Why are Holy Warriors crap?

Kitten · Post by **Kitten** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:02 pm

Serineth Swiftpaw wrote:lol, Confounders have better shifting abilities than Druids do.

They get better BAB at least... They also get humanoid shape, but you have to remember you'd be about level 38 before you actually beat a druid at shifting...

Hortis wrote:You can take weapon focus even if you can't use the weapon.

Hortis is a halfling Confounder with weapon focus: Heavy flail, despite the fact that he can't use a heavy flail.

How novel.

I've noticed when people are making classes for themselves they either make them quite weak or much, much too strong. It seems the holy warriors go into the quite weak category...

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:02 pm

Hortis wrote:You can take weapon focus even if you can't use the weapon.

Hortis is a halfling Confounder with weapon focus: Heavy flail, despite the fact that he can't use a heavy flail.

*Tries to imagine Hortis with a heavy flail*

Arnimane · Post by **Arnimane** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:22 am

choraldances wrote:
Hortis wrote:You can take weapon focus even if you can't use the weapon.

Hortis is a halfling Confounder with weapon focus: Heavy flail, despite the fact that he can't use a heavy flail.
*Tries to imagine Hortis with a heavy flail*

Dragging it along the ground behind him?

Stormhammer · Post by **Stormhammer** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:23 am

*imagines Hortis attempting to use it in a fight, and actually knocking himself out before his opponent*

Hortis · Post by **Hortis** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:43 am

Yeah, because Hortis would be OH SO MUCH better than he normally is, where as soon as he engages in combat he DPs.

You know, maybe Hortis needs to take some feats to ensure he doesn't hit himself in combat?

The other entertaining thing is that he's got a light flail and heavy confounder armor... but he's a dex build with weapon finesse, so he can't use either of those either.

Great for RP though.

Zamael668 · Post by **Zamael668** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:43 am

Hortis wrote:Yeah, because Hortis would be OH SO MUCH better than he normally is, where as soon as he engages in combat he DPs.

You know, maybe Hortis needs to take some feats to ensure he doesn't hit himself in combat?

The other entertaining thing is that he's got a light flail and heavy confounder armor... but he's a dex build with weapon finesse, so he can't use either of those either. Great for RP though.

I dunno...

... Is there a Grow Two Feet Taller feat?

*ducks and runs*

Ragin · Post by **Ragin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:16 am

If you want to increase the power of Avlis's holy warriors I would suggest moving the turn feats to level three so they are in line with paladins and blackguards. I am not certain if all the turn feats unlock divine might and divine shield like turn undead but if so, those are some of the most powerful abilities a holy warrior can take so long as they have decent charisma.

Now another reason to knock it in line with blackguards and paladins is not just so they get it at the same time, but Avlis's holy warriors have higher requirements and thus don't get their PRC until later.. so you have a small problem.. they get it later but for some odd reason have to wait longer for the two biggest hard hitting abilities? Seems a little off to me...

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:17 am

So boss, how about those new abilities you thought they had?

I wonder if this might be a task for a subcontractor...? *digs around for application*

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:57 am

Ragin wrote:I am not certain if all the turn feats unlock divine might and divine shield like turn undead but if so, those are some of the most powerful abilities a holy warrior can take so long as they have decent charisma.

Feats like Turn Outsider and Turn Construct do not count as requirements for Divine Might and Divine Shield, sadly. Only Turn Undead will do and i think that only Dominators and Avengers get it.

Salis · Post by **Salis** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:11 am

re new skills suggestions: why should holy warriors all be cha based?

i have cha 9 and may go champ route ... lovely to think that smite evil will come with a -1 to hit and -1 damage!

*wimpy voice* take that mr nasty zombie!
*squeely voice* eew, it goobered all over me!!!! o'ma HELP!

OK, part of this is i dont want my char to be nerfed if you buff all holy warriors but its also questioning why all holy warriors should have cha based skills. Smite by all means but why cant champs be dex based smite?

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:19 am

The smite abilities are only partly CHA based. The smiter adds his CHA modifier to the attack roll but the damage bonus is equal to his levels in the class that has granted him the smite ability.

Also, i'm pretty sure that negative CHA modifiers aren't applied in this case, same way that a paladin with low CHA doesn't end with a penalty to his saving throws rather than a bonus.

Sojan · Post by **Sojan** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:21 pm

And I must add to what Mortzestus said...

There is not many charisma based char around and many will put 8 in charisma to be able to boost other abilities since it doesn't impact the IG interactions and stuff. So I say it's a good thing that not only Sorc/Bards/Pal need this...(and some clerics who focus on turning undeads). I say that to have abilities like those based on charisma will lead to some charisma points to be added. Then we won't meet an 8 charisma char with courtlike politeness and kingly diplomatic talks.

And, I think too that the neg bonus on charisma won't affect the toHit and Dmg for the Smite Evil.

Semley · Post by **Semley** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:56 pm

Nope, you're all wrong.

All this are they weak/aren't they weak stuff is completley beside the point - everyone knows holy warriors are cool, and as all the kids know, if you're cool, nothing else matters.

The biggest problem with going holy warrior is that you start thinking about becoming one, then two or so months later decide to become one, and then four months later still are still waiting to become one. This is longer than the time between me starting to think about buying a house and the time I finally owned one in real life. Though in fairness, the real estate agent didn't live nine timezones away from me

Beary666 · Post by **Beary666** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:58 pm

Any body know how many skill points Avengers get per level?

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:32 am

2. Which is a pity for the number of skills they get

So close to testing ingame... maybe, kinda... *sighs*

Abdenago · Post by **Abdenago** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:09 pm

I think Amras is a couple levels away from getting the last pre req I need for Avenger. Was really looking forward to that when I get back.

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:15 pm

Gairus wrote:So boss, how about those new abilities you thought they had?

I wonder if this might be a task for a subcontractor...? *digs around for application*

*bump*

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:11 pm

OK then. We're reevaluating the Holy Warriors, and making some changes. As you've already seen, it is now easier to become a Holy Warrior - you don't need to join the Holy Order of that god anymore.

In addition, the Holy Warriors are being rebalanced. With all the new feats and powers, this is now much easier.

The discussions about balancing the classes will take place in the Holy Order forums for each god. That is to say, the Hands of Dru'El already discussed updating the Avenger, the Followers of Forian are currently contemplating the Confounder, the Sword of Toran are developing the Justicar, etc. Each guild will be contacted in turn.

- Aloro

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:26 am

Aloro wrote:OK then. We're reevaluating the Holy Warriors, and making some changes. As you've already seen, it is now easier to become a Holy Warrior - you don't need to join the Holy Order of that god anymore.

In addition, the Holy Warriors are being rebalanced. With all the new feats and powers, this is now much easier.

The discussions about balancing the classes will take place in the Holy Order forums for each god. That is to say, the Hands of Dru'El already discussed updating the Avenger, the Followers of Forian are currently contemplating the Confounder, the Sword of Toran are developing the Justicar, etc. Each guild will be contacted in turn.

- Aloro

That's great. But how do you gain access to the forum to have some say in the development if you are not in the Holy Order? I have a character in the Sword, as a deputy, but he is inactive. I restarted a similar character in Kuras (the first one wouldn't fit, even if he had the gold), who is not in the Sword, because the guild isn't there yet. What should I do?

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:41 am

loki70 wrote:That's great. But how do you gain access to the forum to have some say in the development if you are not in the Holy Order? I have a character in the Sword, as a deputy, but he is inactive. I restarted a similar character in Kuras (the first one wouldn't fit, even if he had the gold), who is not in the Sword, because the guild isn't there yet. What should I do?

Well... if you're not in the Holy Order, and you have some thoughts you'd like to share about balancing the Justicar, you can PM me over the next week or so.

- Aloro

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:51 am

Ooh! Candy! Stuff to not know in advance and learn while playing!

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Wed May 18, 2005 6:03 am

Gairus wrote:Ooh! Candy! Stuff to not know in advance and learn while playing!

Slane Swift · Post by **Slane Swift** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:58 pm

well you wouldnt choose an epic holy warrior just to be great and have uberness, its for the roleplaying

KeirannHalcynn · Post by **KeirannHalcynn** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:15 pm

Slane Swift wrote:well you wouldnt choose an epic holy warrior just to be great and have uberness, its for the roleplaying

darn right. especially Avengers. think of all the RPing you could do with them.

Drysh · Post by **Drysh** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:49 am

Good to know the holy warriors are being updated.

[rant]
I know they are for RP, but all classes are... They don't have to be weak to make sure there are only good RPers... There are a lot of excelent players that DO like powerful characters.
[/rant]

Since I don't have a holy warrior character, I don't belong to any of the holy orders... So here are my suggestions:
- Remove the need of weapon focus to qualify. This is not just for Avlis, but all the other worlds in CoPaP would benefit from this as they will be able to use the holy warriors too with a not so restrictive requirement. If you want to enforce the use of a weapon, make special weapons for each order. But it will also make it possible to take them without a level in fighter (you could make a priest/holy warrior).
- If you don't like the above, consider removing the large weapons from the list, or put a medium/small weapon as an option.
- I had a plan to make the holy warriors using the paladin (changing the name of the class to holy warrior), and changing the powers to reflect alignment. This would let them cast spells like paladins, using the NWN engine. If you like this idea, I'm not in any project right now, and I'm back and ready to work. The only problem I see with that aproach is that all holy warriors will have to be remade (and changed to paladin). Hard, but we may script that too (NPC to correc the class).