ESP or ICC?

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:27 am

Next time I level I can take either Epic Spell Penetration or Improved Combat Casting.

Sinomi will be 8wiz/2fighter/13pm and is a "steelcaster."

His caster level is low (at level 23 his caster level is 15 - and that's just for hooked spells), so, on one hand, ESP could help make up for that, but, on the other hand, since his chance to beat spell resistance is already low, an additional +2 to beat SR might not make much of a difference.

Part of the idea with him is to not get hit much (high AC), so ICC wouldn't help too often anyway (even if enemies get AoO when he casts, they're not likely to hit). On the other hand, it can be a big problem when an important spell does get interrupted, so ICC could be really helpful sometimes.

I think they'd both be IC, too.

So...I don't know what to do...any thoughts from anyone?

Oh, and keep this in mind: whichever one I don't take, I won't really have another opportunity to take for a long, long time (because EMA and auto-stills will come next). So, it really is one or the other.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:38 am

Improved Combat Casting, definitely. Don't give the opponent more chances to roll 20's, and besides, +2 on SR checks is far more marginal. Chances are anything with significant enough magic resistance to truly make a difference will not be lessened by another +2, whereas ICC comes in handy whenever you are trying to throw a spell.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:52 am

Between those I would go Epic Spell Penetration unless your concentration isn't very high. I don't see any reason to get Improved Combat Casting since you can eliminate AoO's simply by using Defensive Casting Mode

aldo ixnay · Post by **aldo ixnay** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:54 am

ICC has made casting Mass Heals while being completely surrounded by really nasty things like Rift Vampires or Dranuhl's High Guard much less of a suicide mission than before...

not sure how that example really helps a palemaster but you get the point

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:55 am

eNTrOpY wrote:Between those I would go Epic Spell Penetration unless your concentration isn't very high. I don't see any reason to get Improved Combat Casting since you can eliminate AoO's simply by using Defensive Casting Mode

Good point about DCM, but I've noticed that it often seems to take several rounds to get into it. Plus, I probably swing my sword more often in battle than I cast spells - switching into DCM often might be a bit of a pain (would be easier, though, if it could be quickslotted).

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:57 am

aldo ixnay wrote:ICC has made casting Mass Heals while being completely surrounded by really nasty things like Rift Vampires or Dranuhl's High Guard much less of a suicide mission than before...

not sure how that example really helps a palemaster but you get the point

I guess the equivalent would be something like: "ICC would make casting negative energy bursts to heal my summons while being completed surrounded by paladins much easier."

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:59 am

Midknight wrote:Improved Combat Casting, definitely. Don't give the opponent more chances to roll 20's, and besides, +2 on SR checks is far more marginal. Chances are anything with significant enough magic resistance to truly make a difference will not be lessened by another +2, whereas ICC comes in handy whenever you are trying to throw a spell.

That's sort of my take on ESP - anything that can resist my spells is likely to resist them even if I have an extra +2 to penetration. That's largely why I'm leaning toward ICC.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:05 am

Neither of them are really worth an epic feat, IMHO... there are no other options available?

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:34 am

kombinat wrote:Neither of them are really worth an epic feat, IMHO... there are no other options available?

Only Epic Resistance. Unfortunately, it's a bonus pale master feat, but I can't yet take auto-still or Epic Spell Focus (need 9th level spells first) and can't yet take epic spells (need to be 15th level pale master for those). No other choices.

What do you think about epic resistance instead? Epic resistance to fire could make me pretty strong against darkfire and flame weapon.

Kyprioth · Post by **Kyprioth** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:35 am

I agree with Kombinat; take something else... Like the GOOD Epic Spells. Neither ESP nor ICC are the best Epic Feats

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:37 am

Kyprioth wrote:I agree with Kombinat; take something else... Like the GOOD Epic Spells. Neither ESP nor ICC are the best Epic Feats

Heh, you and I responded to him at the same time. See my response above. Only one other option: epic resist.

Albion · Post by **Albion** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:44 am

How high is your concentration and do you cast mainly buffs then use your sword. Or do you cast offensive spells as well, depends on your style really.

Tigg · Post by **Tigg** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:02 am

If it was me I would take Improved Combat Casting because then it becomes a strategy you can truly depend on. Also it will probably save your life more than once

Almost dead, casting to go invisible on yourself for instance.

Though I will say that Epic Spell Penetration would make your progress (exp) just a little quicker since you are hitting that % more with your spells. So... if you do not much find yourself in the situation of being in up-close danger often, take that one.

But I really do think you will notice the difference more, with Improved Combat Casting.

Good luck either way though, neither choice of those two is so bad.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:11 am

ICC can save your life again and again; ESP can slightly increase your odds of success. The difference is between a defensive and offensive ability - and in this case, the defensive ability can help you avoid a lot of damage when fighting groups, while the offensive ability will help some of your spells work a bit more often.

Between the two, the choice seems clear to me.

I'd also take ICC over Epic Resists - you'll use ICC literally every time you cast in combat.

- Aloro

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:19 am

I went for ICC with QS and didn't regret it. Switiching to DC mode is ok, but takes a round I believe? ICC is especially useful to a fighter mage type, as often you WILL be in the middle of groups of critters, much more so than a normal mage. Furthermore, if something is resisting your spells, you always have the option of hitting Tensers and going and smacking them round with your sword.

Kyprioth · Post by **Kyprioth** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:34 am

If there are no other options, I'd go for ICC. As most above say, its nicer for your 'steelcaster' than ESP. If you still think it would be worth it, take it on your next bonus feat level.

Shade Stalker · Post by **Shade Stalker** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:22 pm

szabot wrote:
Midknight wrote:Improved Combat Casting, definitely. Don't give the opponent more chances to roll 20's, and besides, +2 on SR checks is far more marginal. Chances are anything with significant enough magic resistance to truly make a difference will not be lessened by another +2, whereas ICC comes in handy whenever you are trying to throw a spell.
That's sort of my take on ESP - anything that can resist my spells is likely to resist them even if I have an extra +2 to penetration. That's largely why I'm leaning toward ICC.

You can lessen opponents SR with spells such as Mord's and Spell Breach too so even less reason to take ESP.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:40 pm

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I'm still leaning toward ICC. Still have a while before I'll get to make the choice anyway.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:52 am

Any more suggestions about this?

Post by **tindertwiggy** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:32 am

Shouldn't be a question. You are a steelcaster take ICC and be done with it.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:05 pm

Yeah, I think it'll be ICC. While they all fit the character, I think, it might fit it a little better. Since the other differences seem so close, that's the way to go. Meh.