The epic ststem?

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:06 pm

Grunt wrote:p.s. As much as Micah may claim things such as "F'ng Crafters" and "F'ng Psions"... we all know the Ebony Tower has a basement where young psions are put to work in sweatshop like conditions crafting Ebony Order robes using <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed>.

We're on to you.

Glofindel · Post by **Glofindel** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:18 pm

Heh...what problem?
I tend to agree with Tigg (how odd....hehe).

When I seperate my wants, biases, bitterness, ego, and random selfishness that goes through my head, and think of what is important to the world of Avlis, two concepts come to mind comes to mind that I think overall benefit Avlis.... "Large Player Base" and "Donations"

*makes note to self pertaining to that*

It is bad enough that one post on the board has made some people I used to enjoy playing with not play with me for fear of no DM love (all in good fun...right...pretentious bast....bah, I digress)....I win prizes you know....
Branding people as "Not Worthy" (which this post offhandedly does already) < snipped > may not be the healthiest approach for the betterment of the world. It sure has adjusted my fun here..... Implementing ideas like this brand people simply by being excluded, and stigmitizes them to the rest of the playerbase....for what ends? Seriously...for what ends?
Think of Ostrisizing a portion of the playerbase as *not worthy* instead of just one person, and the donations and people playing will atrophy into cancerous sickness (but only "Worthy" people would be playing then, right?).
I see MUCH more problem in implementaion of an idea in any way similar to this than the "Real" problem existing at all.
God, I have seen this kill 2 worlds already....still...it continues.
Posted With Love!

Micah · Post by **Micah** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:19 pm

apandapion wrote:I guess it should be clear to me by now that any conversation about epic levels will result in this little word game being played. We all know that you can be cool without being over level 20. Can we talk about the mechanics in one thread now, please?

Not quite. It's no word game. HFox didn't start the thread as a specifically mechanical topic. The points he brings up are interesting alternatives, but invariably highlight the difference between a mechanical epic and a IC epic character. He stresses that the mechanics don't do truly epic characters justice, and emphasized the aspect of epicness that goes beyond the mechanics. A purely mechanical discussion could be started elsewhere, if that's your complaint, but here there is something more going on.

Vett expressed my view in not nearly as many words I think:

VETT SCALES L7 wrote:Being Epic and being Epic Level are two different things.

Any DM can tell you how one is much more powerful than the other.

On Avlis, being epic mechanically only mean as much as a dungeon master wants it to. If your character is properly epic, he/she will be treated so. Level has nothing to do with it, nor a poor mechanical implementation. This is a RP server that works as it can with what bioware gave it. That is why I feel that the system is fine... because the two are not dependant on one another.

I don't think it can be improved upon, and anything we would try to do to correct it (even if we had nigh-unlimited power) would result in somebody else being disatisfied. That's the way things work here as a trend, from gold sinks to item drops to phat xpses to spellchanges to new features to player housing. Half the player base raves, half rants. Then after a month nobody cares anymore and we all play on!

Anyway, back to HFox's last statement: I think that you are right to a degree. Advancement is stressed. But I know where I hang out there is no short of very high level RP, regardless of level, and the guys at the top are very much deserving of their stations.

Cheers!

Grunt wrote:p.s. As much as Micah may claim things such as "F'ng Crafters" and "F'ng Psions"... we all know the Ebony Tower has a basement where young psions are put to work in sweatshop like conditions crafting Ebony Order robes using <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed>.

...Shite... guys I think we need to find a new secret hideout!

Jskee · Post by **Jskee** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:23 pm

Grunt wrote:Screw that.

So people can vault beyond level 20 in under 2 years. Big whoop. Maybe they played 20-30 hours a week, maybe they went adventuring more often than others, maybe they did some crafting...

To people who have 4 characters, the highest of which is level 7, and you've been here 3 years: Good job, I hope you're having fun.

To people who have 1 character, who is level 17, and you've been here 3 months: Good job, I hope you're having fun.

Total XP from level 1 to level 10: 45000
Total XP from level 10 to level 20: 145000
Total XP from level 20 to level 25: 135000

(meaning XP to earn not what your XP total will be)

So it's quite possible that while you're plodding along between level 20 to get to 25, someone who was level 10 when you hit epic could quite easily become epic by the time you reach 25...by putting in close to the same amount of effort. Probably easier too with the new XP system in place.

Bottom line... Is it ruining YOUR gaming experience?

YES: staff@avlis.org
NO: Game on.

Also don't fall into the trap of "some people" requiring penalizing "all people". Just let 'em play until the plug gets pulled.

Besides, the trade fair just got over! ...shouldn't this poll be about crafters driving down the value of items, and people having too much gold and buying gear and not deserving to have it? Check the calendar... Epic level talk is next week, last week was XP, this week is gold/outrageous item costs... and after the Epic level discussion is the "crafting/artificing" conference followed by the "Nerfed/Overpowered" caucus.

-Grunt

+1

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:37 pm

Everyone being epic is lame and has very little to do with Dungeons and Dragons anymore. Even the monty hauliest monty haul campaigns I've seen haven't approached the level of power we see here. Something should've been done earlier to limit this, but the milk's been spilled now. I blame bioware.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:41 pm

Micah Ormane wrote:
Grunt wrote:p.s. As much as Micah may claim things such as "F'ng Crafters" and "F'ng Psions"... we all know the Ebony Tower has a basement where young psions are put to work in sweatshop like conditions crafting Ebony Order robes using <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed> and <spoiler removed>.
...Shite... guys I think we need to find a new secret hideout!

There is a big, already-hollowed-out tree near Le'Or that we could move into. We'd probably want to remove all the green colors already there, though.

apandapion · Post by **apandapion** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:10 pm

Micah Ormane wrote: Not quite. It's no word game. HFox didn't start the thread as a specifically mechanical topic. The points he brings up are interesting alternatives, but invariably highlight the difference between a mechanical epic and a IC epic character. He stresses that the mechanics don't do truly epic characters justice, and emphasized the aspect of epicness that goes beyond the mechanics. A purely mechanical discussion could be started elsewhere, if that's your complaint, but here there is something more going on.

I just think that everyone agrees with you. Everyone. The proposition that there are people who are mechanical epics and not IC epics... who doesn't agree with that? I don't think anyone is going to stick thier head up and say that anyone who manages to roll thier xp counter over 210k should be treated as a hero.

Yet the IC epic vs mechanical epic issue seems to derail nearly every single thread with the word "epic" in the title... much ado about the proverbial nothing. I suppose it's a good place to earn "I'm not a powergamer, look, see, I totally disdain crunchy epic power" street cred.

Isengrim · Post by **Isengrim** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:42 pm

*runs to start RolePlaying finally, as he reached level 20*

I see a problem, but ideas like "let's cap all chars at lvl 20" or the vault purge make me sick. Of course, there is a difference between mechanic and in-game epicness. That's why I think we should cease really consider the NWN epic characters as epic. They are just higher level characters. Most of Epics of Avlis are listed here: http://www.avlis.org/viewforum.php?f=247.

If someone wants to be lvl 40 and know that upon logging in other people will react like "Bob has level 40? Who the f**k is Bob?" - let him be. If he spoils the fun to the other with his pseudo-epicness, report to the Team.

TripleAught · Post by **TripleAught** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:11 am

Grunt wrote: Besides, the trade fair just got over! ...shouldn't this poll be about crafters driving down the value of items, and people having too much gold and buying gear and not deserving to have it? Check the calendar... Epic level talk is next week, last week was XP, this week is gold/outrageous item costs... and after the Epic level discussion is the "crafting/artificing" conference followed by the "Nerfed/Overpowered" caucus.

*hijacks the thread and mashes them together*

And what about those crafters with 21 levels in Alchemy? It needs to be capped!!!

apandapion · Post by **apandapion** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:17 am

Tangleroot wrote:Even the monty hauliest monty haul campaigns I've seen haven't approached the level of power we see here.

Then again, a lot of pnp campaigns play 6 hours a month and a number of Avlis players play 6 hours a day. And there's the fact that a round in pnp takes at least 6 minutes to resolve and online it takes 6 seconds. Sure, what Bioware built doesn't handle a world that runs for years with combat that runs at least 20 times as fast as PnP, but in all fairness, that's not what Bioware set out to build.

If my PnP campaign met once every few days and could handle battles in 5 minutes, they'd be at least 20th level by now. At the very least.

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:27 am

It's Monty Hall. Let's Make a Deal gameshow host from the seventies.

Micah · Post by **Micah** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:27 am

apandapion wrote:I just think that everyone agrees with you. Everyone. The proposition that there are people who are mechanical epics and not IC epics... who doesn't agree with that? I don't think anyone is going to stick thier head up and say that anyone who manages to roll thier xp counter over 210k should be treated as a hero.

Yet the IC epic vs mechanical epic issue seems to derail nearly every single thread with the word "epic" in the title... much ado about the proverbial nothing. I suppose it's a good place to earn "I'm not a powergamer, look, see, I totally disdain crunchy epic power" street cred.

This is very true. And perhaps that's half the problem then. It's a matter of everybody thinking themselves 'in the right' because no guidelines were ever firmly established other than bioware's "You get more power after 20!". I suppose in that regard the epic system is flawed.

Arond · Post by **Arond** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:35 am

Personally, I like the Epic system and enjoy the additional things you can do mechanically with your character when you get there. I play a triple-classed character, so without epic levels it would be a bit tougher to make the 'jack-of-all-trades' type of character I'm currently playing. Not to say that it couldn't be done and wouldn't be fun without the epic system, but I enjoy it as is.

My .02 GP.

chamalscuro · Post by **chamalscuro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:53 am

apandapion wrote:
Tangleroot wrote:Even the monty hauliest monty haul campaigns I've seen haven't approached the level of power we see here.
Then again, a lot of pnp campaigns play 6 hours a month and a number of Avlis players play 6 hours a day. And there's the fact that a round in pnp takes at least 6 minutes to resolve and online it takes 6 seconds. Sure, what Bioware built doesn't handle a world that runs for years with combat that runs at least 20 times as fast as PnP, but in all fairness, that's not what Bioware set out to build.

If my PnP campaign met once every few days and could handle battles in 5 minutes, they'd be at least 20th level by now. At the very least.

+1

NWN emulates P&P playing, but they're not directly comparable.

Leave the epic system alone. I've never even had a character above 15 here, and I still think that.

Bearyman · Post by **Bearyman** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:53 am

Themicles wrote:I don't mind the idea myself, but inevitably, someone will cry favourtism, even if it doesn't exist. In fact, people already do.

+1.... of course all that unlocking also = more work for team.

Glofindel · Post by **Glofindel** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:02 am

Most of Epics of Avlis are listed here: http://www.avlis.org/viewforum.php?f=247.

Sans one person, I agree to be epic as it is meant in a non-mechanichal way, you either are on this list...or are infamously on a similar "Villans" list.
See, there is already a perfect functioning system that answers the non-mechanical issue.

Xeo · Post by **Xeo** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:12 am

The bonus side of a game engine wise IMO is that your PC playing life is extended. Eg still can choose feats to IC happenings, development, taking on a whole new different class for Character Direction.

Being Epic in a game engine wise prolongs your ability to play your PC that you perhaps have grown found of playing. PC's that have been around for years can still be played and not un-playable.

I think we IMO and probably wrong here view epic lvls or progress means your out of the game. I never seen it liked this and epic lvls have given more PC's a longer shelf life and the ability OOCly to still advance and have fun, which is a part of the game we play IMO. So people can still enjoy the RP off the players and the player playing the PC which entails a mixture of own tastes and fun they look for*Disclaimer* Its not the forefront on the list of having fun. Just part of it IMO.

Avlis IMO has shown that it can last for a very long time. So giving the tools for it to last longer is a good thing IMO.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:22 am

Since people seem to quote me selectively:

Everyone being epic is lame and has very little to do with Dungeons and Dragons anymore

Yes, Hackmaster and epic level Rulemaster with all the 8 compendium books can be fun too, but I'd have preferred a more traditional d&d experience.

Concrete examples:

Choosing classes has less impact, everyone can be a mage, thief, and a fighter at the same time with the epix.

Monster inflation. Balors, the ultimate evil guys in pnp are a joke that are killed like kobolds.

Reduction of value of mid levels. 10+ levels, which are most of the time the best time in D&D are sort of an extended noob period with the epix.

I could go on, but guess it's a matter of taste. And I don't think I can be convinced that overall epicness is a good thing.

Arieanne · Post by **Arieanne** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:23 am

Pretty much agree with Micah and Isengrim.

As long as epic char (when it comes to lvl) doesn't "abuse" his epic skills, making the other players grumpy and making them losing fun of playing Avlis (I met such char literally ONCE), I am totally fine with his levels, even if gained them in ridiculously short period of time.

Some players don't like ganing xp. Some care for it more than the others. Some would like to gain xp and don't know how to do it effectively. Some are dirty PGers (and they DO dissapear from Avlis quickly), some are cute PGers, make other people laugh and become RPotM ( *waves at Pinky*

). Would you like Rhiss less/more if he had 8 lvls less/more? Or rather change the question: who cares??

Never met Janur IG, but char I will forever remember is Lucien. I doubt he passed by lvl 12. And always RPs with him were something special. He ROLEPLAYED powerful and strong personality, even if he was level 12. If player makes you forgetting about his char's level, it proves his value as an excellent RPer. Which is the first step to real epicness, despite number of levels.

Honestly, I can't understand this fear, that some complete n00b will appear on Avlis and powergame to level 35 in 6 months. So what? His levels don't grant him epicness glory in the eyes of players, who are here for years. He just has levels, he doesn't have fame. And each real epic HAS his legend.

And capping... it reminds me communist regime. Yeah, let's make everybody equal, then everybody will be happy. Hey, why not make it 0-15...? We are even more equal! Come on HFox... if you think, your char is anyhow "worse", because he has less levels than some fake epics... then we must work on your self-esteem, really.

*hangs big poster above his bed : I am the hero of Avlis and everybody loves me!*

JJJ · Post by **JJJ** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:05 am

Disagree. I think the system is fine. It worries me that some players spend so much time looking at what others do. There are occassions when I log in and see that someone has shot past my PC in 2 months, but hey, I've enjoyed those 2 months, I'm happy with my PC, so why should I care what they do?

Micah said:

So I say leave the system and let people play how they want.

and Grunt said:

...it's quite possible that while you're plodding along between level 20 to get to 25, someone who was level 10 when you hit epic could quite easily become epic by the time you reach 25...by putting in close to the same amount of effort. Probably easier too with the new XP system in place.

Bottom line... Is it ruining YOUR gaming experience?

YES: staff@avlis.org
NO: Game on.

It seems there are lots of little groups of players out there who RP together and hunt together, rarely meeting many of the famous players who've been on Avlis for years. You don't know what they're up to, what they've been doing while you were elsewhere. Just cos you haven't seen someone RPing their asses off doesn't mean they're a dirty PGer who should be capped. Live and let live.

How epic is epic anyhow? I see lots of players in the 20-29 bracket, but not many who are 30+. When I log into a server and see those I think 'There's an epic'. The 20-29 group are just PCs who have 'finished their training' IMO.

Tigg · Post by **Tigg** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

30... it's the new 20 heheh

Tristan_Durst · Post by **Tristan_Durst** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:14 am

Themicles wrote:I don't mind the idea myself, but inevitably, someone will cry favourtism, even if it doesn't exist. In fact, people already do.

Word!!! +1

When I was running the Arborea server, I ran into a situation where someone was Yelling favortism, even when there was none. Even after we split, our stance was "harder on the team, than on players," and some players still cryed fowl when a DM or admin logged on with a "testing" PC that was sanctioned by the team for the purpose of testing spawns.

As for a Level cap. I DMed on a server once that was SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW advancement, highest level PC is 13th and that is after three years of the server being up. They capped XP off at 5th, and players were required to earn a citizen token for any further advancement. After 15th level all combat XP stops, and only DM dropped XP is available. This is level capping to the extream, and IMO very wise, if the team wants to control Power level on a server.

I personally think capping is a good Idea, but the favortism issue is there.

Nightface · Post by **Nightface** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:21 am

In PnP, it's easy for DMs to control XP gain and character level advancement. In Avlis, dream the fek on.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure every member of the Team has a life outside the game, and would really like to keep living that life, rather than sit at their computer 24/7 and regulate the XP gain of the hundreds of players we have, just so we can all bask in the Care Bear Land of "fair" level progression for all characters. Yes, they could code all sorts of spiffy scripts to make sure we all advance at the same pace, but I'd rather they devote their limited toolset time to more important things than making sure Bob the PGer doesn't get levels faster than Phil the RPer.

Some people are going to level faster than others. Some people may crack the level 21 barrier sooner than others deem "appropriate".

Deal with it.

pstanton · Post by **pstanton** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:47 am

About the part about people not feeling like part of Avls before 20, it may be becuase there isn't a constand flow of new players. While this means we won't overload and kill Avlis anytime soon...

But it means that epics vastly outnumber the lowbies, which can be somewhat frusterating. Its hard to find a group that will accept you, because dragging lowbie luggage along severely limits what a group can do.

I would modify the XP system to let new characters gain lvls and XP quickly, so they can participate meaningfully in combat and fighting RP. And once they reach about lvl 15, the XP gaining would crash.

Post by **Alexandru Stanicu** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:03 am

For the record:
I have never liked the Epic system. Not the PnP version, not the NWN version.

The World of Avlis

The epic ststem?

I think this idea