Dual-classing in two spellcaster classes

[Fifty]

Now, I know what you are thinking, it is hardly sensible, is it? And you are right, but not as much as you might think, and well, us crazy Avlis folks like to play concepts, not builds, right?

I've thought mainly about

The obvious thing is that you'll take much much longer to get high level spells. No way I can disagree there, and this is the big problem, obviously. How bad this problem is depends on whether you do an even advancement in each class, or leave one until later. The fact that mages are especially weedy at low levels makes this problem particularly acute. I won't hide that. On the other hand, if you ever reach level 40, who the hell wants to face a level 20/20 Sorceror/Wizard? And a level 15 sorc/level 5 wiz has a few advantages too... Overall though, until high epic, it is a disadvantage. Now we have that most obvious disadvantage out of the way

For seconds, you'll have to concentrate on two stats instead of one... Very true. You'll have to decide what to take at level up, and you'll have to decide what rings to wear, but I've never yet seen an amulet to improve charisma, nor a belt, cloak or helm that ups Intelligence. Careful juggling plus use of potions ought to get you pretty high up in both. Another way around this would be to multi-class in a way where the prime requisites are complimentary, such as bard and sorceror or sorceror and cleric.

Now, your caster level will always be lower. Not much can be done about that, but you can focus on taking spells that do not rely on caster level. This too has disadvantges, as you will be casting spells that give saves, and that relies on spell level, and you will not be casting high evel spells, sop DCs will be low, but with high enough enough stats to get those DCs up, and with some spell focuses, you could do well, and there are spells out there that give neither saves or are caster level determines (They just aren't very good...) Necromancy in particular has lots spells of use. And there are very very few spells that aren't cappped at some number, so eventually, you'll be hitting a max anyway on those spells.

If you take the cleric/other option, a big downside is that you will not be able to wear armour any more and take advantage of the fact you can wear armuor and cast divine spells.

One thing that is good is that if you take spell feats, you'll have many more spells to apply them to. Well, no you won't, because you will have less high level spells, but more spells at each level. This is where a level 15 sorceror, level 5 wizard would be nice. Or you could take Pale Master levels and get extra spells for both classes every two levels

Overall, I don't think I have been very convincing, but think about it, how useful are your Epic Spells really? It might be fun to try this, neh?

[Khaelindra]

Well, speaking as a dual-dual-class spellcaster (20 druid / 10 wizard / 7 rogue) i can tell you that there are a few plusses and minuses, which basically boil down to:

* multi is fun due to it's diversity (especially the divine/arcane multi of course, sorc/wizard won't have that) and it's sheer number of spells

* multi is weak because of it's vulnerability (dispels work well against you) and it's offensive ineffectiveness (both due to lower level spells and spread-out stats, as you said; the result is that i don't even bother casting offensive spells which don't do stuff on succesful saves)

A level 40 wizard will blast a lvl 20 sorc/ level 20 wizard out of the sky any time due to the sheer focus on one set of abilities combined by an unbeatable casterlevel. However, a 20 cleric / 20 wizard can buff an entire party to godhood where the level 40 singleclass probalby has only one spell per spellevel more than a lvl 20, and that's assuming a much higher stat.

If your focus is on making an effective solo-er or CvC-char or generally powerfully hitting char, go primarily singleclass (possibly with a few fighter- or roguelevels for optimum attacks and feats). If your focus is on diversity and party-buffing, go dual.

[Khaelindra]

As an extra note: if you like to have some leverage at medium level with a dual-class caster, develop one class a good deal before the other, having a main class and a support-class. A cleric 15 / wizard 5 instead of cleric 10 / wizard 10.

[robocod]

The only reason I can see of dual-classing sorc/wiz would be for the quantity of sorc spells (and the fact that you don't have to memorize them) plus the flexibility of hw wizard (bigger spell book). Other than that, their spells are the same, stats are different, etc. so you'd have to split up your bonuses, ability increases, etc. Either that or just concentrate on 1.

Bard/sorc obviously gives benefit of sharing CHA ability. And their spell books are different.

Cleric/Druid shares WIS ability and some differences in spells.

Cleric/Sorc (or Wiz) is problem for armor, unless you Still Spell everything. But then you have to decide what role he/she will play - e.g. support role, front-liner, offense arcane power, etc.

Anyway, the concept as a whole is an interesting one, and I did at one point contemplate rolling up some sort of "shaman", i.e. prayers from spirit gods and some inate arcane. Probably a cleric / sorc, or druid/sorc.

EDIT: don't forget to think about favoured classes and races, etc. you wouldn't want to get stung with multi-class penalty.

[Dimotane]

I levelled Pyracanum up Wizard Psion 50/50 and what I ended up with at lvl 16 was a swiss army knife character. But a very small, inneffective knife, possibly made out of cardboard. He can do so many different things, but compared to a pure Psion or Wizard of the same level he's wank.

As you've already said, multi-classing caster with caster means no Soloing or PvP in any way, unless you're fighting opponents far below you.

I didn't have too much trouble raising two caster stats instead of one, managed to get WIS 26 and INT 22 which isn't too bad especially if you specialize as a Wiz for an extra spell per level.


If it's purely for RP then go for it, there are some chars who've done quite well in it, Sammy V, Jad and Krator come to mind straight away.


On the plus side, if you pick a Wiz/Druid you can have dual panthers as your familiar/companion at the same time, which always looks cool.

[Khaelindra]

I

On the plus side, if you pick a Wiz/Druid you can have dual panthers as your familiar/companion at the same time, which always looks cool.

Remember the Pack...

dire wolf form Divinia +
dire wolf companion +
dire wolf summoned +
dire wolf dominated (Animal Empathy)
+
Ranger friend with
dire wolf companion +
dire wolf summoned +
dire wolf dominated +

A ranger leading a HORDE of seven wolves... that was SOOOOOOO cool!

[Fire Monkey]

On the plus side, if you pick a Wiz/Druid you can have dual panthers as your familiar/companion at the same time, which always looks cool.

I have this as Ranger/Wiz

I would like to see some discussion here of the rp reasons for some of these character builds. In my mind Wizards and Sorcerers are pretty much incompatible. One represents dedication to the art, discipline, hours spent with a head in a book etc. the other represents a lazy good for nothing who just happens to be some freak who can do magicy type things without any academic understanding of how! (I might be a bit biased on this subject).

Eitherway I find it hard to see how both classes could be compatible within one character. Personally I think there should always be some sort of natural distrust between Sorcerers and Wizards, though sadly I have never really seen this played out in any RP in Avlis, especially with the big smiley happy mage family that is the Trust.

The only character build I could imagine with those two classes is either a Sorc who turns his back on his "natural" abilities and devotes himself to leearning Arcane lore. Or a Wizard who has an awakening of his latent arcane abilities. In either case one would think that the build would start out with one and then be entirely replaced by the otherm rather than for them to be levelled up side by side.

[Dimotane]

Well Sorcs still need to learn how to mold the Vortex energy just like Wizards. They have to learn the voice commands, physical motions and what not. But yeah, you'd probably be one or the other IMO.

Same problem with Cleric/Druid, as both gain their spells from the deity, though not so pronounced. I could see a Cleric/Druid being a Shamanistic type of character.

Wizard/Psions are a good match as it's all very mental and psions can do alot of what I'd invisage a Wizard to be able to do anyway. Teleporting, mental attacks, ect.

Cleric/Sorc would be an interesting one, kind of an Arcane Theurge. Especially if worshipping Angadar or Andrinor.





P.S.
4 Wolves would be sweet

[Gumble Tinkertumble]

One thing to note, I tested a wiz/sorc/palemaster a while back. It only increases the number of spells from one of the caster classes, not both. Can't remember if it was the higher of the two, or the first one you take that gets the palemaster spell bonuses though.

[Fifty]

dire wolf form Divinia +
dire wolf companion +
dire wolf summoned +
dire wolf dominated (Animal Empathy)

I wondered if you could get that up to 5 by using a spell to dominate another one, or would that loe the animal empathy dominated one?

[Thalarian Arc'Thass]

what about a cleric/wizard in full plate with auto still spell III ? that'd be cool, did we ever have a cleric/wizard?

[Fifty]

One thing to note, I tested a wiz/sorc/palemaster a while back. It only increases the number of spells from one of the caster classes, not both. Can't remember if it was the higher of the two, or the first one you take that gets the palemaster spell bonuses though.

[spool32]

Eitherway I find it hard to see how both classes could be compatible within one character. Personally I think there should always be some sort of natural distrust between Sorcerers and Wizards, though sadly I have never really seen this played out in any RP in Avlis...

You need to get Sammy Valorian and Peregryne Twostep in the same room and ask them about it. They had an argument about Wiz vs. Sorc through Hert for a while, it was great fun.



-spool32

[Fire Monkey]

Eitherway I find it hard to see how both classes could be compatible within one character. Personally I think there should always be some sort of natural distrust between Sorcerers and Wizards, though sadly I have never really seen this played out in any RP in Avlis...

You need to get Sammy Valorian and Peregryne Twostep in the same room and ask them about it. They had an argument about Wiz vs. Sorc through Hert for a while, it was great fun.



-spool32

Ha thats more like it. As a Wizard deep down Del distrusts all sorcerers, thinking that they have no real understanding or appreciation of their arcane abilities. Wizards and Sorcerers are chalk and cheese when it comes down to it.

Whilst we are on the subject: Sorcerers have an innate ability to cast spells, which requires no formal study. Equally compared to a wizard of the same level Sorcerers generally no only a handful of spells. So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

[Calzier]

So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

Innate understanding, improved upon by experience?

[Ghostie]

So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

With my sorcerer I've always figured the ranks in spellcraft was natural intuition/instinct of the art, with picking up bits from books and lessons along the way, though my sorcerer is an apprentice to a wizard so I'm guessing that would help a lot IC.

[Fifty]

If nothing else, this thread has brough tup an interesting possible slant on wizards and sorcerors that could be exploited in a new setting...

[Dimotane]

There's a simple distinction between Wizards and Sorcerers:



Sorcs are sexy, Wizards are ugly.

[chamalscuro]

Whilst we are on the subject: Sorcerers have an innate ability to cast spells, which requires no formal study. Equally compared to a wizard of the same level Sorcerers generally no only a handful of spells. So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

Spellcraft is used to identify spells and to perform Counterspell. Spellcraft does require training, but nothing says it has to be learned through college courses. Sorcs would learn it "out in the field."

[Fire Monkey]

So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

With my sorcerer I've always figured the ranks in spellcraft was natural intuition/instinct of the art, with picking up bits from books and lessons along the way, though my sorcerer is an apprentice to a wizard so I'm guessing that would help a lot IC.

It depends on what sort of Sorcerer you play. I always thought that a true sorcerer would despise wizards for their bookish and closeted view on the world (too busy with the head in the books to know whats really going on) as well as generally looking down on them for having to read so damned much to make up for not have any natural arcane ability. These types of sorcerers I guess wouldnt want to be an apprentice to a wizard (what would they have to learn from them anyway?) or wish to pick up anything from a book.

Epic ranks in spellcraft I don't think can reflect a sorcerer's "life experience" of picking up bits and pieces along the way. Afterall a sorcerer may only have a handful of spells they have ever been able to cast themselves, whereas any self-respecting wizard will learn hundreds of spells (perhaps even all known spells). There is no comparison between the two in that respect.

A wizard must learn all of these spells individually by scribing them into his spell book. At level 25 then he can rightly claim to justify his spell ranks to be able to indentify a spell being cast. A sorcerer on the otherhand should have no spell book, indeed they do not even need to learn spells, they just simply know them. How a lvl 25 Sorc uses his epic spell ranks to recognise a spell that he has never cast or learnt or known I don't quite understand.

Of course a worse problem occurs when you think that both the Wizard and the Sorcerer can also recognise every single divine spell when they know about as much as divine magic as your local dumb barbarian. I guess a lot of this comes back to game engine limitations that we can't do much about.

[Fire Monkey]

Whilst we are on the subject: Sorcerers have an innate ability to cast spells, which requires no formal study. Equally compared to a wizard of the same level Sorcerers generally no only a handful of spells. So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

Spellcraft is used to identify spells and to perform Counterspell. Spellcraft does require training, but nothing says it has to be learned through college courses. Sorcs would learn it "out in the field."

*points up*

[Istahire]

To me, for a sorcerer taking points in spellcraft is a way of learning more about how others uses magic, in order to identify others' use of magic, so one's own powers can be used most effectively. They gain a way to explain and understand the powers they wield, instead of just acting on instinct alone.

And yes, if you want to be a bad warrior and a bad spellcaster, be a bard. They can't do much on their own (unless multiclassed), but a party with one can become a lot stronger when the bard uses their songs when it matters. Bard/Cleric is cool also - becoming the voice of your god, so to speak It also enhances the bard's ability to function in a supportive rôle, which is about the only thing (except entertaining others) a bard is made to do well

[Dimotane]

So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

With my sorcerer I've always figured the ranks in spellcraft was natural intuition/instinct of the art, with picking up bits from books and lessons along the way, though my sorcerer is an apprentice to a wizard so I'm guessing that would help a lot IC.

It depends on what sort of Sorcerer you play. I always thought that a true sorcerer would despise wizards for their bookish and closeted view on the world (too busy with the head in the books to know whats really going on) as well as generally looking down on them for having to read so damned much to make up for not have any natural arcane ability. These types of sorcerers I guess wouldnt want to be an apprentice to a wizard (what would they have to learn from them anyway?) or wish to pick up anything from a book.

Epic ranks in spellcraft I don't think can reflect a sorcerer's "life experience" of picking up bits and pieces along the way. Afterall a sorcerer may only have a handful of spells they have ever been able to cast themselves, whereas any self-respecting wizard will learn hundreds of spells (perhaps even all known spells). There is no comparison between the two in that respect.

A wizard must learn all of these spells individually by scribing them into his spell book. At level 25 then he can rightly claim to justify his spell ranks to be able to indentify a spell being cast. A sorcerer on the otherhand should have no spell book, indeed they do not even need to learn spells, they just simply know them. How a lvl 25 Sorc uses his epic spell ranks to recognise a spell that he has never cast or learnt or known I don't quite understand.

Of course a worse problem occurs when you think that both the Wizard and the Sorcerer can also recognise every single divine spell when they know about as much as divine magic as your local dumb barbarian. I guess a lot of this comes back to game engine limitations that we can't do much about.

There are loads of ways someone who is attuned to the flows of the arcane can tell what spell is what. When a Sorc gets to lvl 21+ their imagination and magical senses are so powerful the magic is literally flowing through them.

Besides, as you said Fire Monkey, it all depends on what kind of Sorcerer you are. In Avlis there are very few Sorcerers who are not in an Order and each Order has hundreds of trainers and thousands of colleagues with their own libraries full of arcane knowledge.

A Sorcerer still has to learn how to use magic. You're not born with the ability to cast wail.

[robocod]

Whilst we are on the subject: Sorcerers have an innate ability to cast spells, which requires no formal study. Equally compared to a wizard of the same level Sorcerers generally no only a handful of spells. So how come every epic sorcerer has 40 ranks in Spellcraft? What does that represent? Sorcerers don't need to spend anytime studying the arcane but they all choose to anyway?

Spellcraft is used to identify spells and to perform Counterspell. Spellcraft does require training, but nothing says it has to be learned through college courses. Sorcs would learn it "out in the field."

*points up*

Just because on the level-up screen you put points in SpellCraft doesn't necessarily mean you have to study and what-not. My fighter puts points in Discipline, but I don't do it by reading about it, its all down to practise and use.

Why can't the same be true for SpellCraft, i.e. exposure to arcane (I mean just being around and using magic a lot) you get to know about spells, i.e. increased SpellCraft check.

Of course you could interpret this differently, maybe your wizzy does learn this from books, or deduction, etc. Whereas your sorc learns by intuition, or ripples in the fabric of the unvierse or whatever.

I think the problem, Fire Monkey, is that you have a view of how things should be and maybe that isn't necessarily the only view. Isn't there a mantra or quote somewhere on these boards, that says something like "don't tell people how to play their PCs"?

[itsabughunt]

I think Fire Monkey had an interesting point actually. Why can wizards ID Sorc spells? Why can sorcs ID cleric spells? Why can wizards ID psionics? Why can psionicists ID wizard, sorc and cleric spells?

One answer: Spellcraft. Due to game mechanic issues we have one skill covering the identification of every conceivable spell or power. This probably has roots in PnP as well. My opinion is that it would be far more believable if there were seperate spellcraft type skills for each class, or at least something in that direction. But I have no illusions that this is going to change for NWN Avlis.