Sneak Attack

[Spell Singer]

I have to admit I am somewhat confused by this ability. In my copy of the NWN rules it states the attack only does extra damage when the opponent can not see the attacker, is flat footed, or has its back to the character sneak attacking and is in combat against others.

But in game I have seen sneak attacks where none of these conditions were valid. Is this because the game engine is broken, the rules were changed, or something else...?

[timo]

I'm not sure, but I think that several things cause an opponent to go flatfooted for a second, like casting spells, drinking potions, using items, and taunting (hehe).

[Sullaer]

Sneak attack is hard to get a handle on. My move silently skill is high enough that I can get very close to things like umber hulks, etc. With a long bow, ice arrow, rapid shot, and sneak attack of 2d6, I did good damage on the first arrow, then went critical on the 2nd and it was dead.

But then, after hitting for a sneak attack on the bow with another opponent, which didn't die so fast, I switched to my long sword and got another sneak attack on that attack. Surprised me, because once engaged after the initial strike, I wouldn't expect to get a sneak attack. I'm not compaining, though.

[Aloro]

Flanking in NWN is broken insofar as the game engine does not discriminate between opponents in front of or behind a target. This in turn causes Sneak Attack to be somewhat overpowered in NWN.

That is to say, in 3E D&D you can only flank an opponent when using melee weapons, and you must be directly opposite another person who is attacking the same target. In NWN, if anyone is attacking a target, and a second person attacks that target from any direction, the target is considered flanked. Furthermore, you can flank using missile weapons in NWN.

This makes rogues FAR more powerful in NWN combat than they are in PvP; a clever rogue will work with a comrade in heavy armor (cleric, warrior, etc). The "tank" runs to the front line and engages the enemy, while the rogue stands back and fills the enemy with arrows, getting sneak attack damage on every shot.

- Aloro / Cha'reth

[Reinstag]

One thing I have noticed, monsters attack the person who did the most damage to them if they can be reached.

What this means is when my rogue runs up to attacka creature being attacked by someone else he has one good sneak attack and then he is the primary target of the bad guy for the rest of the combat. As anyone who plays rogues knows, they usually can't stand up to this sort of attention, so it can balance it out a bit.

Just my observations, your mileage may vary...

[Strangg]

Wells neak attack is a mother because being flatfooted happens all the time if you are fighitng more than one opponent. It basically works like this: If you are betaing one opponent, yuo are considered "flat footed" to anyoen else who walks up and beats on you, until you turn to fight them. Of course if you turn to fight them you are considered flat footed against the guy you were beating on.

Now, how my fighter deals with this is i always bea the snot out of anyone who is getting sneak attacks on me, looks liek a rogue, acts like a rogue, looks like he is acting liek a rogue, thinking about looking like acitng liek a rogue...i hate rogues. Oh and knockdown is a wonderful thing i can keep 2 opponents on the ground and beat on a third if it is timed properly and i don't miss.


~S

[SoulBlazer]

Sneak attack IS broken under the Aurora engine (NWN).. not quiet so badly as some other skills/feats *cough* deflect arrows.. but enough to make a fighter/rogue with the proper feats (two wep. ambidex. improved two wep. exotic wep.) a force to be recokoned with. Using those 'fun in the sun' double bladed swords or axes turns the rogue into a meat grinder if he gets the drop on you.

This *fun* is even multiplied when you get the advanced rogue feats such as crippling strike which does 2 points of CUMULATIVE strength damage per sneak attack.

Lets put this into perspective:

A level 10-12 rogue with the following feats :

a) two weapon fighting
b) improved two weapon fighting
c) Ambidexterity
d) Crippling Strike
e) Exotic Weapon Prof.

Using a mundane (read not magic) double bladed sword, with stats similar to (not including quad level points (QLP) upgrades) :

14 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 8 WIS, 14 INT, 12 CHA

Will do the following / blade / attack:

1d8 + 2 (Base STR MOD) + 1 (1.5 x STR MOD for 2H Weapon) + 5d6 (Sneak at level 9) piercing/slashing damage + 2 Points of Strength Damage (Crippling Strike)

At level 10.. a rogue has 2 attacks / round.. raising the total melee attempts to 4x / combat round.

Min damage / Hit = 9 Slash/Pierce + 2 points STR drain*
Max damage / Hit = 41 Slash/Pierce + 2 points STR drain*

Given the complete attack round granted a hit on each strike :

Min damage / Full Attack Round = 36 physical + 8 STR Drain *
Max damage / Full Attack Round = 144 physical + 8 STR Drain*

* = numbers do not include critical hit damage (sneaks dont count towards it)

Now I dont know about you .. but if I can even come close to 144 damage with ability drain PER ROUND Id be rather impressed..

If you want to see how wrong and twisted this gets.. simply start talking about mr.rogue when he reaches level 15 and gets 3 attacks base (6 with double weapon).

(note .. provided that you survive the first or possibly second round with the rogue .. having all that STR damage does make you a sitting duck if you wear heavy armor and the rogue pulls back and whips out his bow.. hehe)

Cheers

[Suddenly the dungeon collapses around you - You Die]

[Vanor]

1d8 + 2 (Base STR MOD) + 1 (1.5 x STR MOD for 2H Weapon) + 5d6 (Sneak at level 9) piercing/slashing damage + 2 Points of Strength Damage (Crippling Strike)

Umm you don't get the 1.5x mod for a double weapon I don't think. You get 1x on the main hand, and .5 on the off hand.

At level 10.. a rogue has 2 attacks / round.. raising the total melee attempts to 4x / combat round.

True, but then again a Rogue's BAB isn't that high, and they're getting negitves for two handed fighting. Rogues don't hit nearly as offten as a fighter does, and when facing a fighter in heavy armor, with a high AC, they're not real likely to hit all that offten.

[SoulBlazer]

Umm you don't get the 1.5x mod for a double weapon I don't think. You get 1x on the main hand, and .5 on the off hand.

True enough.. I just had a look at it in game and it didnt count for the 1.5 mod.. Oh well thats only 1 point of damage anyhow.

True, but then again a Rogue's BAB isn't that high, and they're getting negitves for two handed fighting. Rogues don't hit nearly as offten as a fighter does, and when facing a fighter in heavy armor, with a high AC, they're not real likely to hit all that offten.

That remains to be seen when fighting the majority of creatures out there however (not every monster is a level 12 fighter decked out in full plate and tower shield). Additionally unless you are playing a monty hall type campaign where gear thats +3 or better is abundant, I would still be very weary of a rogue using double weapons. As for the low BAB on the rogue.. if its really an issue, mixing a few levels of fighter in there should be more then enough to offset any hitting issues you might be having.

Note: If you are adding some points of fighter later in the game .. weapon specialiation adds +2 damage to the weapon you assign it too. (Food for Thought)

[Rabbit Man]

Sneak attack IS broken under the Aurora engine (NWN).. not quiet so badly as some other skills/feats *cough* deflect arrows.. but enough to make a fighter/rogue with the proper feats (two wep. ambidex. improved two wep. exotic wep.) a force to be recokoned with. Using those 'fun in the sun' double bladed swords or axes turns the rogue into a meat grinder if he gets the drop on you.

This *fun* is even multiplied when you get the advanced rogue feats such as crippling strike which does 2 points of CUMULATIVE strength damage per sneak attack.

Lets put this into perspective:

A level 10-12 rogue with the following feats :

a) two weapon fighting
b) improved two weapon fighting
c) Ambidexterity
d) Crippling Strike
e) Exotic Weapon Prof.

A rogue cannot get improved two weapon fighting until level 12 because of the prerequisites. By multi-classing with a melee class, you can get the feat at level 10 with six fighter levels, including one fighter level at 10 to get the feat. This leaves 4 rogue levels, and not much of a sneak attack. The rest of my response will assume level 12 pure rogue to get these feats.

Using a mundane (read not magic) double bladed sword, with stats similar to (not including quad level points (QLP) upgrades) :

14 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 8 WIS, 14 INT, 12 CHA

Will do the following / blade / attack:

1d8 + 2 (Base STR MOD) + 1 (1.5 x STR MOD for 2H Weapon) + 5d6 (Sneak at level 9) piercing/slashing damage + 2 Points of Strength Damage (Crippling Strike)

At level 10.. a rogue has 2 attacks / round.. raising the total melee attempts to 4x / combat round.

Min damage / Hit = 9 Slash/Pierce + 2 points STR drain*
Max damage / Hit = 41 Slash/Pierce + 2 points STR drain*

Given the complete attack round granted a hit on each strike :

Min damage / Full Attack Round = 36 physical + 8 STR Drain *
Max damage / Full Attack Round = 144 physical + 8 STR Drain*

* = numbers do not include critical hit damage (sneaks dont count towards it)

Now I dont know about you .. but if I can even come close to 144 damage with ability drain PER ROUND Id be rather impressed..

If you want to see how wrong and twisted this gets.. simply start talking about mr.rogue when he reaches level 15 and gets 3 attacks base (6 with double weapon).

You can?t hit much with this build. The build you gave, at level 12, using a two-handed weapon, will get +9 from the rouge level, +2 from strength, -2 for two weapon fighting with all the feats. So the ?to hit? for primary hand is +9/+4 and off hand is +9/+4. That means you are a level 12 character, without potions or spell buffs, that can only hit NPCs with AC of 28 or lower unless you roll a 20. And you can only hit AC of 23 or lower with the second attack, unless you roll a twenty. That severely limits what you can fight, and you certainly won?t be fighting any melee characters face-to-face.

My basic point is, you will not be doing huge damage to anyone except low level creatures, which die fast to any level 12 character anyway.

Now for the disadvantages of this build. The best armor you can get is studded leather and your dexterity bonus is only +3 to AC, so your AC is 16 without items other then armor. Since you are assuming low magic, you have very few options to raise this AC. You can?t use a shield because are using two weapon fighting and you have no shield feat anyway. A dexterity boost is limited to +1 above your current bonus because of armor penalties, so cat?s grace helps little. You can be hit by any creature with no attack bonus 25% of its attacks with this AC, which means your progression up the levels as a two-bladed sword wielding character will be a slow one.

If you were to equip this character with the best equipment currently available that come from chests in Avlis, in order to max AC, you would wear boots of elven kind (+2 to dex), bracers of armor +5, cloak of protection +5, and an amulet of natural armor +5. (Dodge bonus items have become unique items on Avlis) Of course, at level 12, those items would come to you only through purchase. All this would raise your AC to only 32. While you would be unable to hit yourself in combat without rolling a 20, many level 12 NPCs could hit you at a higher rate. A level 12 fighter, with only 16 strength and no magic weapons, would have a BAB of +15 (+12 from character level, +3 from strength). That means an automatic hit with his first attack, unless you put on some of those items. Even wearing all of them means he has a 20% chance to hit with his best attack, even without any magic weapons or buffs. But if this fighter was wearing the best equipment he could find on Avlis as well, he could very easily get his AC over 40 and you could only hit him with rolls of 20s, even with a +3 weapon, bull?s strength, bless and a bard song. That leaves you with a 20% to hit him the entire round (four chances of rolling a 20). If he has a magic weapon or a potion, your sneak attack will mean little to a fighter, for he will cut you down fast.

The will save from your build is +3, (+4 secondary save, -1 wisdom modifier) which means you won?t spend much time fighting at level 12, you will spend it running under the effects of fear or paralyzed by low level spells. (you can?t wear items for this in Avlis and wear a natural armor amulet too, so in Avlis your AC would drop way down to boost this save). Your fortitude save is +5 (+4 secondary save, +1 const modifier) which means death spells and poisons will be a problem too. You are basically useless in a fight with elementals or undead, for they are sneak immune. Your hit points are, at maximum, 84 at level 12, unless you burned one of your few remaining feat options on toughness, which would only add 12. This is not good for someone that is attacking with a double-bladed weapon in melee combat and has a very low armor class. You used up most of your feats, so there is not much to help shore up these weaknesses.

Other notes: Once your primary hand attacks, most NPCs will turn and face you after the huge sneak damage, and this happens before the off-hand attacks (if you have flanked them). Therefore, you lose the off-hand sneak. Flatfooted can operate differently.

Also, you never get more than two-off hand attacks per round, even if you get to level 15.

There are ways to build a great rogue that can do big damage with sneaks, but they have weaknesses like every other class. Bioware?s testing has taught them that the strongest class is cleric. It is not a rogue. A rogue is mostly a niche class, with some good to it and some bad. The good is the sneak attack, the reflex saves and the skills. The bad is everything else. But I love to play them.

[Rabbit Man]

As for the low BAB on the rogue.. if its really an issue, mixing a few levels of fighter in there should be more then enough to offset any hitting issues you might be having.

Note: If you are adding some points of fighter later in the game .. weapon specialiation adds +2 damage to the weapon you assign it too. (Food for Thought)

Every two level of fighter you are adding takes away +1d6 a sneak attack. Mixing in one to four melee levels adds +1 to attack on 50% of the possible level mixes. Mixing in 5 to 8 fighter levels only adds +2 to attack on 50% of the levels. That many levels is seriously hurting your sneak attack skill for very little gain in attack. For example, your level 12 rogue in the above build with the feats and weapon choice had a BAB of +9. If that same level 12 was 6 levels rogue, 6 levels fighter, his BAB would be +10. That gain of only +1 to hit cost him +3d6 to his damage. Mixing in a few fighter levels mostly hurts, except to gain cetain feats.

[Vanor]

Nice break down Rabbit Man, and quite accurate I think.

The bottom line is this, a rogue vs a tank type fighter, of equale or with in 1 level of each other, in a toe-to-toe fight, is dead meat.

Even if you did get a sneak attack every round, (which you couldn't in a toe-to-toe fight) you still wouldn't be able to touch the fighter offten enough for it to matter, and the fighter would have little trouble hitting the rogue.

That doesn't mean a rogue is a bad class, or a weak one, just one that's suited for different duities then a fighter is.

Sneak attack is powerfull in NWN, but it's not all that broken really. The major flaw in it, is you can "flank" with a bow, which you can't do in 3e.

[Strangg]

Nice break down Rabbit Man, and quite accurate I think.
Sneak attack is powerfull in NWN, but it's not all that broken really. The major flaw in it, is you can "flank" with a bow, which you can't do in 3e.

No, it is broke, the game engine considers you flat footed way more than it should, which results in more sneak attacks. Why do you think some of the Sereg are so nasty? Just get 2 rogues together on the same target and one will always be in constant sneak attack, no matter which way the person being attacks faces or who he is beating on. The game considers you flat footed against all oppenet with the exception of the opponent you are attacking. And if you want to get seriously nasty get a warrior and 2 roguies to team up and you will see how sick it really gets. The rogues will both be in constant sneak attack while the warrior takes all the beats, and if the warrior can keep the target knocked down, then it is all but over. As far as missile wepon is concerned, you can sneak attack by pnp rules with missile weapons you just have to be within 30ft of the target, which in NWN is almost always unless you are using the camera hak.


~S

[Aloro]

People are confusing the terms "flanked" and "flatfooted".

NWN has broken FLANKING rules that cause targets to be flanked more often than they should be. Flanking gives the attacker a +2 to hit and allows rogues to use sneak attack. If you're being attacked by multiple foes, you're flanked, not flatfooted.

"Flatfooted" is the term for characters that haven't yet acted, *during the first round of initiative*. A character ceases being flatfooted once her first initative occurs in a battle; you are never flatfooted in the middle of a battle. Flatfooted characters don't get their dex bonus, and thus rogues can also sneak attack the flatfooted, during that first initiative round.

- Aloro / Cha'reth

[Strangg]

People are confusing the terms "flanked" and "flatfooted".

NWN has broken FLANKING rules that cause targets to be flanked more often than they should be.

That's what i meant

~S

[Vanor]

Just get 2 rogues together on the same target and one will always be in constant sneak attack, no matter which way the person being attacks faces or who he is beating on.

That's corect according to PnP rules. All rogues who flank an someone, get a sneak attack with every attack they make. Which way the target is facing, or who he is attacking doesn't matter.

The game considers you flat footed against all oppenet with the exception of the opponent you are attacking. And if you want to get seriously nasty get a warrior and 2 roguies to team up and you will see how sick it really gets.[/qutoe]

I know exactly how sick it gets, that's why I enjoy having Timo and Kima with me so much. Delen tanks and those two tear shit up.

As far as missile wepon is concerned, you can sneak attack by pnp rules with missile weapons you just have to be within 30ft of the target, which in NWN is almost always unless you are using the camera hak.

Yep, but you can never flank someone with a ranged weapon. It doesn't matter where the archer is standing, or how many people are near the target, a archer will not get sneak attacks, because they aren't flanking the target.

[storminj]

I am bringing up this old post because it now applies to my character.

Just get 2 rogues together on the same target and one will always be in constant sneak attack, no matter which way the person being attacks faces or who he is beating on.

That's corect according to PnP rules. All rogues who flank an someone, get a sneak attack with every attack they make. Which way the target is facing, or who he is attacking doesn't matter.

The game considers you flat footed against all oppenet with the exception of the opponent you are attacking. And if you want to get seriously nasty get a warrior and 2 roguies to team up and you will see how sick it really gets.[/qutoe]

I know exactly how sick it gets, that's why I enjoy having Timo and Kima with me so much. Delen tanks and those two tear shit up.

As far as missile wepon is concerned, you can sneak attack by pnp rules with missile weapons you just have to be within 30ft of the target, which in NWN is almost always unless you are using the camera hak.

Yep, but you can never flank someone with a ranged weapon. It doesn't matter where the archer is standing, or how many people are near the target, a archer will not get sneak attacks, because they aren't flanking the target.

Is this in PnP you mean? An archer always gets sneak attacks in NWN. It may not be to flanking but it happens.

You put a good fighter and a rogue against somthing with the rogue using a ranged weapon it will go down fast.

I have a rogue that took level of ranger to use the bow and two weapon fighting. What I need to do is fugure out what weapons to use. Before I always used a rapier +2 and have recently been using either a shortsword "hotblade" or handaxe +1. Perhaps I should get a good dagger? I havn't figured out if I like using two weapons yet.

Storm

[Jordicus]

as a halfling rogue like myself, you are stuck with using small weapons such as the dagger or shortsword in order to use two-weapon fighting. For myself, i decided to stick with dual short swords. That way, if i take the weapon focus feat or the improved critical feat it will apply to both weapons. And you can use the weapon finesse feat as well to apply your DEX bonus. For a regular sized character, if you want to do Finesse fighting, you can still use the rapier, but you can't use dual rapiers, so you would have to use a rapier with another small weapon like a short sword or dagger.

The other possible idea would be to dual wield weapons that do differnt types of damage. Slashing & Blunt or Slashing & Piercing or Piercing & Blunt. That way you have a greater advantage against someone that has a damage reduction item.

[Vanor]

Is this in PnP you mean? An archer always gets sneak attacks in NWN. It may not be to flanking but it happens.

Yeah, according to PnP rules, you can't flank with a bow. Or at the very least, you can'd do it without being in melee range. With the point blank shot feat, you may be able to threaten the area in front of you as if you have a melee weapon, but I'm not sure about that.

[Jordicus]

@ Vanor

It says right in the player handbook

Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is
within 30 feet. The rogue can?t strike with deadly accuracy from
beyond that range.

That would imply that it is possible.

[Vanor]

That would imply that it is possible.

It's possable to get a sneak attack with a bow yes. It is however impossable for a ranged weapon to threaten an area, and there for flank someone.

Threatened Area
A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action.

If a character is making a melee attack against an opponent, and an ally directly opposite the character is threatening the opponent, the character and the character's ally flank the opponent. A rogue in this position can also sneak attack the target. The ally must be on the other side of the opponent, so that the opponent is directly between the character and the ally.

So both of those go to show, you can not flank someone with a bow, and there for can not get sneak attacks with a bow like you do in NWN. Where you are effectively flanking anyone who is actively fighting another opinionet.

[Jordicus]

so... hmm..

You can sneak attack someone with a ranged attack but you cannot flank them?

Do you need to flank them in order to get a sneak attack?

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage.

This would seem to indicate that flanking is 1 of 2 possible sources of sneak attacks.

So..... well.. I am still confused..

[Aloro]

You get a Sneak Attack anytime your target does not have their Dex bonus. This can happen for a number of reasons: the target could be flanked (under attack by two or more people); the target could be flatfooted (not yet have acted in the first round of combat); the attacker could be invisible; or the target could be affected by a spell that removes their ability to move or react.

- Aloro

[Jordicus]

ok... that makes sense.. sort of what i was figuring

[Vanor]

This can happen for a number of reasons: the target could be flanked (under attack by two or more people);

That's not tottaly accurate. Flanking does not deny someone their dex bonus, it only alows a rogue who is one of the flanking people to make a sneak attack...

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage.

The way NWN does it, is really quite wrong, based on 3e rules. A rogue archer, will get very few sneak attacks, because he can not flank someone. Someone being flanked, does not alow rogues to get a sneak attack, the rogue has to be the one doing the flanking.

Although personaly, I prefer the NWN rules to 3e rules. It seems logical to me, that someone who is in melee combat with one more people is going to have serrious trouble paying attention to exactly what part of his body the rogue is aming at.