Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

[Tigg]

I really like this idea, the PG-limiting aspect is what's being focused on but I'm really excited about the opportunity of an increased incentive for characters of varying levels to group together... as well as the implied philosophy that the playerbase as a whole is trusted not to abuse it, and that those who do will be dealt with individually. (As opposed to making systemic changes to prevent a few people from being bad.)

As for PJ's thought, I had that too pretty quick myself.

I don't see how this helps with the PG "problem" unless you've gotten agreement by the rest of CoPaP to institue the same system and share the tracking. Those who wish to grind XP will go where the XP is.

So the only people this punishes are those who aren't in it for the grind.

But it should be noted that essentially then you'd be forcing all PG through just a couple different corridors, where a couple more tweaks could be made if necessary, or simply do some tracking on that corridor, or other check-and-balance things of that nature. It's also possible that if there were in fact some spillover into the rest of CoPaP, it 'might' not necessarily be considered a bad thing by those worlds. Sometimes you need to reach some critical minimum of people on the player list to get others to be interested in logging in.

One other possibility is that people with loads of time or whose playstyle is towards the xp-hound end of the spectrum will create more alts. You know... 7000 xp with that one, then switch to the other for another 7000, so on and so forth. Maybe that's good, maybe it's bad, I don't know.

Finally, while I log in most days for several hours, and have just the one character who likes his crafts and who's now above level 30, very rarely have I got over 7000 xp in one week.

-------------------------

I did think of one question while typing this: what about negative xp from scribing?

[Daecon]

Some interesting changes, it's not too often I react on anything though not through lack of opinion at times. It's good to have faith in a world's vision, though

The proposed changes seem interesting ways to handle problems we all know exist. Being able to help out a lowbie and them awarded for their time seems excellent - I'm in full support. The time based XP cap, I have mixed feelings on. I can understand the intention and reasons, and they are certainly worthy but it's a very time-dependant system. Some weeks my character's gained 0xp because of commitments stopping me from play, other times I've gone over due to plenty of time (holidays, etc). It's a tricky balance which everyone's individual RLs having a large influence on it.

Well some musings from a player, and it's not intended as criticism. I'm feeling some positive change with what's being suggested

[sinn]

all of the changes seem pretty cool to me..... the XP cap is something I figured would have went in years ago..

nice work team...!

will do a little testing once I get some time....

[Talwin Hawkins]

Lots of the changes sound very good to me. I like the fact that you can now play with lowbies without worrying about a) OMG im so totally killing the lowbies XP, i better unparty syndrome. and B) OMG the dm is so totally going to give me the smack down if i adventure with billy nolevels because he think i will be towing.

The cap for me personally is fine because of my playing habbits now, but i will say one thing. When i was a regular player of Avlis (7days a week - long times at weekends etc) I would quite often rack up more than 7k quite easily. Hell, a trip to a certain gnoll invested mountain would often yield almost as much as that if you were with the right party. Just something to think about.

[Tangleroot]

Xp cap is teh cool.

[itsabughunt]

- Traps and associates give XP to their creators/controllers.

Don't they already do that?

Or does this mean that only the creators/controllers get xp from those kills? If so this could create some hard feelings towards trappers/summoners.

[Calzier]

There is a an XP cap per kill of your level times ten or 200, whichever is smaller.

Wow - I can only think of a handful of times where I've received more than my level in XP from a kill (e.g. more than 10XP for a lvl 10 char.). most of the time I get more like Lvl/10 (or worse) - I didn't even think it was possible to get anywhere close to XP of lvlx10!

[Calzier]

(previous comment relates to existing /previous XP system - not the new one under testing here)

[Nob]

If folks are going off world regularly to circumvent the cap, it would be fairly obvious based on their levelling habits.

The only tracking of portal usage that I'm aware of are the vaultster server logs which would require some extra effort to retrieve and parse along with some retention issues.

No need for Vaultster logs.

Just pull up the character's login history and see how quickly they're leveling. Simply comparing database entries a week apart or even a month apart would give enough of an idea on who might be going out to get around the cap.

[Gorgon]

if I may ask; why is crafting and scripted experience not included in the cap? When I ask some superepics how they got so far, so fast, I often hear things as crafting and quest-collector experience.

Some higher level crafting ends up being a drain on xp, though not as much as scribing. Including it in the cap couldn't hurt though. I agree that quest-collector experience should be included, or the quests reduced quite a bit in the rewards.

Epics being able to party with low levels is a nice change, but towing might be an issue. I look forward to testing it with people tonight.

[theP]

would love to test, but can't right now because I'm away from my own comp.

but all in all I like the idea a lot, with the cap and the "plus-minus" of partying with lower/higher levels.
Another thing is the ideas Yorlik mentioned. Checking up on age of the characters (if possible) would be a fine solution.

[Ensoleille]

Just pull up the character's login history and see how quickly they're leveling. Simply comparing database entries a week apart or even a month apart would give enough of an idea on who might be going out to get around the cap.

Doesn't that require policing though? I thought we were trying to get away from that.

[theP]

........

I'm not sure if you wanted to adress my proposal above.
But a possible solution could be, if each PC carries its age (creation date)
on it, at least a discrepancy between age and levels could be determined.

E.G: If there is a cap of 15 days per level, and a level 20 PC is less than 300
days old he couldn't level until this age is reached, even if the PC comes from
another world.
This could probably be done relatively easy with little tewaking to the
portaling code.

this is what i meant above.

[CPU]

I don't see how this helps with the PG "problem" unless you've gotten agreement by the rest of CoPaP to institue the same system and share the tracking. Those who wish to grind XP will go where the XP is.

So the only people this punishes are those who aren't in it for the grind.

The PG'er will go where the massive doses of XP can be found flowing like a fountain in spring time. But, that just means they won't be here gobbling up Avlis resources, whether it's computer cycles, bandwith, monster spawns or crafting goods. AND you don't have to worry about your character's levels in relation to other player's levels when forming a party anymore. Your character won't nix the XP for the others. If you go someplace challenging for your character, and you are one of the higher levels in the party, you should get good XP (as if you were solo) and the younger adventurers should see increased XP. You get good XP with support help, the lesser adventurers will see increased XP. Everyone gets a challenge with the safety that often comes in groups. I'd call all of those benefits.

The players this is restricting are those that have found the best sweet-spots for the meteoric rise to Epic levels. After a day of hard core PG'ing, they'll have to learn to make potions, do some quests, or stop and smell the roses... but something other then go grind up some more monsters.

Most players are not going to hit 7000 XP in monster kills a week. Those that play alot, and who might reach the cap, can still do quests and crafting for XP afterwards if they choose. They could also go adventuring for the loot, or sit down and chat with other players at the various public meeting places.

The other CoPaP servers could always impliment the same code if PG'ers show up in droves and they consider it an issue for their server.

We aren't asking for discussions on alternate XP systems. Obviously, everyone has an idea of what they'd like to see. The focus of this thread is to get IG feedback on THIS test system. Testing the new code on the test server and providing feedback may reveal things we've overlooked, perhaps even concerns you are bringing up hypothetically, which is why we are asking for your help in play testing.

[GimpGenius]

Just did a little grouping in the LRC with MadK@ and a DM wand, and noticed a couple of things:

1) XP doesn't seem to be distributing correctly; with MK as a level 1 and my PC as a level 40 in the Dojo, both were getting 1-4 XP per kill. A level 1 PC mostly likely should've been getting more under the new code's effect.

2) Spawned a rather nasty mob and ended up with 250 XP after it went down. 200 should be the max, yes?

A few other issues:

1) Some of the skills seemed to be a little wonky, especially on the Dominator. I'm not sure where to forward those issues, but I can post them here if necessary.

2) I saw some pretty powerful items on an NPC merchant before I logged out, including one that I believe is a banned property. Again, I'm not sure if this is an issue with the test server itself, but I can forward information about that via PM.

[yorlik]

Most players are not going to hit 7000 XP in monster kills a week. Those that play alot, and who might reach the cap, can still do quests and crafting for XP afterwards if they choose. They could also go adventuring for the loot, or sit down and chat with other players at the various public meeting places.

I think gaining XP should become much easier and quicker together with the weekly or monthly cap.
I simply want to have time to actually RP and Level my PC without
having to play 24/7.
It always annoys me, when I see I have to trade XP against RP,
becuase of naturally limited time.
Gaining XP should never hinder the time for RPing.

[CPU]

Most players are not going to hit 7000 XP in monster kills a week. Those that play alot, and who might reach the cap, can still do quests and crafting for XP afterwards if they choose. They could also go adventuring for the loot, or sit down and chat with other players at the various public meeting places.

I think gaining XP should become much easier and quicker together with the weekly or monthly cap.
I simply want to have time to actually RP and Level my PC without
having to play 24/7.
It always annoys me, when I see I have to trade XP against RP,
becuase of naturally limited time.
Gaining XP should never hinder the time for RPing.

Okay great, but this in not a discussion thread for what you'd like a new XP system to be. If you want to continue discussing what you'd like in an XP system, please start a thread for it in General Discussion. The Team reads those too. Otherwise, go play on the test server and provide feedback on the new system. That is what this thread is for. Thanks!

[Dirk Cutlass]

I just retired my gnome ranger Fred (again ) because of the difficulty in leveling him. Basically, nothing he could kill gave any XP. The only way to XP from kills was to party-up and be tracker / scout, etc. But this new system would mean he would get same XP as if he was soloing, so basically back to no XP again.

(And before someone says, well Fred could always have taken up crafting or doing quests... well, I don't think you should be forced to take up crafting or whatever, just to gain XP (that would be totally meta-gaming). An adventuring character type should be able to make some XP from adventuring, IMHO).

It won't affect Fred, because he's retired. But it will affect characters like Fred, i.e. the ones that aren't "Power Builds".

Just my thoughts.

[Dirk Cutlass]

(PS to above note.. (lack of edit )

Of course, I guess Fred could have gone with much higher lvl folks, but I would have felt like I was being towed, and not pulling my weight. I guess I could have done it, but wouldn't feel as good as earning my own XP.

[Tigg]

Nothing that says they'd have to be higher level. A group of non-powerbuilt characters are much more powerful working together, than a lone NON powerbuilt character.

[MadK@]

Just did a little grouping in the LRC with MadK@ and a DM wand, and noticed a couple of things:

1) XP doesn't seem to be distributing correctly; with MK as a level 1 and my PC as a level 40 in the Dojo, both were getting 1-4 XP per kill. A level 1 PC mostly likely should've been getting more under the new code's effect.

2) Spawned a rather nasty mob and ended up with 250 XP after it went down. 200 should be the max, yes?

I took another look at this and it is working correctly.
There is a an XP cap per kill of your level times ten or 200, whichever is smaller. So basically if the CR is +10 your level it is capped or if you going to get more than 200xp it is capped.
Which explains the 1-4 for the high CR but there is a bug with the 200 part


A few other issues:

1) Some of the skills seemed to be a little wonky, especially on the Dominator. I'm not sure where to forward those issues, but I can post them here if necessary.

2) I saw some pretty powerful items on an NPC merchant before I logged out, including one that I believe is a banned property. Again, I'm not sure if this is an issue with the test server itself, but I can forward information about that via PM.

Please send a pm for the above two issues.

[PlasmaJohn]

But, that just means they won't be here gobbling up Avlis resources, whether it's computer cycles, bandwith, monster spawns or crafting goods.

Untrue. It is already easier to gain encounter kill xp off-world in certain circumstances. The net result is that many Avlis people already planewalk specifically to hit those spots and then come back. All a cap will do is encourage the abberent behavior.

[aquasoup]

The immediate issue I see would be the week in the 7000/week cap, a proportion of your playerbase may not have a constant X hours per week, some weeks or even months I'm on contract and have 0 hours to spare for playing - others I have large amounts of free time allweek.

Any type of system that might track xp possible to pc creation date, or over a longer timescale generally than a lone week - e.g. 84k per quarter is far more attractive than 7k per week despite being exactly the same amount per week - it means you don't need to worry if some weeks you have more playtime and feel penalised, or other weeks feel a little pressure to "make your cap" rather than going at your own pace because you only have a couple of hours max that week.

I've run into this per/week issue elsewhere.
I.E. if you put in the exact same hours per year as a player who plays X hours per week every week, but your hours happen to just be distributed inside a 3month period - you are only allowed to level 4 times slower.

[ace4lyyfe]

But, that just means they won't be here gobbling up Avlis resources, whether it's computer cycles, bandwith, monster spawns or crafting goods.

Untrue. It is already easier to gain encounter kill xp off-world in certain circumstances. The net result is that many Avlis people already planewalk specifically to hit those spots and then come back. All a cap will do is encourage the abberent behavior.

Too true, the players will first grab 7k in monsters kills, then they'll hop off world and pg until their eyes bleed, then they'll come back.

I like the way higher levels won't suck xp anymore from the lower levels. Thumbs up to whoever made this stuff happen.

[Deider]

if I may ask; why is crafting and scripted experience not included in the cap? When I ask some superepics how they got so far, so fast, I often hear things as crafting and quest-collector experience.

To cap the XP from scripted quests you'd have to change the script that gives XP for each quest. That's... a lot of scripts

I just retired my gnome ranger Fred (again :8 ) because of the difficulty in leveling him. Basically, nothing he could kill gave any XP. The only way to XP from kills was to party-up and be tracker / scout, etc. But this new system would mean he would get same XP as if he was soloing, so basically back to no XP again.

Something that wasn't announced but is probably OK to reveal is that XP is calculated slightly differently. The biggest change being that there's no longer a restriction based on your PC's HD vs. the creature's CR. You used to not get any XP if the difference between those numbers was more than 10 or something. Now, as long as the formula being used spits out a number higher than 1, you get XP. So some creatures that used to not give you XP, will now

(or at least they should - might be a good idea to test that out )