie man got you.

[Nitro18]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Gorgon]

This thread was starting to be useful again at page 13. Don't derail it with something off topic Start a new thread maybe on the pros and cons of nuking EG with a dozen powderkegs?

[KaiRal Windspar]

Unfortunately I often see, that people stop roleplaying, when in a dungeon.
It appears, as if people have difficulties in Roleplaying their PCs in a
combat situation or situations where combat might occur, kinda mental
overloading or so.

1) Not everyone here can type like a maestro so very often, combat chatter just becomes a long string of delayed punchlines, followed by the obligitory 'What?' or 'Huh?' and winded explanations that just... don't work.
2) Having been in a few 'fights' and 'battles', even in simulated environments like the SCA and Airsoft - Conversation is not top priority. You want to play the Dashing Swordsman who can quip with every stroke and never miss a beat? More power to you. But I am gonna keep my fingers poised on the Heal pots and flinging feats at my enemies.

What I appreciate much in such situations is, when DMs start posessing Critters and talk to the PCs in the dungeon, and thus give an impulse to take the RP into the dungeon situations.

To be perfectly honest? I hate this. I hate this alot. It's one thing when a PC goes out of their way to subdue a creature for questioning, but it's another to just stop swinging just because this Bugbear is blue! And very often (and I have been grimaced at by DM's for it, yes), I will keep on swinging, anyway.

But that's my opinion.

[PlasmaJohn]

The speculations about how a new XP code will affect player behavior unfortunately is just that, speculations.

Yes, it's a guess. But it wasn't just me. At least 4 out of the 5 people in our party agreed with that assessment. Whether you like it or not, most people here are strongly motivated by xp and demotivated when they don't get it. Loot is a strong 2nd and is similarly both a motivator and demotivator.

People need some motivation to play. Doesn't need to be a very large motivation. For a few people intricate political maneuvering is sufficient, for others it's being social, others simply bashing monsters if they get something else out of it or not. Many people like to see some reward even if it's a token amount. At the other end, there are people around that feel that xp is paramount. Just like the only-socializers the xp-only segment is small. Those are the ones I'd expect to hit their nut and log.

I'll have to admit that I found the high xp awards a bit too generous. Hitting the cap within one dungeon is just too rapid (I count each NFM quarter as a single dungeon). Getting 100 per kill means my party needs 70 kills for me to hit the cap. At 5-10 spawns per encounter, that's 7-14 encounters. Many of the hotspots have well in excess of 20 encounters and could possibly even be up in the 50's.

IMO nobody should be able to hit the cap unless they hit at least 3-5 spots in any one week.

[Jaybob]

IMO nobody should be able to hit the cap unless they hit at least 3-5 spots in any one week.

Haven't tested the server, mostly because I don't think I would have any insights other, more experienced players haven't. However, I've been following this closely, and I completely agree. I'm one of those who would probably be getting a ton of XP under the new system, and I certainly wouldn't want to hit the cap in 30 minutes, or in one dungeon. That'd be a bummer.

-J