Grief

[Orleron]

Grief.
Let’s talk about grief for a moment.

What is grief?

n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: His bad directions caused me grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.

Pretty intense stuff. Deep mental anguish. Bereavement.
My grandfather passing caused me deep mental anguish. I felt grief. I grieved.

That’s completely rational.

Now let’s put this into perspective in the context of Avlis.
Lately, I’ve heard of a lot of accusations of griefing. Now, I am not saying they are all directed at me since I play a pretty decent, level headed kind of gal, but I know they have been made in the past.

Let’s be all hypothetical a moment here.

Let’s say you are walking down the road and you see some guy. You don’t like him because he is wearing hot pink. You call him a sissy, because that’s what your character would do. Pinky turns and kills you without flinching. You slowly bleed to death and think about the horrible task of completing your death quest, running back to your body doing the naked dash of shame, and praying no one loots you. You are stewing inside, because someone had the audacity to kill your character for just doing what your character does. They should be punished. But how?
They griefed me. My character was bullied by a higher level and they death planed me and left. I have been griefed and I want retribution!

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now then, anyone can see this is silly, right? I think so, but I’ve seen it often. Can words alone initiate an attack? Yes. Yes, they can. Should you accept that your words can incite someone to attack? Yes. Yes, you should.



Now then, let’s say you are out and you run into a private Ebony meeting. They ask you to leave so they can finish their business. You, instead pester them asking inane questions about why you should have to leave, what they are doing, and why can’t you stay, ad nauseam. One of the members turns you to stone and they continue on. You are stone, you are pissed, and you really need to itch your nose.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now again, we can see this is silly. It’s all IC and it’s hardly catastrophic. You will be flesh again and all will be right. Should you accept that your actions could cause someone to attack you? Yes. Yes, you should.

(Using Ebony as an example of a dark and spooky group. I know that no one in Ebony would ever turn anyone into stone.)


Now then, you are out collecting flowers in the wildlands. You are a happy go lucky flower picker and nothing gets to you. You run into two PCs. They stop you and start bothering you by talking derogatory and saying horrid things. You ask them to leave you alone. They kill you instantly and send you nasty tells about what they are doing to your body and when you muster enough courage to go back to your body, it’s drylooted and they are still there and kill you again and then raise you before you can log off feeling completely awful about your night.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now, this is a little clearer to me. They would not leave you alone and killed you. Still not griefing. Drylooting you, still legal in the sense of the rules. Sending derogatory and horrid things to you and sending you tells about it then killing you and camping your body and raising you. Well, I am not on the team but I bet that’s a legitimate complaint.



Getting killed for mouthing off does not equal grief. Getting knocked to bleeding for your actions IC does not equal grief. Someone taking all the cotton before you does not equal grief. Someone running ahead of you in a dungeon and killing all the spawns does not equal grief.

What ever happened to taking things IC?

When things don’t go your way for whatever IC thing you did, don’t look for loopholes to get someone in trouble OOCly, find them IC and make some trouble. Seems these days everyone is too quick to pull the grief card to get out of accountability.

I’ve been killed probably a hundred times on Avlis. I’ve been killed by PCs countless times. I’ve never felt the need to file a grief complaint and if I ever do, I will be damned sure it was a clear case of grief, not IC actions leading to an IC response.

The line should not be that fine between what is and what is not grief.

This is not directed at any one person or incident, nor is it more than my own personal opinion. I felt an urge to rant and well, I ranted. It just seems to be the trend lately and it is making it hard to be IC at times, worrying about how someone is going to react and whether or not it will put you in hot water.

You call my character a whore, she will likely knock you on your ass. To think I would get added to some griefer watchlist for doing so troubles me.

/me turns off rant mode

Yeah, this about sums it up pretty well.

When you think about griefing, think about MMORPG's. The point of the griefing rules is to crack down hard on l33t do0dz and to make sure they never get a foothold here. The griefing rules are NOT designed to give people an outlet to vent their frustration to the team at being killed by another player. Killing is legal ICly. Dry looting is legal ICly. The consequences of that are all IC and are not directed by the Team, but by the players. Notice that all of the laws in game are player-made laws and they are not enforced by the Team.


This thread also helps:

viewtopic.php?p=124019#124019

[Sickocrow]

Cause and effect.

IC actions and reactions swing both ways.

[Tigg]

Anyone who is doing the right thing, and not metagameing... DOES NOT KNOW.

Actually I totally agree with you so I must have said it wrong,

All I meant is, if a character's RP is to be bullying or to pick on people, that's fine... even fun! But... let it be consistent... not just happening when the characters they are picking on, are someone they think they can beat based on the CR. For example, acting all tough and aggressive towards one character and very tolerant and peaceful to the other, when basically they look the same with the only difference is that one CR's white and the other purple. It makes you think, hmm... how did you know the perfect one to pick on... gee, I wonder... heheheh

[Aerill]

Best post out of rants that I have seen in a while. No wonder it was moved while I was still reading it.

Good to see team agrees too. Lately I started to think Avlis was becoming too mellow. Glad I was wrong.

[Tony Wazz]

...if you wanna call, 4 epic level characters BOXING and attacking a 10-12 level character a RPing opportunity, and afterwards you ask the victim to "Take some responsibility for your IC actions", then I have nothing else to say here.

But hey, well done, I cannot reach that RPing level myself...

BTW the victim just walked there, so I suppose that dying for this crime is typical is some circles...


Well done!


Edit: And BTW, there are some rules that have to be followed anyway (tells, warnings etc...). NOONE is above those.

I know about this, too. Though I don't yet know who ALL is responsible ( I know OOC who one name is ).

Perhaps food for thought would be:

Remember, OOC anger is not equal to grief. People get angry. Griefing is more specific than that because it makes you angry, does harm to your character, AND most importantly it has no reasonable in-game IC explanation.

I think what Orleron highlighted would be of the most interest.

[Katroine]

With all the comments about being mindful of someone's level, at what level do you stop and treat with kid gloves, and is it level or time on Avlis?

I know a few people who have played for years and have barely broke tenth level. *winks at a certain Brit* I wouldn't treat him any different than I would someone who is 21st level and been on Avlis for two months.

My rant wasn't aimed at anyone or any certain incident. It was a general thought that has been rolling around my brain for months.

[Kareth]

With all the comments about being mindful of someone's level, at what level do you stop and treat with kid gloves, and is it level or time on Avlis?

I think it is more a case of how new they are then how high a level - if they have been around long enough to have built up a reputation then I would consider them fair game.

[cgruquet]

once i had this fresh out of the box PC named Matsu, didnt have a 100 xp to her name. Long story short she ran afowl 3 ebony/ AKN members and got fragged, burnt crispy.

Did i report a greivin?
Hell no I asked for it and got what i deserved.
Plus it got me some revenge aspects and arch enemys.
Thats good stuff not greiveing....

[Xeo]

I have only made a report to the team twice - the first I was advised to because I was killed by a much more powerful PC with absolutly no knowledge of why it happened IC or OOC. Plus there was no role-playing involved in the attack. The character just walked past saw my character cast a few spells - instant death plane.

Is this the case Isamu Vs Kareth at Elf's Gate?

[Hert Snyder]

Edit: meant as a PM.

[Game-Extremist]

IG conflict make things interesting

OOC conflict make you want to


Good post Kat

[Wyrmwing]

*applauds*

[Yau]

Let’s say you are walking down the road and you see some guy. You don’t like him because he is wearing hot pink. You call him a sissy, because that’s what your character would do. Pinky turns and kills you without flinching. You slowly bleed to death and think about the horrible task of completing your death quest, running back to your body doing the naked dash of shame, and praying no one loots you. You are stewing inside, because someone had the audacity to kill your character for just doing what your character does. They should be punished. But how?
They griefed me. My character was bullied by a higher level and they death planed me and left. I have been griefed and I want retribution!

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now then, anyone can see this is silly, right? I think so, but I’ve seen it often. Can words alone initiate an attack? Yes. Yes, they can. Should you accept that your words can incite someone to attack? Yes. Yes, you should.

i have to disagree. DPing should be a last resort. Theres many ways to get out of hostile situations without resorting to CvC. People shouldnt be getting killed for trying to interact with other characters.

Now then, let’s say you are out and you run into a private Ebony meeting. They ask you to leave so they can finish their business. You, instead pester them asking inane questions about why you should have to leave, what they are doing, and why can’t you stay, ad nauseam. One of the members turns you to stone and they continue on. You are stone, you are pissed, and you really need to itch your nose.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now again, we can see this is silly. It’s all IC and it’s hardly catastrophic. You will be flesh again and all will be right. Should you accept that your actions could cause someone to attack you? Yes. Yes, you should.

this however i understand because someone who would do such a thing is most likely accepting that fact he might get involved in some killing.

My character can be insulting at times. Posts like these make me scared to RP my character because i dont want to get killed for doing it.

[szabot]

Let’s say you are walking down the road and you see some guy. You don’t like him because he is wearing hot pink. You call him a sissy, because that’s what your character would do. Pinky turns and kills you without flinching. You slowly bleed to death and think about the horrible task of completing your death quest, running back to your body doing the naked dash of shame, and praying no one loots you. You are stewing inside, because someone had the audacity to kill your character for just doing what your character does. They should be punished. But how?
They griefed me. My character was bullied by a higher level and they death planed me and left. I have been griefed and I want retribution!

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now then, anyone can see this is silly, right? I think so, but I’ve seen it often. Can words alone initiate an attack? Yes. Yes, they can. Should you accept that your words can incite someone to attack? Yes. Yes, you should.

i have to disagree. DPing should be a last resort. and getting killed by someone isnt a good thing, theres many ways to get out of hostile situations without resorting to violence.

First of all, one can kill without DPing. Second, even so, killing or DPing may not be the last resort for certain characters (although, as said above several places, character responses should be tweaked a bit for newbs). Those other ways you mention may not be responses the character cares about trying.

Now then, let’s say you are out and you run into a private Ebony meeting. They ask you to leave so they can finish their business. You, instead pester them asking inane questions about why you should have to leave, what they are doing, and why can’t you stay, ad nauseam. One of the members turns you to stone and they continue on. You are stone, you are pissed, and you really need to itch your nose.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now again, we can see this is silly. It’s all IC and it’s hardly catastrophic. You will be flesh again and all will be right. Should you accept that your actions could cause someone to attack you? Yes. Yes, you should.

this however i understand because someone who would do such a thing is most likely accepting that fact he might get involved in some killing.

My character can be insulting at times. Posts like these make me scared to RP my character because i dont want to get killed for doing it.

The point is, you have to be a bit wiser about which characters your character insults, and, regardless of who s/he insults (or annoys or whatever), you need to be prepared to accept the IC consequences (assuming the other players follows all the relevant rules or guidelines), even if that means being DP'ed.

This subject is close to one that bugs me. Especially with wings and a bone arm (and a skull helm and Ebony robes), a lot of characters enjoy trying to goad my character into some response. I've made Sinomi a bit more patient and less quick-tempered than he used to be, in part because I got tired of dealing with so many of these sorts of situations. The way it often goes is: some character (or their familiar) comes up to Sinomi; looks around, maybe says some things; then *tugs on wing* or *grabs bone arm*; at that point I usually give a warning (even though it would perhaps be more IC to just kill them right there) such as "Touch me again and you die"; they then touch me again and die (actually, usually I'll just paralyze a person if I can); then they turn around screaming "EDF! EDF! I've been assaulted!"

Please. Give me a break. To me knowledge, I've never been watchlisted for anything like that, but even without that, the above kind of case is annoying. Not only you the player but also your character should expect consequences for his actions. You tug on the wings of someone like Sinomi, you shouldn't expect him to just smile nicely at you and say "please, touch me all you want."

Grrr...

Fortunately, I've found the EDF and the Mikona Guards to be reasonable about such situations on most occasions, but I'd still like to see less of that grade-school behavior.

[Yau]

killing without DPing is okay. im just saying a char intentionally DPing must have some ooc motive or get some pleasure from it. thats what i dont like.

theres a limit to how many insults a char can take though. for instance if someone start spiting on my gnoll that would be pushing it. but if they just insult him with word he could just laugh at the little person

what im trying to say is CvC is okay when both parties intend to go into it or expect it as a major possiblity.

since people insulting (alot) are usually trying to provoke the player to CvC. when thats the case well its their own fault.

i just dont agree to people killing someone else because they "can" (higher level)

im rambling a little so just respond if you dont understand what i mean

[Emprod]

First of all, one can kill without DPing.

Is this something new I've missed?

[Fifty]

First of all, one can kill without DPing.

Is this something new I've missed?

A good time to point out that -4hp =! dead.

Being in the bleeding script means you are unconscious and dying, not dead, Yau.

[Katroine]

Yes, when I first started, I did not know that bleeding did not equal dead.
When I moused over myself it said dead, so I thought it was the same until someone explained it to me.

Death travel=Dead.
Bleeding script=Knocked out.

Right?

[terror2001]

Tharliss-- you took the words right out of my mouth (I was writing this when you posted!). I agree that this should be a sticky on the GD forum. To think someone would send a letter to the Team saying essentially -- "Daaddyyy! She HIT me! " is little more than irritating whining. We're supposed to be adults playing a game by the rules, so that everyone can have fun.

The tough part of this is that not everyone who plays the game is an adult and/or behaves like one.

[korak]

First of all, one can kill without DPing.

Is this something new I've missed?

Well, if I was going to kill a PC, I would do it, then send a tell that I am going to heal them instead of making them do a death run. I would just hate to make someone death run in certain places. Of course my thoughts on this are that the person should not try to do something back to my charcter instantly, since the only reason I am getting him out of the bleed script is to make him/her not have to run.

To me, it should be like they are still dead...until I am away from the picture. *shrug*

Saying that, I don't plan on ever actually killing a PC unless provoked.

[Orleron]

A noob is someone who has not been playing Avlis long enough to know the basic history and OOC culture of our organization well enough to understand being DP'ed for mouthing off against an IC jackass.

It does not equal a low level character. Not all lowbies are noobies, but most noobies are lowbies.

[Sickocrow]

0 to -9 HPs is critically wounded and will highly likely die without medical intervention.

[szabot]

Meh, I usually think that in conversations like these people use "killed" to refer to "knocked to bleeding," since they usually seem to distinguish it from DPing. Maybe I was seeing people drawing a distinction where they in fact were not. I'll look a little more closely next time.

[WrathOG777]

I usualy aim for bleeding, then slowly watch them die. If they get up, good for them, if not, goal acomplished.

This is slightly different than ensureing death by attacking the mortally wounded more.

[Fifty]

Yes, when I first started, I did not know that bleeding did not equal dead.
When I moused over myself it said dead, so I thought it was the same until someone explained it to me.

Death travel=Dead.
Bleeding script=Knocked out. & Will probably die without urgent medical attention
Right?