Martial Feat-Psions

llhht · Post by **llhht** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:28 am

Since my question wasn't answered earlier

, why can psions not take this feat?

CPU · Post by **CPU** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:10 am

Actually, it was answered. Psions cannot take this feat because it is not allowed. Not every class gets every feat. It's no different then asking why a Fighter cannot take UMD. It's not allowed. If you want UMD, you take levels in Rogue.

This is how the class was designed on Avlis. The information on this was available to you before you made the the choices in creating your character. The best I can suggest is that you either buy your metal from other players, guilds or p-merchants, or take a class that does allow for the feat, and then take it.

No one hap-hazzardly slapped together, "Psions," and accidentally left out the martial feat. These sorts of design issues tend to be hashed out, ad nauseum, on the Team boards. The class was designed by the Team in regards to the NWN engine, it's limitations, also for balance and fairness, and for the Vision of the World of Avlis.

llhht · Post by **llhht** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:37 am

While your posts relating to this weren't quite the friendliest CPU, I'll just say this:

CPU wrote:The information on this was available to you before you made the the choices in creating your character.

This information was not available to me when I made my character. I had no reason to think it so I didn't bring it up in a post, and the wiki still says nothing about psions and their odd weapon feats. It isn't stickied in the Monk and Psion forum, and I don't have much intent on testing 2 year old links and haks

I spent about a week's worth of lunch-hours and breaks looking up information on the class in the wiki and the posts and I did not see anything relating to this.

IF I had known about it, I would have taken Martial at first lvl, but I found out like many others when I lvled in psion and found this feat not there.

All these feat restrictions make no sense at all to me. Even though I'm not one, most Psions are crazy self-buffing fools that can take down an army and a half when they get buffed and ready. Which would make it rather easy for them to learn weapons.

If anything (though most Psions that do just what I mentioned above probably won't agree with me

) this class should be a little more like a PnP Psion. d4 HD sounds fine, even Wizard AB progression is fine, hell even nerfing some of our Psychometabolism powers some is fine (they do honestly need it, since most of us can solo MUCH beyond our lvl), I just believe that a Psion should be a....Psion, with real USEFUL Psion powers, not a buffing machine who is unable to learn how to smack a hammer into some rocks.

llhht

DorianHawkwind · Post by **DorianHawkwind** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:06 am

-Something not stated by a team member-

Alexyzar · Post by **Alexyzar** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:55 pm

-Something else not stated by a team member-

Post by **MadK@** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:04 pm

Discuss all you want now.

chamalscuro · Post by **chamalscuro** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:25 pm

llhht, I don't understand all the trouble. Psions can't be "pure" on Avlis anyway. You had to take at least one level of something before becoming a psion. Could you not take another level of "it" on a feat level, pick up Martial Weapons, and be done with it?

Post by **Jazz** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:39 pm

If you couldn't find any info when you made your Psion, all you had to do is ask other players & team, and you would have gotten answers.

Levis Pie · Post by **Levis Pie** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:45 pm

what he's trying to say is (i beleive) that he had no reason to think otherwise, so why ask? probably would've turned out better, if asked, but oh well.

You had to take at least one level of something before becoming a psion. Could you not take another level of "it" on a feat level, pick up Martial Weapons, and be done with it?

Post by **Jazz** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:55 pm

Assuming your question remark is an actual question, I'll explain: You can't take Psion on level 1, only from level 2 and up. So an Avlis Psion will always have at least 1 other Class level. You could have used this class and choosen feat available to take Martial.

Shardthepious · Post by **Shardthepious** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:40 pm

If you really want something that ''explain'' why they don't have it..let's see it this way:

Mental power is something that requier a LOT of dedication and concentration practicing and understanding the basic of the universe and mattter.

Being able to wield any weapon with enough practice to not hurt yourself is something that requier a LOT of practice and dedication. And since most Psion can develop power that permit them to ''hurt'' opponent without those heavy weapons to manipulate, why bothering practicing with them?

So that's a bit why a psion do not have this choice of feat. And for the game engine side , to balance the class vs the other class.

So here it is, you have the why IC and also the why Game Engine.
It's a great deal!! two for one!!

Cephid · Post by **Cephid** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:12 pm

OK,

I've stayed quiet on this and the similar thread for a while, but here is my two cents worth (In case anyone is listening). And my appologies if it strays from the exact topic of Feat - Martial.

First and foremost: The Psion Class Rocks! It is unique to CoPAP (at least I've not seen any other PWs that implement Mr. Nathans Version) and there is a veritable ton of RP flavor available from all the abilities (even the nerfed ones).

Now that said. Could the class do with improvements. Sure. I find the fact that the entire field of telepathy can be blocked by a first level spell particularly annoying. And the arguments about DCs frankly don't make much sense to me when I've seen the DCs generated by some other classes (Ultrablast for example, when I've seen mages fire off Wails with DCs in the 30s). You know what though? It is what it is. The team made the decisions it did based off the way the class was played IG and the need to bring things back into reason.

The basic fact is that, a Psion on Hala for instance, (where powers like disintegrate and ultrablast are not nerfed) can lay waste to entire areas alone. Could a mage do that and escape? Sure! And actually the most effective soloer I've ever seen was a wizard. Frankly, neither class should be able to do that. Why have psions been nerfed when wizards haven't been? Don't know, and don't care. I don't play a wizard. And you know what, It's not about balance and never has been.

So here are some facts about Avlis psions.
1. If you are playing a "pure" Psion you will never be as powerful a PC as you could be. Psion on Avlis is a multiplier class. The exact way this works out depends on the class you're mixing with. For some its just a few psion levels for others its alot. A psion fighter can kick but. A psion monk is darn near a power build. A psion cleric is a buffing machine and a psion wizard/sorcerer can do an incredible amount of ranged damage. For example a 10/5 Fighter/Psion could do the following (Assuming a STR of 16 to start): get a collective +7 to hit +5 to Damage, 50% Concealment, and Armor Class Bonus of +5. Oh and regenerate PSP so when those buffs fade take a minute and rebuff. It may not be how you ~wanted to get it~ but you get it none the less. Bottom line is if you're going for power you can get it with a psion. Should it be that way? Don't know. It is what it is.
2. Having a Psion that specializes in Telepathy is like having a mage that specializes in Illusion. Awesome idea in PnP (Although it is debatable, well played illusionists are some of the most powerfull PnP builds). Good luck with that in NWN. It doesn't work.
3. Your psions telepathy and other abilities make for great RP. They are a break from the usual magic.
4. Some new powers would be awesome. But I recognize how much effort it takes to get those in coding wise. Also, the rest of Avlis finally seems to have stopped griping about how "overpowered" Psions are. That is a huge bonus. Back before the nerfs I use to go with a group and not get offered buffs because Shiloh "was a psion and didn't need it." That was with groups that I was well below the level of the front line I was standing with. Now I get buffed along with everyone else. I've finally stopped getting treated like a dirty powergammer when people first meet me because I chose to play a psion. If getting new powers meant bringing back that prejudice then to hell with the new powers I like my class the way it is.
5) The well played psion requires IMHO a great deal of finess and skill. The RP possibilities are endless. An example of this is the psion RP guide for telepathy available on the Ysgard page (yeah I'm too lazy to post the link so just go look for it). If you've not read it, please do. It is just an example of what you can do with those telepathic powers in an RP situation.

Bottom line is the team has given those of us who play psions a great gift of a class that works for the most part. It has its flaws but they can be compensated for and the team doesn't have the time to revamp things because they are a tad annoying or don't match PnP.

Maybee one day I'll learn to code and have the time to help out. Till then...

Just my 2 Cents
Cephid

Kinarr · Post by **Kinarr** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:23 pm

I'm pretty sure I've posted this already in the Monk/Psion forum, but this is right out of 2E PnP, which the current implementation of psionics is based on.

Weapons: Psionicists tend to disdain weapons of any sort, given the crudeness and imprecision of such tools compared to psychic weaponry. Still, a good sidearm is indispensable for a last-ditch personal defense, and it's essential when a display of psionic power would be inappropriate. Also, in the rough-and-tumble frontier areas where adventurers are common, appearing in public without a weapon often invites ridicule and trouble. Psionicists can use any of the common weapons listed below. Essentially, these are most small- or medium-sized weapons weighing 6 pounds or less.

short bow,throwing axe, hand crossbow, horseman's mace, light crossbow , horseman's pick,dagger, scimitar, dirk, spear, knife, short sword, club, war hammer, hand axe

This is the reason psions only get simple, rogue, and druid weapon proficiencies, as they most closely match what psions were able to use in PnP.

zsenf · Post by **zsenf** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:47 pm

I have to agree with Kinarr and Cephid about the strengths and weaknesses of psions and their general disdain for weapons, and add this in:

Since this is a computer game, there's no way all the versatility (which is the main strength of psions in PnP) could work. Telekenesis, for instance-in PnP, I used this to pull hoods over ppls faces, blinding them, pull weapons out of thier sheathes, stab their allies, and make it look like dissention in the ranks, and since there's no verbal or somatic components, do it all from the shadows.

Since this is a computer game, the lack of creative options means it's got to be replaced with something. I think the raw power is a fine substitute for the sick versatility in PnP. It's only fair that psionics unhide you now, as an undetectable psionicist would be too tempting for even me to play non-evil.

Still not as much pwnage as battlemages, or cleric/WMs, but we still got the endurance factor, and free choice of what powers to use in a day.

-my 2 cp

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:35 pm

Okay, I multi-classed to psion almost as soon as it was available. That was almost 2 years ago, I think. Since then, I've taken about ten levels of that class, and 8 of my original class. While psions are good with the buffs, and decent with some sorts of attacks, they were never really powerbuilds. Not in the way that some other classes are. The reason everyone was screaming for nerfing has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with prejudice against the class in general, be it PnP or NWN, and the fact that some very annoying people went to the same areas over and over again, used the same abilities again and again, and got caught by the team again and again. The powergaming was seen as a flaw and in the class, some of the Team said "I told you so" and the whole class was tweaked and nerfed.

I've also been around long enough to have heard the "mining shouldn't require martial weapon feat" more times than I care to count. Hell, I even said it a few times. That one is a horselich from hell.

As for the rest of it, there is a reason why I have 20 monk levels on my main character, and it really has nothing to do with powerbuilding. Ask anyone, my character dies more times than the winner of the pussy mage award. The fact that I can buff him halfway decently by myself comes from a long-time prejudice against giving monks any buffs at all. That one came from 2nd ed. purists who thought the monk class was overpowered. So, what I'm saying, I guess, is that altering your character to do something trivial like craft armor you can't wear or weapons you can't use just seems silly. But, if you really want to do it, go to Kuras. You can buy iron there, make it into armor, get contracts for armor and weapons, and make a ton of coin in the process. Either that or buy it from a PC, or get one of the three pairs of gloves that have the martial weapon feat on it. Your choice. Any of the above is more likely than the team changing the class to let one person mine. If it's gem mining, I suppose your only choice is other characters, but if you stand guard over them, I'm sure you'll find lots of people to help you.

llhht · Post by **llhht** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:22 pm

Shardthepious wrote:If you really want something that ''explain'' why they don't have it..let's see it this way:

Mental power is something that requier a LOT of dedication and concentration practicing and understanding the basic of the universe and mattter.

Being able to wield any weapon with enough practice to not hurt yourself is something that requier a LOT of practice and dedication. And since most Psion can develop power that permit them to ''hurt'' opponent without those heavy weapons to manipulate, why bothering practicing with them?

So that's a bit why a psion do not have this choice of feat. And for the game engine side , to balance the class vs the other class.

So here it is, you have the why IC and also the why Game Engine.
It's a great deal!! two for one!!

I could kiss you Shard, all this hubub and I get an actual answer

Though I could argue more about how their practicing weapons is no different than a Wizard doing it, I won't because I'm a happy camper now.