Exactly how stupid is a character with 6 int?

[Alex III]

Please excuse me if the question's been asked before, but the forums are huge and just finding the right place to ask wasn't a trivial task in itself.

It seems to me that people here expect a character with 6 int to speak with grammatical errors and be just on the borders of pathological stupidity, which - I think - is not necessarily the case. Here's my reasoning.

10 int is the average for humans, which means that half the people will be smarter than that, and half will be slower. Chances are when you speak with a random person on the street, he'll be as likely on the one-digit side of int as on the brighter side. Now tell me when was the last time you spoke with a grown-up who was messing up his grammar?
Let's say in RL I have like 14 int. That's not exceptional at all, so - to keep the average - somewhere there's a guy with 6 int - who will be just as unremarkable as me. And, just as you can't tell I'm above average in a two-sentence conversation, you can't tell that he's actually dull. Or *how* dull he is. Sure, he'll appear slow in the long run, but if you show him a square shaped hole and give him a triangle, circle and square inlet, he'll figure out pretty quickly which goes where. My guess is that a child of 6-7 years of age would have about 6 int in average. So I think RP-ing my char like that child is a good guideline. And that doesn't include messing up grammar or being a complete brickhead. On the contrary, children can be amusing in a conversation, and certainly don't appear as pathological idiots.

[Krator]

14 int IRL is quite intelligent. Not 'unremarkable.' Also, someone with high int will have less trouble looking average than someone with low int.

6 int is the intelligence of a troll, for comparison.

[Gurky_Bogglewig]

Dat am plain nonsums ! Mes intellicengens of 6 are mean me smurtur den youse. Mes so smart, me can write one plus one which am be five ! Hur, hur, hur !

[Calzier]

It was once suggested that INT relates to IQ by a factor of 10... e.g. INT 10 = 100 IQ, so an INT of 14 or 15 would be an IQ of 140 or 150. This is very high. An INT of 6 would then correspond to IQ of 60, which is likely to be associated with poor learning abilities, limited social skills, reduced linguist capacity.

However, that was in the days when 18 was seen as exceptional, the max a stat could reach was 25, and stats between 20 & 25 were godlike. Literally.

[Alphonse]

Ever seen Dumb and Dumberer?

I see INT 6 as being like that. Their own thoughts make perfect sense to themselves, but they cant express them, and cant understand other peoples thoughts

[horatio]

Here's some of the responses from a previous thread about this. Search / Int AND 6.

Can you even speak properly with a 6 int?

Your on par with most root vegetables, so not really.

Isn't there a min/maxer's guild where this question could be posted?

My bear animal companion has int 3.

So... look at the bright side, you are as smart as two whole bears put together!

The issue: she has an intelligence of 6.

you need to RP this just over the level of drooling.... the abitily to form sentances would just be the start of your problems..

...then would be the complete incapablity to understand anything that was going on around you, possible problems recognising anything twice, and an attention span that would make a goldfish look like a genius in comparison...
let alone the basic instincts or friend or foe and what to actually throw the magic at...

Micah managed to say..

A character with an ability score of 6 is pretty indicative of an attempt to min-max elsewhere.

ok.. while i agree it important to get your build(stats) right.. its more important to make your PC playable. As a DM, if i see peeps with stats under 9 or 10 that they arent RPing in good faith.. it makes me sad I dont mean to be harsh and im certainly not telling you how to play.... but how much fun and world interaction can you have with an INT of 6?

*shrugs*

I'm with Pleth here...you're going to have to play that int if you go with it, and expect to miss out on things, get killed more easily, etc because of the decision you made. (not that I think you're trying to sweep that low stat under the rug...kudos to you for asking for tips)

I've been playing a halfling barbarian (Shelby, almost nobody's met him, he doesn't get out much...just made lvl 4 over about 2 years) with an int of 8, a wis of 8, and a cha of 8. He's so stupid he's obnoxious...although some people (thankfully for his hp) find it somehow endearing. He's afraid of bathing and stinks (unless someone terrorizes him and convinces him the only way to escape some sort of evil spell is to take a bath....it's been done).

He'll follow anyone anywhere who promises something nice (went to a temple the other day with somebody who was going to show him how to make healing potions...I'm just lucky it was Gorethar's and not Maleki's), and any conversation that includes long words, even slightly complicated concepts, etc, with him usually takes an hour longer than it should.

In fact, I was worried he was too coherent for his intelligence, so I bumped it up to 9 with his level 4 point. I got sick of typing like a gorilla (and quickly decided that wasn't quite the area I wanted him to be impared in), but wanted to keep him childishly slow. His actual int would probably be lower in some areas and higher than others if there was a spread, but you get the point.

Did I mention he also has a fear of all monsters whose names start with 'b' after a bad run in with dire badgers? Luckily for him he can't spell.

Int six is below that.

If you don't want to put that much work into figuring out how your character interacts with this highly complex world full of manipulative people, illusions, bizarre situations, magic, etc... my advice is that you play somebody with more average low stats.

A sorc with an int of 6 innately knows how to cast spells (spell casting stat is Cha not Int), but probably has a VERY hard time guaging the best spells to use in a given situation, ranges, area of effect, etc. Maybe they can't cast the right spell at the right time. They probably can't tell when their attacks are being more/less effective (i.e. piercing vs. skeletons...Shelby hasn't figured that out either) She/he/it can probably learn friend vs. foe... Ogres (Int 6, Wiz 10, Cha 7) are able to work together, after all...but their strategy for dealing with things is:

"Lazy and bad-tempered, ogres solve problems by smashing them; what they can't smash, they either ignore or flee" - 3.5 Monster Manual

If you had an half-ogre fighter with an int of 6 that smashed things or didn't smash things based on a very limited set of rules...it might work...knowing to cast a fireball, where to cast a fireball, when to cast that fireball? That's tougher. Remember, the average human being's intelligence is 10. your character is almost only half as intelligent as the average person in a middle-ages era society.

So...yeah....the only punishments in engine for your low int are low skill points, bad rolls on int based skills, and the occasional dumb conversation with an NPC, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Know what you're getting yourself into.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Hope that helped some.

[Isengrim]

I believe that mental abilities of character should be always at least to some extent regarded as combination of INT and WIS stats, sometimes also CHA.

With 6 INT, 10 WIS and say, 18 CHA, you would be able to roleplay a supermodel I guess. 6 INT and 18 WIS on the other hand would be, IMHO, totally unrealisitc - even the "village sages" should be able to pass their wisdom to other people and for that they need certain level of Intelligence.

Someone with very low INT does not need to be a retard, a pathologic idiot, but close to it - a person unable to learn, ruled solely by emotion and passions, not reason.

As to your example with children - I have to disagree. Children are differently gifted, some of them learn fast, others can't memorize a simple rhyme. So some children can start with INT 14, while others with 8.

[Alex III]

You see, I'm having trouble relating the numeric value of 6 int to a real life example. The only reference I can directly use was this -

An INT of 6 would then correspond to IQ of 60, which is likely to be associated with poor learning abilities, limited social skills, reduced linguist capacity.

Reduced linguist capacity - ok, my char won't be able to read Shakespeare, that's granted. But should he mess up grammar? Or should he just have trouble with the complex words? Or should he have a limited vocabulary, and how limited?
Poor learning abilities - ok, I'd need to have the same thing repeated to me four times over before I get it, and I won't learn easily from my mistakes.
Limited social skills... Now that's tough, because I honestly don't know what it means. Is it that I don't know how to speak about the weather? How to behave before a queen? Or am I just unable to get a girlfriend and keep her for more than a week? All are examples of poor social skills, but some would apply, and some would not.
Having trouble recognizing something after I've seen it and poor attention span - I disagree, those are ruled by wisdom.
A child "starting" with 14 int? Come *on* now, at what age? A month? Or 16 years old? My guess is - neither, but as the developing of reasoning and learning abilities in a human being is gradual, between those two ages there IS some point that corresponds to 6 int (that's called the intermediate value theorem). Can you tell me what that point is? In average?
I am getting a lot of examples, but they either don't sound right to me, or don't fit in a single image for a generic 6 int person.
Yes, a character CAN be superstitious and refuse to bathe. But a high mage can do that too. Yes, being gullible and trusting IS a possibility, but then again a high mage COULD be overtrusting too, and my father could have beaten it into me that you-never-again-walk-into-a-home-without-asking-the-host-first-understand-me! Trust falls in the shadowy territory between int and wis, you can't arbitrarily attribute it to one or the other, it depends on the context.
I'm not interested in the pathological expressions of a low int score. I can make those up myself. I am interested in the everyday, mundane reflection of it. Having 14 int is not *that* rare, you've met lots of such people. Then you should have met an equal number with 6 int. Can you describe them to me?
I think that unless you live in a mental institution, the descriptions won't have much in common with what I've read so far here...

[Katroine]

Int of 6, you are going to be very limited with your abilities, no matter how much you don't want to be.

[Nob]

An intelligence score of 6 is about the same as the average intelligence score of a troll.(Consequently, I suppose I'm the only one who sees any sort of irony in that...)

This goes way beyond anything acceptable of any "civilized" creature.

Remember that ability scores generally represent the "natural" state of a creature's basic abilities, so someone will generally not have much difference in intelligence whatever their age category, while certain stats like strength, dexterity, constitution actually go down based on category while others like charisma and wisdom tend to go up.

6 intelligence would essentially mean a severe lack of cognitive ability, an inability to speak, learn or remember anything at a meaningful level. Just look at the example of a troll.

They really don't do much but follow their natural instinct (ie hunger) and roam about trying to make good on that instinct.

Constant attempts to try to justify extremely low stat scores really come off as bad faith attempts to excuse min-maxing, it's like people trying to play normally socially competent or personally strong characters with 6 charisma...(really now...)

[Alex III]

Ogres are mentioned in the same example row for values of 6-7 int in the PHB table, page 9, as trolls. Ogres CAN speak and DO have a social organization (page 198 MM).

All PCs CAN speak - page 12 PHB. All PCs except barbarians are literate, regardless of int (same page), which has a min value for PCs of 3 in D&D. Consequently, int 3 is enough to be literate. If there's a rule that specifies something else for Avlis, I have yet to see it.

Moreover, what if I make a half-orc with 4 int? What would be the difference between this half-orc and my 6 int char? And there *should* be a difference, shouldn't there? However the above examples don't leave much room for regress.

Ability to read and write implies the intellectual capacity of a first grade student (if not for the borderline case of 3 int, surely for the 6 int one) - along with simple arithmetics and such. The age of a first grade student is 7 years in most countries - which is what I quoted in my starting post, and which I take as a base for roleplaying my 6 int char.

I can understand the cheesing concern, and I can understand the metagame reasoning why there shouldn't be many characters with min-maxed ability scores. I can even reroll my char if you say that I can't play with that low int because I'm cheesing. However, trying to justify in-game the metagame reasoning by forcing me to play an idiot - which, by the way, I believe I am perfectly capable of - is just not right. Ogres *don't* drool. Ogres can sometimes hire adventurers to do their job for them (again page 198 MM). How's that for drooling and biting on burning objects?

[mighty_alcibie]

hmmm, hmmm, ummmm, ummmm, ummmmm...
*scratches head*
*keeps thinking*
ummm, ummm,hmmm, hmmmm
?????????

[Tigg]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about low IQ's:

IQ tests were created as an attempt to measure a person's abilities in several areas, including language, numeracy, and problem-solving. The average score is 100. People with a score below 75 will often - but not always - have difficulties with daily living skills. Since factors other than mental ability (depression, anxiety, lack of adequate effort, etc.) can yield low IQ scores, it is important for the evaluator to rule them out prior to concluding that measured IQ is "significantly below average".
The following ranges, based on the Wechseler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS), are in standard use today:
Class/ IQ
Profound mental retardation below 20
Severe mental retardation 20-34
Moderate mental retardation 35-49
Mild mental retardation 50-69
Borderline mental retardation 70-79

hope that helps your RP

[Rhissaerk Jalesh]

I'm going to have to say I agree with Alex III here. Animals are capable of learning and remembering, and they're Int 3. My cat knows better then to bite a flaming log... and ain't no one gonna convince me a cat is smarter then a person with 6 Int.

Quite a few humanoid races that have cultures and languages entirely their own have an average intelligence of 6-7. It does not mean you are a total moron incapable of thinking, it simply means you're worse at it and are more instinctual. You might learn slower, but you can learn. You might not speak as clearly, but you can speak. And if nothing else, you're definately as smart as a very smart dog, and that's if you're at the low end of your ability scores spectrum.

[Dralix]

I'm going to have to say I agree with Alex III here. Animals are capable of learning and remembering, and they're Int 3. My cat knows better then to bite a flaming log... and ain't no one gonna convince me a cat is smarter then a person with 6 Int.

I hate to tell you this, but your cat is NOT capable of rational thought. Your cat is capable of acting on instinct and conditioned response.

[Eef]

Ogres *don't* drool. Ogres can sometimes hire adventurers to do their job for them (again page 198 MM). How's that for drooling and biting on burning objects?

Those are not the average ogres. Those are the -smart- ogres. Average ogres are of the "Break your bones!" persuasion.

[Dralix]

Average ogres are of the "Break your bones!" persuasion.

Gortog smash?

[Rhissaerk Jalesh]

I'm well aware of that Dralix. But my cat doesn't bite flaming things either. So I think we can assume a person who's smarter then my cat (which is, like, anything. *chuckles*) wouldn't do so regularly either.

[Eef]

Average ogres are of the "Break your bones!" persuasion.

Gortog smash?

Smash joo to goo!

[Dralix]

I suggest that your cat simply hasn't been given ample opportunities to bite flaming things. I would be very interested in testing this theory. However, I'm more interested in testing it with the neighbourhood dogs than with your cat.

I should invite them to my next party and introduce them to the fire pit.

[Marleh]

Remember that not all NPC's are created equal. Not every NPC ogre or troll has a INT of 6, remember, thats the base stat for the average NPC troll.

Look, justify an extremely low stat it all you want, but the game mechanics call for the numbers to be assigned someplace, and the question would be, where are you going to put the additional points, what would be your justification for it - and most important, why do it? What kind of character concept would be so original and important that you would go to such lengths to explain yourself?

[Calzier]

From a random website:

Descriptive Classifications of Intelligence Quotients

Code: Select all

 
IQ          Description        % of Population
 
130+       Very superior           2.2%
 
120-129    Superior                6.7%
 
110-119    High average           16.1%
 
90-109     Average                 50%
 
80-89      Low average            16.1%
 
70-79      Borderline             6.7%
 
Below 70   Extremely low           2.2%
 

140 Top Civil Servants; Professors and Research Scientists.

130 Physicians and Surgeons; Lawyers; Engineers (Civil and Mechanical)

120 School Teachers; Pharmacists; Accountants; Nurses; Stenographers; Managers.

110 Foremen; Clerks; Telephone Operators; Salesmen; Policemen; Electricians.

100+ Machine Operators; Shopkeepers; Butchers; Welders; Sheet Metal Workers.

100- Warehousemen; Carpenters; Cooks and Bakers; Small Farmers; Truck and Van Drivers.

90 Laborers; Gardeners; Upholsterers; Farmhands; Miners; Factory Packers and Sorters.

From wikipedia:

People with a score below 75 will often - but not always - have difficulties with daily living skills

daily living skills, such as getting dressed, going to the bathroom, and feeding one's self

[Urizen]

Thank god I gave up that career in gardening and went with research scientist. Actually, I can feel my IQ lowering as I read this thread. Maybe I should go to law school, yeah.

[szabot]

I'm going to have to say I agree with Alex III here. Animals are capable of learning and remembering, and they're Int 3. My cat knows better then to bite a flaming log... and ain't no one gonna convince me a cat is smarter then a person with 6 Int.

I hate to tell you this, but your cat is NOT capable of rational thought. Your cat is capable of acting on instinct and conditioned response.

*resists urge not to enter a debate about this*
*rolls a 20*
*resist attempt successful*
*is a nerd*

[Dralix]

*resists urge not to enter a debate about this*
*rolls a 20*
*resist attempt successful*
*is a nerd*

Doesn't resisting an urge to not do something imply that you do it?