Spell Duration: Keen Edge

Toman Nouwen · Post by **Toman Nouwen** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:20 pm

Due to the slow leveling on Avlis (which, BTW I absolutely love... Great RP opportunities), I want to be fully informed when choosing spells for my bard. Currently, he's using a katana as his primary melee weapon usually enhanced with Greater Magic Weapon. However, I'm looking to add Keen Edge to that to increase the critical range, but I'm confused as to the actual duration.

The description states, 10 minutes/level.... but is that RL minutes or Game Minutes? Makes a huge difference....

Any input?

----
Caster Level(s): Bard 3, Wizard / Sorcerer 3
Innate Level: 3
School: Transmutation
Descriptor(s): Weapon Enchantment
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Short
Area of Effect / Target: Creature or Slashing Weapon
Duration: 10 Minutes / Level
Additional Counter Spells: Spells
Save: None
Spell Resistance: No

Adds the Keen property to the targeted slashing weapon, increasing its critical threat range.

Krator · Post by **Krator** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:30 pm

It lasts longer than turn/level so I guess 10 RL minutes.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:00 pm

Exactly that, 10 real time minutes per caster level (which is ridiculously long, by the way). Before the 1.64 patch the duration was 2 turns per caster level.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:31 pm

mortzestus wrote:Exactly that, 10 real time minutes per caster level (which is ridiculously long, by the way). Before the 1.64 patch the duration was 2 turns per caster level.

Aah, so that's the change. I remembered when i first took the spell that it ended much to soon to be really useful. Essentially it is now 2.5 hours / level making it the longest duration spell in the game if you reach a two-digit casterlevel, which makes it VERY powerful.

Damn, that free rod really is too good...

Beary666 · Post by **Beary666** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:39 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
mortzestus wrote:Exactly that, 10 real time minutes per caster level (which is ridiculously long, by the way). Before the 1.64 patch the duration was 2 turns per caster level.
Aah, so that's the change. I remembered when i first took the spell that it ended much to soon to be really useful. Essentially it is now 2.5 hours / level making it the longest duration spell in the game if you reach a two-digit casterlevel, which makes it VERY powerful.

Damn, that free rod really is too good...

Quiet you!!! <_< >_>

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:43 pm

The spell itself maybe good, but don't forgot you're a bard. No offence meant, but offence is not generally a bard's forte. So, unless you do a lot of melee (and maybe when your soloing you have to ) then maybe Keen isn't that good a choice. Don't know how many spells a bard knows at that level, but there maybe other spells that are better.

Don't forget all Keen does is improve the chance of a crit, you still have to be able to hit the thing!

Of course, keen cast on a fighter ally who has the strength and attack bonus to make use of it is another thing entirely.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:06 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:The spell itself maybe good, but don't forgot you're a bard. No offence meant, but offence is not generally a bard's forte.

Hah!

EDIT: Now seriously, Dirk is right. If you have troubles hitting certain stuff probably keen edge won't help you that much (things change in a party, etc.). It's a good spell anyway and since there aren't that many "good" level 3 bard spells i'd probably take it (actually, my bard picked it as one of her first spells of that level).

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:09 pm

I think Dirk needs to be reminded a few things about bards...*Cough*

Keen Edge isn't as useful as it is in PnP, where you have the ability to cast it on things like ammunition.

Toman Nouwen · Post by **Toman Nouwen** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:02 am

My character plays more the travelling minstrel and wondering storyteller aspect... He also tends to focus on spells that have the longest bang-for-the-buck, that can also be used to enhance his party members. At that level, there is currently:
- Greater Magic Weapon (now adding +3 to weapons for 9 hours)
- Cure Serious Wounds (not really used, as he normally uses kits)
- Haste (not really used, unless someone besides him needs to get someplace fast... Lorio uses Expedious Retreat)
- Summon Creature III (summons Offie, Lorio's faithful dire creature)

Out of the rest of the spells in Level 3 (http://www.skullport.com/games/nwn/spells.shtml#bard3), there are a couple of other that might work, but there are many bardic devices (harps, horns, chimes, etc...) that offer the same ability

Now that I know the duration of Keen Edge, it makes sense to take it when I level again... I can use it on others quite easily, or on Lorio...

That said, a bard is nothing to scoff about when it comes to a fight... Mind you, Lorio is currently level 9, which means in prep for a battle, this is normal buffing routine:
- Invisiblity (which allows him to buff in peace)
- Greater Magic Weapon blesses his katana for +3,
- Will be adding Keen Edge will give it a extra critical range
- Ghostly Visage (Damage Reduction 5/+1, immunity to Lvl 1 spells)
- Summon Creature III
- Bard song adds quite a bit (+2 to hit, +2 damage, +8 HP, +1 Will/Fort/Reflex to him and everyone in the party)... These get crazy at higher levels
- Curse song (-2 to hit, -2 to damage, -8 HP, -1 to all saves) to all enemies ... These also get nuts in higher levels....

Not a bad set of additions, considering that the bard song/curse song can be used for a total of 13/day and last nearly a turn each time...

I'll agree at lower levels bards can be really wussy.... but once they get up to the 8-16 range, they get to be very cool...

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:09 am

I've seen a few high-level bards in action. Pure bards, too, not even multiclassed. All I have to say is:

.

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:26 am

Nob wrote:Keen Edge isn't as useful as it is in PnP, where you have the ability to cast it on things like ammunition.

I tried to fix this...unfortunately, keen edge can't be applied to anything but melee weapons without 2da changes.

As a note on bards, I noticed the other night that the 3.5 spell list removes buff spells like GMW and keen edge. There are many more enchantment/charm spells though. There's also some pretty nice bard prestige classes. There's one in Frostburn called the Stormsinger. You can use bard song uses to cast weather effects, summon storms and throw thunderbolts. Made an excellent first mate on a pirate ship.

@Toman
I wouldn't base spell picks on duration. You will find it more rewarding in the long run to pick spells based on your character. If keen edge is what he would use because he's a hip, katana-wielding, Elvis-impersonating samurai (what was the name of that movie?) with a guitar for a sword sheath, then that's cool. If you're a wandering minstrel, you might give something like charm monster a shot and make some new friends, or wounding whispers to leave something memorable with music critics. Just some thoughts mind you - there's nothing wrong with taking keen edge.

Doug

Arnimane · Post by **Arnimane** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:51 am

Beary666 wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:
mortzestus wrote:Exactly that, 10 real time minutes per caster level (which is ridiculously long, by the way). Before the 1.64 patch the duration was 2 turns per caster level.
Aah, so that's the change. I remembered when i first took the spell that it ended much to soon to be really useful. Essentially it is now 2.5 hours / level making it the longest duration spell in the game if you reach a two-digit casterlevel, which makes it VERY powerful.

Damn, that free rod really is too good...

Quiet you!!! <_< >_>

*grumbles about fickleness of that very item and goes back to sharpening his diminuitive weapons the old fashion way*

Toman Nouwen · Post by **Toman Nouwen** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:02 am

dougneol: Touche....

You're right... Bad RP on my part....

I could have done some justification routine about Lorio wanting to help out his party with their equipment, or being smart about what spells he has available, but blah, blah blah.... The truth is the player was thinking about what was best for Lorio... not what Lorio would have thought was best.... Oops

RP a character takes practics, and I'm still a bit rusty 'round the edges. Thank you for your kind rebuke towards good RP

KenLie · Post by **KenLie** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:38 am

(Ken) Has keen edge, luvs one...

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:36 am

Nob wrote:I think Dirk needs to be reminded a few things about bards...*Cough*

Oh, I forgot about him

And Hargas too - I sure hope he wasn't listening

Nob wrote:Keen Edge isn't as useful as it is in PnP, where you have the ability to cast it on things like ammunition.

Ammo? Most of it is piercing anyway... apart from throwing axes? Which alas isn't one of the more popular weapon types.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:59 am

Dirk Cutlass wrote:Ammo? Most of it is piercing anyway...

D&D Player's Handbook 3.0 wrote:This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A normal threat range becomes 19?20. A threat range of 19?20 becomes 17?20. A threat range of 18?20 becomes 15?20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons (and it does not stack with itself). If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:07 am

mortzestus wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:Ammo? Most of it is piercing anyway...

D&D Player's Handbook 3.0 wrote:This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A normal threat range becomes 19?20. A threat range of 19?20 becomes 17?20. A threat range of 18?20 becomes 15?20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons (and it does not stack with itself). If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target.

Ah, I see

But that's stupid though. A keen edge is just that an "edge", not a "point". They should have made another spell "Sharp Point", and whilst they were at it something to make blunt weapons ... um ... blunter ? That doesn't sound quite right does it

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:09 am

You know, i agree with you.

hewhorocks · Post by **hewhorocks** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:16 am

I seem to have seen something in the dmg about an ability that does for blunts what keen does for sharps......Forget what its called....bashing maybe?
Seems only fair......

Also found out that in 3.5 keen does not stack with improved crit....pretty sure it does in nwn though

*Looks apologeticly at a long line of weapon-masters*

KenLie · Post by **KenLie** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:48 am

hewhorocks wrote: Also found out that in 3.5 keen does not stack with improved crit....pretty sure it does in nwn though

Yeah, it does in NWN, 100% sure.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:09 pm

In the 3.0 ruleset (and NWN) improved critical and keen edge do stack. A guy with improved critical in longsword and a keen longsword will have a threat range of 15-20.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:55 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:The spell itself maybe good, but don't forgot you're a bard. No offence meant, but offence is not generally a bard's forte. So, unless you do a lot of melee (and maybe when your soloing you have to ) then maybe Keen isn't that good a choice. Don't know how many spells a bard knows at that level, but there maybe other spells that are better.

Don't forget all Keen does is improve the chance of a crit, you still have to be able to hit the thing!

Of course, keen cast on a fighter ally who has the strength and attack bonus to make use of it is another thing entirely.

And if Nob had no made the point about combat bards, think about Kered.

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:00 pm

mortzestus wrote:In the 3.0 ruleset (and NWN) improved critical and keen edge do stack. A guy with improved critical in longsword and a keen longsword will have a threat range of 15-20.

For rapier, scimitar, and one other I can't recall it's 12-20. Tack on dev crit and great cleave, and this is a fighter's best friend.

Alphonse · Post by **Alphonse** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:09 pm

loki70 wrote:
mortzestus wrote:In the 3.0 ruleset (and NWN) improved critical and keen edge do stack. A guy with improved critical in longsword and a keen longsword will have a threat range of 15-20.
For rapier, scimitar, and one other I can't recall it's 12-20. Tack on dev crit and great cleave, and this is a fighter's best friend.

the other is kukri

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:09 pm

Toman Nouwen wrote:dougneol: Touche....

You're right... Bad RP on my part....

I could have done some justification routine about Lorio wanting to help out his party with their equipment, or being smart about what spells he has available, but blah, blah blah.... The truth is the player was thinking about what was best for Lorio... not what Lorio would have thought was best.... Oops

RP a character takes practics, and I'm still a bit rusty 'round the edges. Thank you for your kind rebuke towards good RP

Don't get me wrong...there's nothing wrong with picking the spell. My suggestion was for your long-term enjoyment of the character. I wasn't trying to rebuke you.

My most enjoyable alt is a level one changeling who tries to sell useless things to people by convincing them that they have value.