40th Level Characters

[Vichan Lyonsen]

In many ways I agree with Nightface...it seems to me that a fair amount of effort has been made in making areas that epics can run around in...thats all very fine and well, they have as much right to fun as anyone else..however..my personal impression...is that too many people are becoming epic too fast...that meaning that they are gaining XP at such a rate that their characters - despite their levels - are non-entities, few have ever heard of them and frankly few will.

I daresay that Nightfaces post referes to these particular players, those that feel that levels are the end-all-be-all dont really add to Avlis in my opinion. As for will there be levels beyond 40.. I certainly hope not, 40 is bad enough as it is...as to who will make it to 40 first...Greens a good bet sure...Ed is in the running I suspect.

My current rate of progress on my epic pc is 1 level per 2-3 months.

I'm a bit slower than that....but then the lions share of my last 7000 xp has come from DM's only.

So I'm an advocate of the 'Slow down and smell the roses" RP style in lieu of the "Kill stuff to get to the next level as fast as possible style" Can both fit in Avlis?...I guess...I would much rather see the former than the latter, even though it seems I see more of the latter than the former these days.

[ReallyStupidGuy]

My vote is on Ed to get to the top first. Go half-orc!

[Kitten]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Go home nightface, you smelly troll.

[Vichan Lyonsen]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

Go home nightface, you smelly troll.

you absolutely do not speak for everyone when you say that.....you dont like the tone of his post - fine - you want to call him to the mat for it - fine - leave out any personal comments however.

[Talwin Hawkins]

yeah that was harsh.

[Marleh]

If there is anyone who knows about having a true hero as a character, its Nightface.

So though you may not like what he wrote, you asked for comments, you got them. If you can't handle the comments, don't stick your hand in the fire.

[Khaelindra]

So I'm an advocate of the 'Slow down and smell the roses" RP style in lieu of the "Kill stuff to get to the next level as fast as possible style" Can both fit in Avlis?...I guess...I would much rather see the former than the latter, even though it seems I see more of the latter than the former these days.

My bolding.

I think it's a very subjective thing, mainly because a power-boasting lvl 25 who isn't known stands out where 10 lvls 3-7 who have been around for a few months don't stand out as much when you view the playerlist or meet them ingame. I.O.W. the few rotten apples are what determine the smell of the whole basket, even though most are fine and juicy.

I can very much sympathise with Nightface's sentiments on powergamers/character-power-hungry characters. I just don't agree with 'punishing' the whole epic playerbase with lack of scripted combative challenge just because of those people, especially since the powerlevellers really won't go to the challenging areas if they can farm xp much faster in areas with CR 4-6 critters who give the same xp but don't put up meaningful resistance to the PG'ers swift vanquishing of thousands of them. A better solution to this would be to have characters receive -NO- xp for killing critters 8 or more CR below their characterlevel like in PnP. It's the 2-5 guaranteed xp from CR 4 up that is the main source of xp for such characters, not the presence of epic areas.

[apandapion]

There was talk on some forum a while back about making an option for 40th level characters to have the option of recreating the character with a special race (for example, a 40th level wizard could choose to become a lich). I'm quite sure this option isn't available (unless it's a super secret), and don't even know if it's being worked on. What would Green Raven become?

It would be interesting if you could contribute XP above and beyond 40th level to a cause, which the DMs recognize in various ways (perhaps a level 40 cleric, for instance, made his deity more powerful).

Or you could continue the level scale on up as it stands - give an extra feat at 50th and 60th and nothing else. *grin*

I have to ask again, why?

Personally, I think all the "epic" areas should be removed. Epics are sad that they can't level? Cry me a river, you should just be happy that you got there.

Now suddenly everybody wants something past 40th? Good god, give me a fekking break. You've already reached a level of power that is supposed to be legendary and awesome, and you're acting like it's just another waypoint to getting more feats and spells.

I'm actually rather dissapointed by some of the implications of statements made in this thread. Passing 20th has been reduced to a path to Epic feats, I guess.

You are familiar with the "4 different drives for gamers argument", right? Some people like to achieve things. I know that here the roleplaying motication is the dominant one and all of the others are second class citizens, but that's no reason to neglect the other drives entirely. One of my suggestions gives the people who go over 40th nothing what-so-ever (other than informing the dms for them to interpret geopolitically), and the other gives you nothing but a feat after 10 long levels (not even hp, or attack bonus, or stat points) Neither of these will shatter a roleplaying nirvana.

I'll skip the "you can go find a MUSH if you want to avoid numbers and levels getting in the way of your RP" part of the post entirely. I never manage to word that kind of thing in a positive way. What I mean is "there are a great many different options under the sun", but everyone always interprets it as "go away", which isn't what I meant to say at all.

[EmeraldSerpent]

A better solution to this would be to have characters receive -NO- xp for killing critters 8 or more CR below their characterlevel like in PnP. It's the 2-5 guaranteed xp from CR 4 up that is the main source of xp for such characters, not the presence of epic areas.

I like this idea very much.

[Grunt]

Sojan,

It's quite possible to not know an epic character. There are enough factors to warrant it:

1. Time Zones. I only run into most of the GMT+ people on weekend mornings, or very early in my weeknight playing times, and by then they're being sleep griefed.

2. Server locations. Not everybody is a worldly (and off-worldly) traveller. Some people only play on a couple of servers at best.

3. Playing time. If you play 5-10 hours a week, and the Epic Stranger plays 10-20 hours per week, they will most likely advance faster if you both play the exact same way. Of course, they will also RP more and be known amongst their core of players... but add the difference of IG time to points 1 and 2...and it's quite easy to have a couple of epics that are "unknown". I've met a lot of characters in my time here, but there are plenty of well-known characters who I have yet to meet because of points 1-3

4. Off-World Heroes. Not as common, and easy to pick out as most make a point of sticking out a bit to let people know they are new to the area. Usually popping in to Avlis for a visit the same way some Avlissians pop into the other worlds.

5. Cliques, Guilds, and Groups. Some characters stick within their own playing circles for most of their playtime. This is good in that they don't "dilute" their RP by spreading it across an entire world, but the downside is that they only become well-known within this travelled circle. But, where most guilds and groups have an abundance of members, and people can join multiple guilds/groups... the circle of friends isn't so small. But, to someone whose playing circle does not touch the other playing circle much... those members are unknown.

6. Playing Styles/Crossing paths. If you're farming and I'm fighting... we don't meet up. If you're talking at the Rock, and I'm spending 40 minutes talking Zach down 10 gold pieces on an item... we don't meet up. We're both playing similar styles, but we're both playing seperately. An event is a good place to see someone... but many of the good ones are insider affairs, so see point 5.

Now, for a solid example, Sojan and Grunt have only run into each other 2-3 times total in game. I play usually 15-20 hours a week or so...give or take. I've been playing since June..about 8 months. We could chalk the lack of meeting up to a combination of points 1-3, along with a bit of point 5 and 6. Should I consider you unknown? Should you consider me unknown? I don't know what guilds you are in, or what groups you run with consistently. However, if I see Sojan, I know who he is because we have met. IC on the message boards, I can also pick up bits and pieces of who is who and what they're doing.

Getting to epic can't be that easy here...even for a true powergamer. They'd have to go offworld or something. I'm lucky if a FEAT event yields me 500 XP for a 4 hour adventure. Usually it's more like 200-300XP. And that's in a good sized group hitting some places I could never solo. I don't know how people are doing it unless they're farming themselves to death, as those quests don't have a "come back next week" or "one and done" like other quests in Mikona and Ferrell.

In the end, I don't care what your level is... You CAN be an epic hero without ever hitting level 20. I have a list of characters in my head that I don't know the levels of, but I consider them heroes (or villains if need be) because of impact on my character.

-Grunt

[Vichan Lyonsen]

I think it's a very subjective thing, mainly because a power-boasting lvl 25 who isn't known stands out where 10 lvls 3-7 who have been around for a few months don't stand out as much when you view the playerlist or meet them ingame. I.O.W. the few rotten apples are what determine the smell of the whole basket, even though most are fine and juicy.

I couldnt agree more...it is subjective, which is why I emphasised seems in my response.

I can very much sympathise with Nightface's sentiments on powergamers/character-power-hungry characters. I just don't agree with 'punishing' the whole epic playerbase with lack of scripted combative challenge just because of those people, especially since the powerlevellers really won't go to the challenging areas if they can farm xp much faster in areas with CR 4-6 critters who give the same xp but don't put up meaningful resistance to the PG'ers swift vanquishing of thousands of them. A better solution to this would be to have characters receive -NO- xp for killing critters 8 or more CR below their characterlevel like in PnP. It's the 2-5 guaranteed xp from CR 4 up that is the main source of xp for such characters, not the presence of epic areas.

I would accept that in a heartbeat....

[Final Shinryuu]

I had always assumed that characters above level 10 or so get most of their exp from crafting or DMs. That's the level when a character does start to notice that they get 0 exp for killing things of little challenge, and I can only assume that it does continue to make a higher level character fight things close to their own power.
Anyways, if you RP and get into an event with a DM, I've found that many DMs give large exp awards at the end of night-long adventures... My biggest cookie to date was a 2000 exp plot cookie, but there have been a few approaching that amount. (also for running plots)
However, even for many everyday normal stuff, you will be given a good amount of exp if a DM is looking for someone to give them a bit of fun Most regular DMed adventures that I get into last in the 2-4 hour range, and end with a DM cookie of 250-500 (Or consist of a number of 50 exp cookies during the event which add up to about this amount)
If you roleplay well and get yourself noticed, leveling comes naturally, without having to go out and seek anything.

[Khaelindra]

I had always assumed that characters above level 10 or so get most of their exp from crafting or DMs. That's the level when a character does start to notice that they get 0 exp for killing things of little challenge, and I can only assume that it does continue to make a higher level character fight things close to their own power.

Well, there's the sore toe. Only CR 3 and less eventually net 1 xp each (never 0 unless you have an xp-penalty), all others (CR 4 and up, could be 3 and up, not really too relevant) always give a minimum of randomized 2-5. In other words: All critters give a minimum of 1 xp, and all critters above CR 3/4 also give a bonus 1d4 xp regardless of character level.

[Nob]

Uh...I have 57 crafting levels.

Does that count? No?

Okay...

[Final Shinryuu]

I had always assumed that characters above level 10 or so get most of their exp from crafting or DMs. That's the level when a character does start to notice that they get 0 exp for killing things of little challenge, and I can only assume that it does continue to make a higher level character fight things close to their own power.

Well, there's the sore toe. Only CR 3 and less eventually net 1 xp each (never 0 unless you have an xp-penalty), all others (CR 4 and up, could be 3 and up, not really too relevant) always give a minimum of randomized 2-5. In other words: All critters give a minimum of 1 xp, and all critters above CR 3/4 also give a bonus 1d4 xp regardless of character level.

In that case, I'm all for making the exp scale down as level continues to go up!

[Serineth Swiftpaw]

I'm against in simply because it will make anyone with a 20% or more penalty well, never be able to get experneice. Simple as that. Well, at least not against monsters anyway. (Everything for Neth seems to be 0 exp now, I can think of few things that give D5, and if that was cut down more, well, no experience, heh.

[Beary666]

So I'm an advocate of the 'Slow down and smell the roses" RP style in lieu of the "Kill stuff to get to the next level as fast as possible style" Can both fit in Avlis?...I guess...I would much rather see the former than the latter, even though it seems I see more of the latter than the former these days.

My bolding.

I think it's a very subjective thing, mainly because a power-boasting lvl 25 who isn't known stands out where 10 lvls 3-7 who have been around for a few months don't stand out as much when you view the playerlist or meet them ingame. I.O.W. the few rotten apples are what determine the smell of the whole basket, even though most are fine and juicy.

I can very much sympathise with Nightface's sentiments on powergamers/character-power-hungry characters. I just don't agree with 'punishing' the whole epic playerbase with lack of scripted combative challenge just because of those people, especially since the powerlevellers really won't go to the challenging areas if they can farm xp much faster in areas with CR 4-6 critters who give the same xp but don't put up meaningful resistance to the PG'ers swift vanquishing of thousands of them. A better solution to this would be to have characters receive -NO- xp for killing critters 8 or more CR below their characterlevel like in PnP. It's the 2-5 guaranteed xp from CR 4 up that is the main source of xp for such characters, not the presence of epic areas.

I could have sworn the team already implemented something like this

I guesss I was wrong

[apandapion]

Occasionally I advocate scrapping entirely the current method of xp and give everyone 50 xp per day the character has existed. You'd hit second level in a less than a month, third level in two months, and fourth level four months, and so forth - regardless of if the player logs in or not. That way, your character can do whatever thinks he thinks suits himself while online, and we can assume that all of the study and advancement is done in the inn rooms, libaries, and sparring halls, between your login sessions.

Nobody ever seriously argues for it, but discussion of it does tend to reveal how focused players can be on the xp treadmill. Even the hardcore roleplayers tend to balk at the proposal that people who log in once a month should be the same level as the people who play 8 hours a day.

[Sojan]

To Grunt...

I fully agree with you...I met your char and I must say I know him...
You know when I said I don't know is that my char hasn't even have heard of them and you are right about those points mentioned since I am playing about 8 to 12 hours a week.

I know some high level char that I don't know the exact levels and others that I know who are quite above 25...but....there was some in the list that I didn't know of at all...maybe they were off-world visitors...I dunno.

I still think you should have a certain reknown as a villain or do-gooder. As you said yourself, you know of them that might not be Epic yet...but you consider them as such....imagine when they will be Epic...many more shall know about them with all the RP they are doing.

And the 0XP thing, well...I agree...since when you go with lower-lvls char, the party CR is balanced and you get them back...so...if you want to visit an easy cave solo...well...you loose your time...but if you want to show a newbie around...then you get some XPs...they could be called "teaching XPs"

[Naieth]

Good post by Grunt

Bad post by Kitten

[apandapion]

And the 0XP thing, well...I agree...since when you go with lower-lvls char, the party CR is balanced and you get them back...so...if you want to visit an easy cave solo...well...you loose your time...but if you want to show a newbie around...then you get some XPs...they could be called "teaching XPs"

I got drug to a certain beetle cave by a bunch of lowish level halflings last night, and it was a blast. I used a lot of healing kits, though.

[Khaelindra]

I'm against in simply because it will make anyone with a 20% or more penalty well, never be able to get experneice. Simple as that. Well, at least not against monsters anyway. (Everything for Neth seems to be 0 exp now, I can think of few things that give D5, and if that was cut down more, well, no experience, heh.

Divinia has an xp-penalty. She's getting older, doesn't learn as fast anymore...
Theoretically it's 20%, but due to her high level and the rounding down rule, it's a penalty of 100% for CR<3 and 28.6% for CR 4-25, averagaing out at 30% or so.

Just out of interest i logged how she got most of her xp since she levelled. She turned lvl 34 in the x-mas holidays and is now at 9K over the threshold. Of those 9K xp, she earned roughly 1800 from monster-xp, 200 from scripted-quest xp and 7000 from DM cookies.

So it's not as simple as that. Without the penalty, it would have been 2500 mosnter xp and 250 quest-xp. Not too much of a difference after all. Should the dif-8 rule be implemented, the 1800 would most likely be 0, again not too much of a difference. Your case would only be valid for those soloing the easy areas. Creatures around your level give fair xp still, and Rp- and event-cookies aren't reduced by the penalty, meaning the only critters you'd get really little xp for are the critters you shouldn't be getting xp from in the first place. See my second-last post in this thread.

The 1d4 xp for each character regardless of number of partymembers or relative level of the monster (3<CR aside) is a bonus brought to you by the Avlis Team. It's not a given right, and it's not even standard Bioware. If the way to stop powerlevelling is to take it away again, it's their prerogative.

[Serineth Swiftpaw]

Again, you're connected, you're in a lot of events. There are lots of us who are in next to nothing, meaning that they would probably never level up. Remove that 7000 from DM events and reassess.

[denor firefly]

*sighs* lvl 22 would also be great

[apandapion]

Again, you're connected, you're in a lot of events. There are lots of us who are in next to nothing, meaning that they would probably never level up. Remove that 7000 from DM events and reassess.

So... connect. I haven't encountered a lot of instances of people trying to keep me out of things. Meet some people. Hook up with some groups.