turn undead and knockdown

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:17 pm

I had a very odd occurance. I had a turned greater mummy and I used knockdown on him then when he got up he started casting spells, something which they can not do normally while turned. Anyone else seen something like this? A new bioware bug or what??

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:30 pm

I have seen mummies cast spells before while turned. Only seen a couple of times and only since the last update.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:37 pm

Spell Singer wrote:I had a very odd occurance. I had a turned greater mummy and I used knockdown on him then when he got up he started casting spells

Unless things work a lot differently in NWN they they are supposed to... If you attack a creature you turned, it breaks the turning effect. Other people can attack it, but not the one who turned it. But again, NWN may of gotten this wrong too.

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:01 pm

Vanor wrote:
Spell Singer wrote:I had a very odd occurance. I had a turned greater mummy and I used knockdown on him then when he got up he started casting spells
Unless things work a lot differently in NWN they they are supposed to... If you attack a creature you turned, it breaks the turning effect. Other people can attack it, but not the one who turned it. But again, NWN may of gotten this wrong too.

Big surprise here, they got it wrong.

Pretty much anyone can attack the turned undead with impunity.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:44 pm

Reinstag wrote:Big surprise here, they got it wrong.

Pretty much anyone can attack the turned undead with impunity.

I'd like to say I'm surprised... But I'm not.

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:55 pm

Vanor wrote:
Spell Singer wrote:I had a very odd occurance. I had a turned greater mummy and I used knockdown on him then when he got up he started casting spells
Unless things work a lot differently in NWN they they are supposed to... If you attack a creature you turned, it breaks the turning effect. Other people can attack it, but not the one who turned it. But again, NWN may of gotten this wrong too.

Actually even the person who did the turning is supposed to be able to attack them, they just can't get within 10ft while doing so.

~S

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:25 pm

Strangg wrote:Actually even the person who did the turning is supposed to be able to attack them, they just can't get within 10ft while doing so.

True, but you would have to get with in 10ft to use knockdown. So if NWN worked corectly, using knockdown should break the turn.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:21 am

First I heard anything of attacking the turned creature breaking the turn. It has never in the past in NWN. The creature would run away from you which made combat hard but not impossible (pin it against the corner).

I do not recall there being a restriction from when I was running an AD&D campaign but that was a while ago. And I do not have the rules for 3ed...waiting for 3.5 to come out in july before picking them up.

There is a bug in the AI though if the creature can cast spells while turned. It can not, it is frightened which precludes any actions but running away.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:30 pm

Spell Singer wrote:First I heard anything of attacking the turned creature breaking the turn. It has never in the past in NWN.

I assume it was done this way, because it was too hard to track the PC who did the turning.

But according to 3e rules, if the cleric who turned the undead, comes within 10 feet of it, the turn is broken and the undead can act normaly. Other PC's however are free to get as close as they wish.

As long as the cleric stays 10ft+ away, he's free to attack the undead, with a ranged weapon of some sort, for example.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:19 pm

I suspect it was done that way to make turning at all useful in a solo campaign. Otherwise the turn undead ability would have not so much value (excepting when you have sufficient levels they drop dead on the spot).

I recall turn undead from Baldurs gate and it was absolutely useless, whereas in NWN it is quite useful. So it may be one of those cases where NWN is actually better. Spell selection for Paladins is another area where they are better than the PnP rules in general.

jadeia · Post by **jadeia** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:41 am

Spell Singer wrote:First I heard anything of attacking the turned creature breaking the turn. It has never in the past in NWN. The creature would run away from you which made combat hard but not impossible (pin it against the corner).

I do not recall there being a restriction from when I was running an AD&D campaign but that was a while ago. And I do not have the rules for 3ed...waiting for 3.5 to come out in july before picking them up.

There is a bug in the AI though if the creature can cast spells while turned. It can not, it is frightened which precludes any actions but running away.

Frightened? An undead sloth? I'll check my 3e rule book, but I'd be surprised if it describes turned creatures as frightened.

As I interpret turning, it is the power of your god directed through you and it physically repulses (turns) the undead away from you. It may be pissed at you, but I wouldnt say frightened.

I might be wrong technically, thats just IMHO.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:08 pm

jadeia wrote:As I interpret turning, it is the power of your god directed through you and it physically repulses (turns) the undead away from you. It may be pissed at you, but I wouldnt say frightened.

I don't think they're afraid, not in the sense of the word as we appy it to people. It's more that they are unable to stand the holy presence of a cleric when turning undead. The energy is painfull to them so they run away from it. They will however keep running for a full minute, or as far away as they can get.

Yvarra · Post by **Yvarra** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:17 pm

I've noticed that if you stun a target (i.e. stunning fist) then knock them down , the stun is no longer in effect when they get back up. The stun lasts a LOT longer if you don't knock them down afterwards.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 8:21 am

I think knockdown or more importantly recovery from being knockeddown removes a lot of the other affects. If I do not knock down a mummy they will cast no spells, if I use knockdown they will. This seems to be a bioware bug.

On "Frightened" what my NWN manual says is that turned creatures are considered frightened and flee from the character for 10 rounds. Frightened is also defined so my best guess here is that in NWN being turned is like getting hit with the spell fear.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:36 pm

Spell Singer wrote:On "Frightened" what my NWN manual says is that turned creatures are considered frightened and flee from the character for 10 rounds. Frightened is also defined so my best guess here is that in NWN being turned is like getting hit with the spell fear.

In many cases the NWN manual isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Undead of all forms are immune to fear, and other mind effecting spells/effects.

However Bioware used the fear effect in turning. Because the results of both effects are the same basic thing... A NPC running away.

jadeia · Post by **jadeia** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:46 am

Vanor wrote:
Spell Singer wrote:On "Frightened" what my NWN manual says is that turned creatures are considered frightened and flee from the character for 10 rounds. Frightened is also defined so my best guess here is that in NWN being turned is like getting hit with the spell fear.
In many cases the NWN manual isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Undead of all forms are immune to fear, and other mind effecting spells/effects.

However Bioware used the fear effect in turning. Because the results of both effects are the same basic thing... A NPC running away.

Amen to the NWN manual comment.

I know you are waiting for 3.5 to come out before buying the books Spellsinger, good move.

When you do get them, you will be shocked in some cases just HOW wrong Bioware got so many things.

Not to hi-jack this thread, but the thing I noticed straight away was the difference between the Summonings between 3e and NWN... WAY different.

But you are right, in NWN, undead are technically "afraid" when turned.

However, in 3e, they are not afraid (as all undead are immune to fear) - NWN is just cheating and saving themselves some lines of code.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:12 am

Well I have read some of the rules for 3rdE but that is just when over at a friends place sort of thing.

I am not realy a Bioware hater from what I can see they did a good job translating the game into a computer form.

The trouble to me seems to be in making it work both SP and MP. There are lots of things that are in the game that make no sense in SP mode but are critical in MP and from what I have seen the stuff that makes you pull your hair out in MP general derive from making SP possible.

I can say that they did some good things as well. The selection of spells for Paladins is superior in NWN then the PnP selection. Though I would not mind a spell that creates a temporary Holy weapon +5. Bulls Strength and Eagles Splendor are absolutely critical to my character, whereas spells that allow me to take damage for another character would not be.

Summoned creatures not having a time limit on them is also a fatal mistake for MP.

What I would be curious to see is a breakdown in Avlis of the number of characters in each class.

no need to worry about hijacking the thread, the question was answered to my mind. I just need to practice knockdown far more. But avoid using it on things that are turned.

Falkin · Post by **Falkin** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:28 am

Spell Singer wrote:I recall turn undead from Baldurs gate and it was absolutely useless, whereas in NWN it is quite useful. So it may be one of those cases where NWN is actually better. Spell selection for Paladins is another area where they are better than the PnP rules in general.

I would have to disagree with you there(sorry to diverge from NWN topics folks), I found it highly usefull... Though it didn't work properly in game vs AD&D 2nd rules, it still kept the undead you could affect at "bay", ie they'd retreat to a certian distance, then be out of the area of effect, and close back in a bit until they're affected again, and repeat the cycle... made it pretty easy to plink them off with spells/ranged weapons while the cleric kept the turning activated. then again maybe I had a buggy-copy of the game? who knows...

tlotig · Post by **tlotig** » Sun May 18, 2003 12:00 am

As mentioned above recover from kncok down seem to cure many condition mods, a monk freind reports that stunned creatures start attacking when they stand up, even though they still look stunned

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:49 am

Summoned creatures not having a time limit on them is also a fatal mistake for MP

Summoned creatures do have a time limit - 24hrs..I should be so lucky that I keep one long enough that he tires of my company, but it has been known to happen on occasion.

And yes I know 24hrs is off skew as summoned creature duration is supposedly 1 round per caster level, but we have no choice in the type of creature summoned. All I know is that with a very limited amount of spell slots at my disposal if a summoned creature did follow the 3rd Ed rule this spell would be null and void for a wizard in most cases.

For every case where something has been *overpowered* it is balanced by something that has been underpowered.

Dont forget our familiars have been nerfed terribly; we should be able to have them share spells (they are automatically protected with the protection the caster puts on himself), they should be able to cast touch spells on our behalf.

What Bioware gave us instead was the ability to heal them back to full health by feeding them. (As Merth regens this isnt something I have to do often). From level 7 and certainly by level 10 a familiar is next to useless in NWN, thus you dont see many mages using them in battle once they have reached this point of learning.

Back to your quote about it being a fatal(??) mistake for mp. I really dont understand your point. If I am alone or in a small group (e.g with only one *tank*) the summoned ally is essential. In a larger group there is rarely a need to summon at all.

tlotig · Post by **tlotig** » Sun May 18, 2003 2:21 pm

I would prefer that summons lasted 1round/lvl but werent counted for xp,
also famliars are balced by all their special abilities (panther and pixie rouge lvl spring to mind)
can you use scripting /mod building to edit familiars?

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