CoPaP, a Misconception

[Vipact]

Before this thread goes off on a tangent, I would like to point out that this is not a thread about the flaws of the individual worlds participating in the agreement. No, CoPaP is not a franchise chain – there is a lot of diversity you can add. A good example of this would be Abyss404, but you also have to understand that to set up a structure to facilitate alliances of worlds, there needs to be hard and fast rules so that it does not take too much time to upkeep – especially with something like this where many people work to keep worlds running for no monetary gain. It is up to the world to ultimately be creative, and I personally feel that creative minds, both from the player and the DMs is what really matters in a PW setup. What point am I trying to make? It is that beyond this limited knowledge, the player base is ill prepared to discuss the intricacies of the dynamic between the worlds and should leave that to those who have the required experience to do so. Of course, I expect constructive suggestions to always be welcome.

From listening to someone who was temporarily unhappy with the confederation, I will venture to say that most problems are 80% social entanglements, from both actual communication and perceived, communication-less estrangement, which even rears its head in this thread. The latter is depressing, but it happens everywhere. After all, CoPaP is a gathering of PEOPLE, which is large enough to have distinct gathering amongst the group. I could probably go on all day about social quirks that could be present, how certain mindsets can conflict, and how it relates to relationships all around the globe, but I feel I am in the least qualified to talk about that and leave the topic to someone to muse on in academia, nor will I give suggestions, because that is lost cause and I rather not get caught up in any drama. I will, however, say that relationships take a bit of sacrifice and sometimes things go awry. It happens, so let us not get caught up in it and continue the fun. ((Sounds like another offshoot divorce post? *divorces Tor!* ))

As for newer players getting involved, there are a lot of people in game that work hard to try and get people introduced to the setting. That is half the fun. But with so many people, it’s hard to get around to them all. My advice, as a guild leader, for anyone trying to get involved in a playing group is to either network (this does wonders outside of the game too) or give a nice personal message on the boards to someone who you would think knows something about it, then they will pass it on if need be.

Game on!

[Al-Kalim]

Thanks for the insights, Themicles! While I have to confess ignorance regarding what, exactly, world admins go through, I definitely do respect the contribution that our staff makes. Has anyone every considered doing (or actually done) some sort of "A day in the life of..." feature, to help lend understanding to just how much you deal with? Just what you wanted, right? Another suggestion for your to do list

CoPaP, was originally administered by the four founding leaders. Orleron, Pitched_Black, Ferus, and myself. Once it began to grow, things were done by majority vote. And Orleron's vote doesn't weigh more than anyone else's.

I'm glad to hear that this is the case, in practice. That is very much as I suspected how CoPaP was run. However, in at least the .html version of the Articles of Confederation at http://www.copap.org/portal.php?getpage=articles
a different picture of voting power is presented. It may simply be that this is out of date, but it does give the impression that CoPaP decisions, ultimately, are approved or denied by Orleron. Perhaps, more than anything else, the veto power as laid out just gives the appearance that Avlis is to blame for anything someone might happen to disagree with in CoPaP

[Tristan_Durst]

I have debated for a while of weather or not to jump in on this discussion, and express my views, and clear up some misunderstandings. Even though there were several issues as to why, I decided to leave the Confederation, most were express one time or another by me on the World Leader and Ambassador threads.

My biggest concern and regret was the utter lack of communication that occurred between worlds. The DMs of all of CoPaP can all attest that in our private forums, most threads were negative in scope, and hardly anything constructive went on.

When I started the Arborea Project, seven months ago, I was under full agreement to the Articles of the Confederation. I am still in agreement of them, and feel that an organization must have a foundation of rules and guidelines to be in one accord with. It is when the majority passes off the status quo of blatant disregard of such rules and regulations, or twisting them to their own ends that my Honor, Conscious, and Morals will not allow me to ignore.

CoPaP, was originally administered by the four founding leaders. Orleron, Pitched_Black, Ferus, and myself. Once it began to grow, things were done by majority vote. And Orleron's vote doesn't weigh more than anyone else's.

I'm glad to hear that this is the case, in practice. That is very much as I suspected how CoPaP was run. However, in at least the .html version of the Articles of Confederation at http://www.copap.org/portal.php?getpage=articles
a different picture of voting power is presented. It may simply be that this is out of date, but it does give the impression that CoPaP decisions, ultimately, are approved or denied by Orleron. Perhaps, more than anything else, the veto power as laid out just gives the appearance that Avlis is to blame for anything someone might happen to disagree with in CoPaP

This is true Orleron does have Final Veto right for anything that happens with CoPaP. He has even mentioned it would be used a couple of times since I came on board as a world leader.

Countering popular belief that I have an unquenchable hatred of Avlis, I don’t. In several dealings that may not have been popular, I have always stated there was to be no Us vs. Them attitude between Arborea and Avlis, or now Arborea and CoPaP. I have zero tolerance for flame postings, and Personal Attacks.

I have a lot of respect, and appreciation for several people that has help Arborea over the past seven months.

Teleri – World Leader of Outlands
Jaythespacehound – Former World of Arborea staff
SignificantOwl – Former World of Arborea staff
Snow – Former World of Arborea staff

Are the primary ones that helped. There are countless others I have met that I feel are excellent RPers.

Tor Varcent
Quicksilver
Tristran
Te (Tor’s wife)
Shappire Moon
Naith
Feril
And the list goes on.

All these people are all Avlis primary players. I look forward to coming over to Avlis one day and saying Hi to people. And have done so.

As for the “parting shots” that were fired, please note I have been diplomatic in my posting. I see Arborea as my child, one that I have seen grown from a concept on a few pieces of paper to a BETA server. I owe a lot to the staff of Arborea, both Past and Present for the care they have given to my child. I look over, and see Avlis, CoPaP, Outlands, Abyss404, Hala, and Rockhome, and see children as well. Some of the children are older than the others, and each has with it a dedicated team of parents to guide them for good (hopefully) or for bad (regrettable).

One day I do wish that My child could play with these other Children, but for now I can not allow that as the situation stands with CoPaP.

-Tristan

Signing off for a time. *clicks the radio button to off, and turns out the lights.*

[jaythespacehound]

I was Arborea's head scripter and second in command since pretty much the beginning but left when they parted ways with CoPaP for reasons posted on their boards somewhere.
I'm not going into the reasons for the split, just a couple of things posted here.

True avllis does share the crafting system and all it's code. Unfortunately most of the current versions are not readily obtainable from the copap ftp, and the copap development wiki has instructions that no longer apply to the versions that ARE obtainable, and sorely needs updating. (Some sections are not explained at all though I think this was starting to change)

I'm aware of course of the time limitations of Avlis staff and their will to produce as much new content for Avlis as possible but I feel someone should be making sure these resources are updated.

I feel this is one of the main reasons why worlds are having a hard time joining. I myself spent days going through the code I had to try and find whatever problem I was having, only to find that I hadn't attached a script called in one of the other scripts to an areas onEnter handle

That and the old versions of nwnx and the (old) ODBC link in the wiki and on the ftp held us back a fair way. And if you check the classifieds section on the CoPaP boards scripters seem to be in very short supply making this even more difficult for new worlds.
(there is actually a VERY nice tutorial on the nwnx site itself which is not linked to anywhere on copap afaik).

The other thing is the zero mod generously provided by avlis. A GREAT idea which would save a huge amount of work for new worlds, if it didn't have a couple of major problems. One: It doesn't seem to get updated enough (correct me if I'm wrong on that one)
2. The mod itself is corrupt and won't build yup that's a big'un
3. It contains ALL of avlis' custom items scripts etc in excess of 6000 resources new worlds will never use and which makes the mod laggy to work with and confusing.

There also seems to be a lack of people interested in helping young worlds as numerours queries by me and others received no replies. Something I also put down to time reasons.
Having to work everything out on your own can be a big hurdle trust me *grins*

Now don't get me wrong, I think CoPaP is a great idea and all of the code is VERY well written. People generally are quite helpful if you can get them to take notice of you, and the resources provided in terms of code and a sound framework saves YEARS of work, provided of course you can get it installed and working

To arborea: Tha best of luck! *raises a tankard of ale and turns away*

Jay

[GHENGIZ.KHAN]

Good luck Tristan, I really hope Arborea does well. You will be missed whether you believe it or not.

[Klazaroth]

This is terrible that Arborea is being bashed/unbashed even how civilised the tone is.

The stance Silk had posted from Grimm is supported by some of the Arborean staff/players and as well not supported by some of us.

Like me for example, who is currently DMing for Arborea. When Arborea decided to leave the CoPaP worlds I was truly shocked and stunned ... I was feeling tinged and sick for the whole day.

All I want to do is have fun with the friends I have made in both of these servers.

Guidelines and rules are important ... too much of the whole story is covered. I don't even know a quarter of it. It's much more then "Arborea doesn't like the guidelines so they are going to flog" ...

I hope the link can be remade in the future. I need to find out more.

What Arborea is all about

So I found out more; and it ended up with me being banned.

Communication was one of the keys and reasons why Tristian left CoPaP. Apparently there was not enough of it, with people being left in the dark and he was sick that instead of help, people would just flame each other.

So what happened? I communicated my opinion that Arborea should join back with CoPaP, at least try and relink once more as things could be learnt from this happening.

Without any warning my staff position in Arborea had been put on prohabition.

He did not even inform me that my position was suspended until after I was banned.

I see how communication is effectively worked in this server. I really absolutely see how Tristian plans to make his server very well spoken. No SARCASM.

So I logged on to DM while my prohibition was up and ran an NPC whose is from Faerun.

On the boards he had posted that:

In the Planescape setting, the relationships that a PC could have are endless. From a romantic, to political, to adversary the different types of these relationships with creatures are staggering. It is not uncommon to see a Tannar’ri Balor and a Celestial Solar having drinks together before going out and trying to kill each other in the Blood War.

Same Sex marriages and relationships are common and are not frowned upon.

Interspecies relationships are common as well, with more than just Humans, and Elves. Tieflings and Aasimar are bi-products of these sorts of relationships.

Thank you,

-Tristan

Of course I know that, this NPC is from Faerun where the thought is not similar. In progressing with the Roleplay with my NPC, Stella, she came across Tristan's, a male character who is homosexual.

There was RP where information of his sexual preferences being released (which I might assume is his RL preference now or at least Bi since all of his chars I've played with him through the years have that tendency) and since Stella was from a different plane, not yet use to the planescape settings I had rp'd to her IC tendencies.

So the rp went as followed.

CopperSilverGold = Tristian Durst
Female Tiefling = Stella

[CopperSilverGold] Anen La'tin'el: [Talk] *grins over to Cotton* Were talking about How I have not found someone that feels the same way as I do. *sighs some*
[sissywildcard] Cotton Nithray: [Talk] ::Tilts her head thinking on that::
[sissywildcard] Cotton Nithray: [Talk] Eh?
[CopperSilverGold] Anen La'tin'el: [Talk] *blushing* looking for a good man
[sissywildcard] Cotton Nithray: [Talk] Oh... OHS!! ::CHuckles nodding:: Sorries off in me own world
[Dish wash] Female Tiefling: [Talk] ... *looks at Anen* .. Oh ,.. yer were not jokin'?

Straight seeing, I was booted from the DM client and banned from the server. So this server has OOC consequences for playing your char IC. If your character does something hateful, then you as a player is also let into banishment. It is a CvC realm not a PvP one.

What is Arborea all about? Derive your answer from the happenings in this post. I knew Tristan Durst for a 2 years and considered him a good friend. ... I only play online to make and play with friends. If I cannot have that in Arborea, then I will not play there.

[Orleron]

For the record,

Number of Times Orleron has vetoed a CoPaP vote: 0


This should really be on the CoPaP boards, but ok.

CoPaP is made out of people, as someone very accurately mentioned above. See Themi's post above on the reasons why so few worlds actually link. Then see jaythespacehound's post on why CoPaP code is nice in theory, but hard to enact. Those observations are all true.

Now here's where the people part comes in. Behind the scenes, CoPaP is constantly trying to get people to update the code in the zero mod and the system erf's. Behind the scenes, I am constantly trying to get people on the Avlis Team to update these too, since I see it as their responsibility.

Problem is those jobs are BORING. People do not do boring jobs for hobbies. No matter how many times we try to get someone to actively do these tasks, they never do. Frankly, I don't blame them either. I don't do it myself for the same reasons.

So, look at it from my POV for a second. On the one hand, no one in the CoPaP staff will step up to a badly needed task that could turn the organization around and make it what we really want it to be, no matter how much I "give orders" or "ask nicely" to that effect. On the other hand, we have threads like this where people whine constantly about what's wrong with CoPaP, inevitably pointing to the fact that there's not enough code integration and systems sharing userfriendly-ness!!

Basically, I get it from both ends.

To the players: you're right about some things, but the manpower and will to fix them is just not there. So either step up or just play and bear it.


Having said that, I do take a lot of the blame for some of CoPaP's stagnancy. Historically, whenever I have been out there pounding on people's heads to get things done and to give results, CoPaP has done well. Problem is, right now, I do not have the time. I'm overextended. I also don't have the will anymore.

To be fair, the blame also partially rests among the other worlds. I came up with CoPaP based on the idea that people would hold up their own end of things. I assumed people would want to have their worlds be successful and they would put just as much work into it as I have. Well, so far, a lot of them have not. That is something I really can't do much about.


Hey, man, to those who say I shouldn't be the leader of CoPaP, I'm open to that. Truth is I could be doing other things that have a higher chance of success. But let me ask you this: Who?


I don't mean to sound egotistical, but I have rarely encountered another person who is willing and able to put in the amount of energy that I have put AND who simultaneously has the ability to manage all these different kinds of people without becoming wrapped up in their shit. If I am wrong, and you are someone like that or you know someone like that, by all means tell me.

Problem is people often don't know themselves well enough. They get inspired and they THINK they have what it takes, so they send that PM. Then the inspiration wears off and they find out what the reality is: that it completely sucks to be a PW leader if you're not careful, and often even if you are careful. Then they disappear. Good going.

So anyways, that's all I have to say about that. Note that I mentioned no worlds by name and am speaking in very general terms. If you are going to continue this thread, I suggest you do the same.

[Tristan_Durst]

EDITED: Agreed Orleron.... What was posted above is an Internal matter for Arborea.

As the Project Leader of the Arborea server, I do Apologise for airing of dirty laundry on your Fourms.

It was bad form.

-Tristan
Project Leader
Arborea
A Planescape Server

[Orleron]

Will you Arborea folks please stop pasting your internal stuff on my boards. Again, I don't see why Avlis should suffer for your actions.


Thanks.

[jaythespacehound]

I see what you mean Orl,
I was merely pointing out some problems, not an easy way of fixing them unfortunately
Jay

[Themicles]

Hey, man, to those who say I shouldn't be the leader of CoPaP, I'm open to that. Truth is I could be doing other things that have a higher chance of success. But let me ask you this: Who?

I can attest to this. I tried, once, when Orleron was gone for an extended period of time. I'd do it again, if I had to... but I wouldn't volunteer to take Orleron's position unless he absolutely had to disappear for a while.

Problem is people often don't know themselves well enough. They get inspired and they THINK they have what it takes, so they send that PM. Then the inspiration wears off and they find out what the reality is: that it completely sucks to be a PW leader if you're not careful, and often even if you are careful. Then they disappear. Good going.

I would've turned into one of these, if it wasn't for the great staff that I had early on that helped pushed us into linking. Hell, I became one of these after getting severely burned out. I'm sure everyone has noticed that Tairis hasn't grown much lately. But, now that I've recognized the problems that I've had, I am slowly, but surely, working back up to things on Tairis. And, to be honest, I don't think I would be without the support of one of my team members who still believes in the project.

-Themicles

[szabot]

...I'm sure everyone has noticed that Tairis hasn't grown much lately. But, now that I've recognized the problems that I've had, I am slowly, but surely, working back up to things on Tairis. ...
-Themicles

Yay!

[StoneKilla911]

I dont know if I have the right really have any input on this but im gonna give it a shot.

This is stupid. I've played most of my experience on Rockhome. I'm new actually reading posts, before I had fun playing on worlds that interacted with each other. I didnt need to read forums to find out what was going. There was a awesome player interaction. I never felt I needed to check forums to find out what the hell is going on with all these portals being shut down. I dont get it. This is truly sad that the world of Rockhome has become.

I've been playing on Hala, and have seen how dedicated there players are. Things sound as if there is no unity between Avlis and COPAP. What I like about Hala and Rockhome is that it wasnt Avlis. Avlis to me seems like it only cares about Avlis and thats it. I have heard from players on Hala about this whole thing about drow not being allowed in Avlis. This is BULL CRAP AND BIAS. If one RPs by covering his skin with armor and wears a hood he is an excellent RPer.

Why do these new servers get brought in while the old ones are being pushed aside. To me this is crap. Everything is all peachy when servers seem like they are involved and doing there job. I dont know what the hell is going on but there is a change come like someone said above. Some will like it, some may hate it. But I just hope we all remember that Avlis and COPAP would not be here if it wasnt for the players who are dedicated day in and day out to give life to these worlds. And yes I do feel newbies get shafted a lot referring to a comment about lack of being involved

I feel that if Avlis is shutting down all these portals to all the old COPAP worlds that Avlis is not fulfilling its end of the bargain. I suggest that there be some other server that links just the COPAP worlds together or either just link them together to keep Avlis on its toes. I for one think that Avlis needs something to compete with in insuring the enjoyment of portaling to other servers.

Like I said I'm new to this but I have fallen in love with some of these servers. I dont mean to come in here and justify my own feelings but I just want you guys to know that I'll be here for a long time and hope you guys will enjoy my RPing. There are other servers loaded with actual people that care about the status of what had happen as of late.

Here is something that may help with some player interaction with eachother. Evil will always battle Good and vise versa. Sometimes Good verse Good, and Sometimes Evil verse Evil. So lets keep it interesting and be fair to everyone and explore possibilities. I'm not sure how much or many DM's spend time on these servers or what they do. I just think you cant always rely on the DM's to make the stories for us. If players want, I feel they should story tell their own future. Make up something that happens. Walk in the tavern and spread some rumors, post a bulletin. Get peoplse attention. Post a good message, post a bad one. Be a good guy, be a bad guy. If people criticise your message make sure its just all within the legal limits thats all. These servers are for the players.
You know sometimes people do certain things just to liven things up. No offense to anyone but for my self, im not into just sitting at a camp site and chatting, falling in love, or clogging up the talk line with boring stuff. I need excitement. I left avlis to get away from that personally. Maybe I have A.D.D. or something as of late, but man, I need some action. Something. And im not just talking about hack/slashing. I mean actual ROLL PLAYING. Whip out them old ADnD books again and start actually making some stuff interesting. Those old Adventures are waiting to be used and played with.

Like I said guys, I dont know too much about this stuff but I hope maybe someone who can make a difference fixes the flaws that is occurring. By next year we will be giving the best RP game ever created in NWN2. Please lets see if we can make Avlis and COPAP the greatest experience fore everyone to play on.

I hope what I have said can help our situation. I look forward to RPing with you guys and hope my experience is enjoyable as well to you.

[Arkonswrath]

I'll chime in here as the Head DM of Hala.

I was originally against the current portal closing. Reason being, I felt that it alienated the worlds too much.

However!!! Things are being done to bring CoPaP more into the true Planescape setting. In True Planescape fashion, you are not going to go through a door, hop on a little yellow circle and magically appear on a new plane with no negatives and no consequences.

Avlis is on the Prime Material Plane. Hala (Ysgard) is in the outer planes. In order to go from one to the other, one of two things needs to happen... A) You die. B) You pass through the Astral Plane. Since there is currently no astral plane server, the link has been cut. Other links are forming to make up for the loss of the currents.

Illithia (SP) Once it is completed will relink the Prime Material Worlds together.

Outlands, and hopefully other to come worlds in the future, will server as the primary hub that will link the various outer/inner plane worlds to the Prime Worlds.

Inner/Outer plane worlds as well as Prime Worlds who are interested will have the ability to portal to and from Hala via the Infinate Staircase we are currently working on.

As you can see, there will be no shortage of ways to get to other worlds as they come into the Confederation. We are just making things in a more realistic manner to the way Planescape was written. It's just taking some time getting the needed code written, areas built, and agreements between the worlds established. Once that is done, those links will start appearing enforce.

CoPaP does have it's issues.. but so does every family, and that's what I look at us as. We are a family of Servers working to make a fun place for the players to play. Families have spats, but they work them out. So do we for the most part.

So all in all, let's all just do what we came here and joined CoPaP to do. Have fun, and stop worrying about why this happened to that. CoPaP is moving forward, and a lot has progressed just in the Time i've been a part of various Teams in CoPaP. I've seen a lot of issues get squared away. I've seen WLs come and go. But the constant is always there. CoPaP keeps on progressing. Keep the faith and we'll keep making CoPaP a fun place to play

[Game-Extremist]

I feel that if Avlis is shutting down all these portals to all the old COPAP worlds that Avlis is not fullfilling its end of the bargain. I suggest that there be some other server that links just the COPAP worlds together or either just link them together to keep Avlis on its toes. I for one think that Avlis needs something to compete with in insuring the enjoyment of portaling to other servers.

Avlis is not shutting portals down to piss people or other persistent worlds off, far from it,With the Outlands persistent world about to be linked to Avlis - and the other PW's, the ability to travel between PW's will exist again.

This makes alot more sense and is line with the DnD rules on how the different planes interact with each other, so the outlands act as a kind of hub. Avlis being linked to Hala (Heroic Domain of Ysgard) is not correct , hence the IC and OOC removal/destruction of the portal, the same applies to Rockhome/Mystara.

Here is a quote from Teleri from the Outlands forums (which is coming along nicely too btw ) that explains it quite simply...

http://www.greatring.net/index.php - Outlands website for more info.

The general scoop on the outlands is that it is an outer plane in fact it is also called the plane of neutrality, or The Concordant Opposition. Linked to the plane are all of the other outler planes through a thing called Gate Towns.

Glorium is the Gate town to the outer plane of Ysgard (CG/N).

In the Web Links area there are lots of links to fack and fiction abou the outerplanes some is good and true others are bald faced lies told to confuse the unweary.

Those on the prime material often mistakenly call them the "death planes" because that is where their souls go when they die.


Cheers,
teleri

Hope this helps ease your frustration and gives you a greater understanding of what CoPaP is trying to do stonekilla911

*kicks dead horse*

oh and one thing too....making a Drow PC is not allowed on Avlis mainly cos they don't exist, Sereg - the closest thing Avlis has to a Drow do exist and is killed on sight. Are they playable as PC's? Not that I am aware of at this present time.

If however a PC from Hala or any other world for the matter brought a Drow or other dark skinned Elf to Avlis via a portal, they would be killed on sight.

[loki70]

Question, and I know this is a bit much, but since monks are considered outsiders at 20th, will their ki be effected by planewalking, and how. Normally, if I remember correctly, if you had +3 ki, and went to the outer planes, it would be +4, and would go down to +2 on the inner planes. Oh, and will there be planar weapons? And about a dozen other questions that only tangently belong in this thread.

[pincushionman]

Question, and I know this is a bit much, but since monks are considered outsiders at 20th, will their ki be effected by planewalking, and how. Normally, if I remember correctly, if you had +3 ki, and went to the outer planes, it would be +4, and would go down to +2 on the inner planes. Oh, and will there be planar weapons? And about a dozen other questions that only tangently belong in this thread.

Probably ought to search for other threads about those, or start a new thread. Methinks it would be a bad idea to try to get any real answer about game mechanics in this one. Not that you won't get one, but this thread seems to be less about mechanics and implementation and more about other issues.

[loki70]

Question, and I know this is a bit much, but since monks are considered outsiders at 20th, will their ki be effected by planewalking, and how. Normally, if I remember correctly, if you had +3 ki, and went to the outer planes, it would be +4, and would go down to +2 on the inner planes. Oh, and will there be planar weapons? And about a dozen other questions that only tangently belong in this thread.

Probably ought to search for other threads about those, or start a new thread. Methinks it would be a bad idea to try to get any real answer about game mechanics in this one. Not that you won't get one, but this thread seems to be less about mechanics and implementation and more about other issues.

Not that important. I won't have a 20th level monk for probably about another year or so, and wanted to put a more positive spin on this thread, since it is on CoPaP and all. Ah well, so much for that idea.

[pincushionman]

Yeah, I think it would be better to let this one go than try to save it, myself. Less work, and less temptation to keep bringing it back to the top of the pile. Plus, even if you did get an important answer, anytime anyone wanted to look it up they'd have to sort through all this crap.

[slave_of_emotions]

Question, and I know this is a bit much, but since monks are considered outsiders at 20th, will their ki be effected by planewalking, and how. Normally, if I remember correctly, if you had +3 ki, and went to the outer planes, it would be +4, and would go down to +2 on the inner planes. Oh, and will there be planar weapons? And about a dozen other questions that only tangently belong in this thread.

I would direct questions like that to teleri on http://www.greatring.net since he seems to be the guru of planar codes

As for the connections been cut, the only reason i know why outlands is not yet linked with avlis is a problem in the code since its the first link between a linux and windows server.

[Kareth]

I've been playing on Hala, and have seen how dedicated there players are. Things sound as if there is no unity between Avlis and COPAP. What I like about Hala and Rockhome is that it wasnt Avlis. Avlis to me seems like it only cares about Avlis and thats it. I have heard from players on Hala about this whole thing about drow not being allowed in Avlis. This is BULL CRAP AND BIAS. If one RPs by covering his skin with armor and wears a hood he is an excellent RPer.

You can play a Drow on Avlis - nothing is stopping you. You can not CREATE a Drow on Avlis.

Drow might find that they are mistaken for Sereg and killed however they can be played. Drow are not native to Avlis, and the only dark skin elves native to Avlis are considered KOS in many places on Avlis. This is just an IC consequence of planar travelling.

I know of players on Avlis who have problems with some other worlds because they have seen PCs who go off world for a couple of weeks and come back having gained levels very quickly and with decent gear. So it cuts both ways.

[slave_of_emotions]

I've been playing on Hala, and have seen how dedicated there players are. Things sound as if there is no unity between Avlis and COPAP. What I like about Hala and Rockhome is that it wasnt Avlis. Avlis to me seems like it only cares about Avlis and thats it. I have heard from players on Hala about this whole thing about drow not being allowed in Avlis. This is BULL CRAP AND BIAS. If one RPs by covering his skin with armor and wears a hood he is an excellent RPer.

You can play a Drow on Avlis - nothing is stopping you. You can not CREATE a Drow on Avlis.

Drow might find that they are mistaken for Sereg and killed however they can be played. Drow are not native to Avlis, and the only dark skin elves native to Avlis are considered KOS in many places on Avlis. This is just an IC consequence of planar travelling.

I know of players on Avlis who have problems with some other worlds because they have seen PCs who go off world for a couple of weeks and come back having gained levels very quickly and with decent gear. So it cuts both ways.

The problem is not that they give ever to much gear, just look at it this way: Avlis has alot players and relativ few DMs, it means that people get involved less in events and quests and so get less non-shop gear.
If you play on outlands/abyss/hala you chances to get involved into a quest are far greater since it has far less players and so you might gain there more non standart gear then on avlis since you are in move events, not becase DMs there give out more or better gear then avlis DMs or any other world.

As for Drow, i know(knew - since one of them died permamently) 2 of them that were playing on avlis and eighter of them did i hear complain about KOS and eighter of them did make that char only to come over to avlis and play them here, both had IC reasons for being here that accured due to events they were in.

EDIT: i think it is time evryone takes a deep breath and calms down

[Kareth]

Yes, you are more likely to get DM attention on servers with less players.

However, I have heard of players who take a trip to other servers to buy potions for less then people who CRAFT them can afford to sell them on Avlis.

Players have also bought off-world STORE gear - not DM items, and then trading these for a large mark-up on Avlis just because they are the sort of things that are not sold in shops here. On a short trip to another server I have seen items in regular stores that I have only seen sold in player owned stores or Auctions on Avlis.

[slave_of_emotions]

Yes, you are more likely to get DM attention on servers with less players.

However, I have heard of players who take a trip to other servers to buy potions for less then people who CRAFT them can afford to sell them on Avlis.

Players have also bought off-world STORE gear - not DM items, and then trading these for a large mark-up on Avlis just because they are the sort of things that are not sold in shops here. On a short trip to another server I have seen items in regular stores that I have only seen sold in player owned stores or Auctions on Avlis.

And people from other servers come here to buy gear that is availible only on avlis, dont see a problem.

Trust me, alot of gear on avlis is something that i would pay on hala alot on a auction or when bought from another player.

[apandapion]

Players have also bought off-world STORE gear - not DM items, and then trading these for a large mark-up on Avlis just because they are the sort of things that are not sold in shops here. On a short trip to another server I have seen items in regular stores that I have only seen sold in player owned stores or Auctions on Avlis.

Considering the kind of things that you buy offworld are the same kinds of things that will get eaten if you are dead and the server reboots, I imagine people are mostly going back for duplicates of things they lost.