Are Dev Critting NPCs fun.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:13 pm

I think that's a matter of style, not a veteran/apprentice thing

Correct. I've read the discription of the incident, the DM did nothing wrong.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:18 pm

Vergilius wrote:
I think that's a matter of style, not a veteran/apprentice thing
Correct. I've read the discription of the incident, the DM did nothing wrong.

at which point did i say the DM did anything wrong? someone brought up the fact that how do i know that the pc has dev crit?

Secondly at what point do i know there are insurmountable odds? if i saw a hard situation and beat it is that not a good thing?? I beat a REALLY hard opponent and got fucked up for it!??? In my minds eye i would of thought it would be the other way round.

I remember i think it was Ronin spawned some BIG BAD fire giant commander on me, he hasted him, healed him, everything you can think of. I beat him after about 15mins and he said well done. Now this time i did a similar feat and got dev critted for it. HOW do i know the difference between the two!?

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:18 pm

Moredo wrote:Does it really matter which tool the DM uses? Your actions have consequences

This is a fitting last word.

We don't need any more discussion over the incident in question. The player doesn't need any further goading by other players, nor does the team need to hear any further public goading/ranting from the player. As always, the proper avenue for expressing that you've been treated unfairly is to send an email to the staff@avlis.org

This thread has degenerated far enough.

horatio · Post by **horatio** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:27 pm

Ever notice how the different Equalizers use different types of weapons? Now, to follow this question even further, ever notice what type of weapon the Dev. Crit. Equalizers use?

Of course, doesn't everyone?

I'll attest to Verg shouting about the odds... and how many PCs often miss those bits of info.

When Blandenberg was overrun and reenforced, the Lono command group made it a no-go area. That should have been all the IC info people needed to 'realize' the odds were stacked. It wasn't and patrols kept heading there and getting slaughtered. *shrugs* choose your fate. I choose to run from Eq's with particular weapons.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:33 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:Secondly at what point do i know there are insurmountable odds?...HOW do i know the difference between the two!?

Fair question. *takes notes on clarity for his own griefing elsewhere*

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:33 pm

this was 2 days ago, it wasnt reinforced, and has been the focus of ordinary patrols for about a week now. i agree this thread is getting silly. ive said my piece, shame it degenerated into a rant thread, this isnt what i wanted.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:50 pm

[hijack]
Alex - I always thought it was traditional to kill the support characters first because they were squishier... and less resistant to knockdowns. As opposed to because they have the highest offence.

This is my experience at lower levels and in other games, correct me if i'm wrong about higher levels

*thinks back to his days playing DAoC where his most valuable contribution to PvP was to run around in circles distracting as many warriors as possible, and having so little hp that he was just free realmpoint bait*
[hijack]

Rain&Clouds · Post by **Rain&Clouds** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:58 pm

apandapion wrote:
Rain&Clouds wrote:It's not about fun it's about realism. Realism is why we don't just gather some epic characters and march into Mikona, even though if we do it, NPC wise, we can probably kill them all. Well that and the fact we don't want to hurt them...

If there is an unbeatable NPC, you're not supposed to be there to have fun in the first place!
If you want to trot out the realism arguments, one has to wonder why you have to hit someone about a dozen times with a sword when, really, one or two good swings should do it. Once the arterial bleeding starts they just flop around a lot.

I'm afraid you missed the point of my post. Of course many levels of realism can't be reached, and that's exactly what makes it fun... we can be ambushed by a huge ogre and still live. What I said is that some things HAVE to remain as realistic as possible.

If a Nanshi soldier walks into Mikona whistleing, the soldier would be killed VERY quickly in PnP. There are exceptions of course, greater sanctuary, shadow dancers, experienced illusionists; but the point is you're not supposed to do it.

The DM's way of saying you can't go to Nelthrope is by making hundreds of equalizers rush out of the keep and kill you. Since it can't be done because of the lag, they replace this by a few strong NPCs, to keep the challenge level the same.

There is a line between realism and fun, and it's the DM's who make this line. The DM there said "No you can't be here no matter who you are, so you get killed" and it has to be acceptable, as the DM is ALWAYS right (that would be Rule 0). The only "flaw" was the lack of communication, and constructive criticism helps much more than a poll like this. Vergilius said the DM was right, my opinion was that it lacked a description like I've seen Vergilius make.

If this poll had been strictly about that particular feat and not the event itself it would be fine by me, but it only seems that right now it's stirring up things with unnecessary arguments.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:42 am

Besides, I think it's fair enough to say that the DM will usually give clear indication of some sort to mark the fact that the NPC's will have Dev. Crit., aside from most common sense scenarios. I'm sure they know what's happening on the other end too.

Serineth Swiftpaw · Post by **Serineth Swiftpaw** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:20 am

Midknight wrote:Besides, I think it's fair enough to say that the DM will usually give clear indication of some sort to mark the fact that the NPC's will have Dev. Crit., aside from most common sense scenarios. I'm sure they know what's happening on the other end too.

*has been in many situations where Dev Crit NPC's just appeared and killed everyone*

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:51 pm

Dev Crit is tha suck.

it would be soo much better if changed, but it cannot be.

It should be a dex feat, as all criticals are finesse, and finesse is based on dexterity, so dev crit therefore should also be based on dex.

The entire Dev Crit issue would be resolved if it required 25 DEX to get AND had the DC based on STR as it is currently.

Then only rogues, who should kill folks in one round once they sneak up on someone, would have it, and the DC would be lower since their STR sucks. And Dex fighters, who really deserve this kind of boost.

But, alas, it is how it is, and cannot be changed, so... Live and let die.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:08 pm

Nimrod25 wrote:
apandapion wrote:
Malathyre wrote:My own personal opinion is that insta-death abilities of any kind are teh suck. I just don't like them in my roleplaying games, but that's me. Character life/death or NPC life/death is not something I like seeing come down to an opposed dice roll. This has nothing to do with liking/disliking a challenge, I just don't like insta-death abilities for anyone. It cheapens the experience for me.
High level DnD is packed with instant death spells, and it only takes some dispelling to make almost anyone suceptable to death magic. You'd have to rewrite the whole magic system to remove instant death attacks.
Yeah, the epic area of necromancy is to be truly feared. Spells like momento mori and tolodine's can be very scary. Personnally i hope these are implemented in the epic spell system being designed over copap, epic necromancers are surrounded by fear and hatred for a good reason. They are the types heroes should strive to knock off.

I never suggested making any changes to magic or changing the way Avlis is or the D&D game mechanics work. My own opinion is that insta-death abilities cheapen the rp experience for me, I don't like them. For that reason, D&D will always be one of my least favorite dice/game mechanics systems, because as you pointed out, it is chock full of insta-death abilities and necromantic insta-death spells that almost any class can get (and yes, mind affect powers and spammed knockdown which have you on the ground for 15 rounds while everyone punds the crap out of you are just as dislikeable for me).

I think there are better dice systems and better magic systems out there, that's all. The poll question wasn't, "Should we change the way the system here on Avlis works?" It was, "Do you like Devastating Crit NPC's?" My answer is still no, I don't like them, because I don't like any insta-death abilities. That doesn't mean I'm calling for the entirety of D&D to be changed. It just means, for me, when I look to run a PnP game, I'm not going to ever run a D&D game.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:40 pm

Maybe a little off-topic...but I kind of prefer instant death spells and abilities to others sorts of combat in at least one respect. To me, it actually seems more believable. Someone hit in the head by a huge weapon should be killed. He shouldn't be able to be hit by that weapon twenty times before he is killed. Of course, this whole thing is fantasy though...so...meh. *shrugs*

Oh yeah, my main has a bunch of instant death abilities or spells and is immune to crits.

I don't know what I'm talking about...I'll go back to work now.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:48 pm

szabot wrote:Maybe a little off-topic...but I kind of prefer instant death spells and abilities to others sorts of combat in at least one respect. To me, it actually seems more believable. Someone hit in the head by a huge weapon should be killed. He shouldn't be able to be hit by that weapon twenty times before he is killed. Of course, this whole thing is fantasy though...so...meh. *shrugs*

And that's fine, there's lots of folks who obviously do like insta-death abilities/spells. I have no interest in the realism vs. fantasy argument myself, it's just a matter of opinion to me, whether you like them or not. I don't honestly think there's one way that's "better" than the other in any sort of absolute sense.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:04 pm

What about my crazy orc head?

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:11 pm

To sum up:

DMs spawn foes for a lot of reasons, and some of these foes are going to be nigh-impossible or even impossible to beat. It happens. Sometimes it's just not realistic for a PC to be able to win. It happens. Sometimes PCs will DIE (or be forced to flee). It happens.

If you think a DM has treated you unfairly, write to staff@avlis.org. I've seen several complaints about DM actions here, and this is the wrong place for them.

If you just feel like complaining, take it to R&R.

- Aloro

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:52 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Dev Crit is tha suck.

it would be soo much better if changed, but it cannot be.

It should be a dex feat, as all criticals are finesse, and finesse is based on dexterity, so dev crit therefore should also be based on dex.

The entire Dev Crit issue would be resolved if it required 25 DEX to get AND had the DC based on STR as it is currently.

Then only rogues, who should kill folks in one round once they sneak up on someone, would have it, and the DC would be lower since their STR sucks. And Dex fighters, who really deserve this kind of boost.

But, alas, it is how it is, and cannot be changed, so... Live and let die.

Umm, why? Dev crit to me means you've just hacked a limb clear of the body and they die a very fast death. All criticals are finesse, what BS is that?

Ragin · Post by **Ragin** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:13 am

Sickocrow wrote:
WrathOG777 wrote:Dev Crit is tha suck.

it would be soo much better if changed, but it cannot be.

It should be a dex feat, as all criticals are finesse, and finesse is based on dexterity, so dev crit therefore should also be based on dex.

The entire Dev Crit issue would be resolved if it required 25 DEX to get AND had the DC based on STR as it is currently.

Then only rogues, who should kill folks in one round once they sneak up on someone, would have it, and the DC would be lower since their STR sucks. And Dex fighters, who really deserve this kind of boost.

But, alas, it is how it is, and cannot be changed, so... Live and let die.

Umm, why? Dev crit to me means you've just hacked a limb clear of the body and they die a very fast death. All criticals are finesse, what BS is that?

Agreed on that point, it is being so physically powerful a single blow kills. A good shot to a man in full armor is not quite going to do that, wow your arrow pierced through his breastplate penetrating near his heart. But his heart didn't stop so guess, what? Thats right, he is still coming.

Just my two cents.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:25 am

I believe that a critical hit can be both - note that finesse weapons like rapiers have a longer threat range - representing the finesse portion of the critical hit, while more brutal hacking weapons like greataxes have a smaller threat range but a greater multiplier (x3).

A devastating critical, on the other hand, is a critical hit so powerful that the organ hit causes your body to die - not simply from the damage of the wound - i.e. lopping the head off someone. As stated above, that implies some degree of power.

Micah · Post by **Micah** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:00 pm

There have been alot of interesting opinions/ideas about Dev Crit here...there has also been a sad amount of whining.

In various proportions.... Ultimately, if a DM spawns the hellishly powerful uber guy, that's fine. Especially with the armies, which are Type 2 guilds to the extreme, you can't expect to know every single face/blade/dev critter/deathmagic spammer you come across. Mikona has several million people, and just because some soldier doesn't sit at the rock smoking mellowsmoke doesn't mean he can't beat you six feet under with one slap of his diremace.

One dev critter, 10 dev critters...what's the difference? Especially if you are given an RP chance to get out of there. Now...if the DM spawns 10 dev critters, you run your ass away, just to find 10 more dev critters blocking your path on the other side so that there was no way you can escape, then ~maybe~ you have the right to whine. That's a big maybe though, because sometimes you just can't win, and the DM has the right to beat you down (still if you are clever you can escape/choose your fight).

I like the idea of heroes who don't have floaty names...as was said earlier, stop right-clicking and just realize that any opponent you face at any time may be dangerous. You should too. I like a challenge, and I like having to use every resource at my disposal just to escape if that's what it comes down to. My character hates it, but I as a player enjoy the variety.

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:49 pm

Just want to interject one point in between all the... stuff... in this thread.

Talwin asked how you'd know if an NPC has dev crit. Well, it doesn't go like this:

PC A: "Hey, there's a bunch of Equalizers... wussies, let's take them out."

PC B: "Hells no. Did you see that one's enlarged left testicle - he's got Dev Crit!"

---

Talwin also mentioned General Deth. Along the same lines, if General Deth walks out of his house to get some milk for his kittin Boobie, do you automatically know it's him? It's not like he wears a gigantic beret that's got the words "I AM GENERAL DETH - YEAH, THE GUY WHO CAME BACK TO LIFE. I AM A FREAKING BADASS. YES, YOU KNOW YOU WANT ME." printed on it. I know he doesn't wear this beret, because I made him, and I had that beret taken out of the palette.

In other words, you don't know if someone's a badass just by looking at them. You might get some hints - flaming sword, surrounded by swirling motes or covered in green flames, flanked by legions of baatezu - or you might not.

Talwin, if we ever meet, I'll make sure to wear a t-shirt with my life story printed on it for ya

PS - one last thing: if a DM's about, it might be a good idea to NOT simply mindlessly fight stuff. Shit, you can do that the 23 hours a day that a DM is not online. If it were me, I'd take the chance to try and RP something, even if it's simply emoting *looks for enlarged left testicles on the holy warriors*.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:51 pm

Deider wrote:Just want to interject one point in between all the... stuff... in this thread.

Talwin asked how you'd know if an NPC has dev crit. Well, it doesn't go like this:

PC A: "Hey, there's a bunch of Equalizers... wussies, let's take them out."

PC B: "Hells no. Did you see that one's enlarged left testicle - he's got Dev Crit!"

The real question, D-man...

Is the enlarged left testicle useful in crafting?

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:00 pm

due to the last three posts, i think i might reply. Dm spawns a equilizer off behind us which takes out our lowbie in one hit. errr RP? where?

Ok so we defend our fallen comrade, have a great fight, and finally beat him.

Walk to fallen comrade when another equilizer is spawned. it says the words "move". I cast shadow daze to see if i can disable him. i get dev critted, i die. now my friend heals me. I get dev critted again, even though i dont attack. i actually got healed AGAIN which i was then dev critted a third time and get deathplaned.

So i dont give a flying fuck what the hell you think. When you come out with stupid half assed answers from smart mouths like that then i have no respect. i have throughout the thread tried to be diplomatic and reasonable. i let the discussion go on, and have not interupted.

So maybe if i do see you wearing your tshirt then maybe ill turn around and walk away when someone has an attitude like that.

Tharliss · Post by **Tharliss** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:10 pm

*Thinks that maybe it's time to lock this Thread*

Trueguardian · Post by **Trueguardian** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:10 pm

Dm spawns a equilizer off behind us which takes out our lowbie in one hit. errr RP? where?

You got pwned....take a deap breath....relax. It happens to everyone. If a DM spawned it...I am pretty certain he/she had a reason. If not obvious at first, take some time to think about it. As for the RP?.... Instead of this thread, how about an IC thread about the location of this badass...a warning to fellow friends, or a grand story or warning over a ale in game in a tavern?

Am I saying "don't be upset". Hell no...it sucks being DP, there just might be better (=more fun) ways to deal with it.

*shrugs* just my thoughts