A question on cleric spells

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:56 am

I've been having tremendous fun with my half-orc shaman (when I first brought him to the Mikona sewers, a couple of fellow adventurers spent some time trying to figure out what class he was. Didn't quite fit the profile for any they knew, but I think they finally decided he was a paladin- a warrior who is spiritual. Interesting guess.)

Anyhow, I was looking through the avlis development forum, and noticed a fascinating new rule that makes a lot of sense to me.

A cleric can not cast spells of level 3 or higher without the name of an Avlissian diety in their character's diety field. Is this essentially correct?

Now, this makes excellent sense. Clerical powers come from the divine beings with whom they commune- without a patron, their powers are limited indeed. And there are only so many gods to go around.

Now, since I was not aware of this when I built him, though I can't remember if I left the deity field blank or wrote "Raven Spirit," it comes to the same end. He can't do much with the cleric side of his role.

Now, I understand that it is possible for a character to convert to a god in game, and this will correct the situation. However, this character is in an unusual situation- he already has a religion. From what he has learned of the "city gods" IC, he feels comfortable associating with Dagath's devotees. Their philosophy feels compatible to his tribal culture and shamanistic beliefs. However, being of like mind is a far cry from actually joining their religion.

As I see it, there are three options for him. Whatever direction he grows I am hanging on to him, I rather like the fellow.

First, he can join Dagath's church but consider himself a like minded associate, rather than disciple. This, to me, feels OOC and like an abuse of the system- joining a church only for metagaming considerations, because he surely would not join on his own. I do not consider this an option.

Second, he can go as far as he can with the cleric levels, and then represent future growth as a shaman with sorcerer levels. The spirits teaching him to unlock his own powers, and so forth.

Third, perhaps if I do a write-up on his tribe and religion and submit it as a Tyedu clan, as I see others have done, then perhaps a DM can make sure his diety is listed as Raven Spirit, or perhaps there is a way to do it myself. (Assuming the clan description is accepted, of course) I was planning to submit something like this anyhow.

Anyhow, I would prefer the third option. Where do I send information on a proposed Tyedu clan? It looks like the prior ones were sent to Orleron, but he certainly seems to have his hands full lately.

Is it likely they would approve a new clan?

Seems like there is not much rush here, since my shaman is multiclassed rather thinly. It will be a while before access to third level spells is much of an issue.

Thanks!
Ankh

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:07 am

Thing is, I'm not sure if Tyedu nature spirits can actually grant Divine magic. More likely the shamans would just be sorcerors who believe their magic is granted from the Nature Spirits.

I'm not on the team, though, so you'd need an expert to answer that.

Thing is, (and the reason I post) is if the Nature Spirits CAN actually grant spells... why not just make a catch-all "Nature Spirit" entry for the Deity field to cover any sort of Tyeduan divine caster?

Vichan Lyonsen · Post by **Vichan Lyonsen** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:32 am

The greater majority of the tyeduan spirits are in fact descendants of the Mikonators...that Mikon brought there during a long forgotten war between the gods...

These humans encountered the offspring of the Mikonators and the spirits, and they were awed by them. Many of these offspring are still worshipped as gods by the humans even to this day. The other gods of the world are largely forgotten there, for they never took interest in that land. Why should the people there give them anything at all? By the same token, the spirits adopted the humans, and over another long period they too interbred with the inhabitants, producing the Sprit-kin of today.

I think since Mikon will take any alignment for followers (though you will have to be Mikons exact alignment if you are a cleric) you could easily make the argument that Mikon would be a good choice.....

The alignment is an issue of course...

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:30 am

That is a good point, Vichan- though as I have so far concieved them, the Raven clan arrived later. They are a predatory orc tribe, and would not share ancestry with the Mikonators except through infusions from abducted Tyedu women (hence the half-orc ancestry of the shaman in question)

All of this, of course, assuming that such a story is accepted.

This is essentially what I have in mind. They worship a spirit they call the Raven, because it communicates with them through ravens. For this clan, the raven is seen as a messenger and escort between the living world and the death planes. Thus the shaman not only is the tribe's connection to the Raven spirit, but to their ancestors, with whom Raven allows limited communication. Occasionally the Raven allows the ancestor spirits of the tribe to return to aid a shaman (via the death domain's shadow summoning.)

The collective strength of Raven and the ancestors still does not measure up to much beside the greater power of other gods- I do not intend to take any cleric levels beyond fourth or fifth level.

This is the rationale, by the way, for his ability to call on tribal spirits so far from Tyedu. He is bonded to a raven, the tribal totem and the means of communicating with Raven, making geography unimportant.

If the team does not feel that this works with Avlis, then I will make necessary adjustments, of course. Stopping at cleric level 2 would be rather a lot more limited than I had in mind, but I can work with it if need be.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:08 am

just wanna jump in with a tiny little comment. I can't see why you can't have dagath (or whatever deity you eventually choose) in your deity field, but refer to him in-game as your Raven Spirit. Your cleric will derive his powers from Dagath, but his clan refers to him and only know him as the Raven Spirit. Unless Dagath and the other Avlissisn deities are anal about that kinda thing and will only answer to people who use their "proper" name.

Obviously i'm not in the team so i dunno who this idea will swing

GreyLynx · Post by **GreyLynx** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:14 am

Pulled this quote from Orleron in thread viewtopic.php?t=14316. You might find it useful, although if you want an idea to be looked at, I don't know if it's best to e-mail it to the team's address rather than Orleron's.

Worshipping a Tyedu spirit-god:

If your character is from Tyedu, you may worship a Tyedu spirit-god. There are thousands of these gods, and so you can generally make one up to follow. Guidlines are that it must be some sort of nature god, although it can also cover some other aspect of life if you want it to. So you can have a god of war and mountains, for instance. The god can also not be more than a lesser god, and most likely it will be of demigod or hero status. (See the deification information in the threads on this forum.)

When you make the god, you should send me a blurb on what the name is and what they are about and what tribe you are from. I can add it to this thread if it gets approved by me.

Another rule about these gods is that they will not be inclined to have temples and shrines outside of Tyedu. So it's probably not a good idea to bug me about getting a temple for your spirit-god in Mikona or Elysia. When we get a Tyedu server going, we can talk about it then. Tyedu gods are generally not worshipped outisde of your tribe and certainly not outside your nation. It would take a whole huge amount of time and evolution to make a Tyedu god into an accepted deity among the other Avlissian gods. It's a lot like the amount of work it took to make a small pagan tribal deity named El into the major god of three world religions who continue their domination to this very day: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In otherwords, it would take lifetimes, so don't inquire about it.

One last rule. You can't bring in a deity that already exists someplace else. This is an opportunity for you to create Avlis deities from scratch, NOT to pilfer a forgotten realms deity or absorb a celtic deity.

Vichan Lyonsen · Post by **Vichan Lyonsen** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:18 am

Ankh Seeker wrote:If the team does not feel that this works with Avlis, then I will make necessary adjustments, of course. Stopping at cleric level 2 would be rather a lot more limited than I had in mind, but I can work with it if need be.

I'm not sure why cleric level 2 is your stopping point, its cleric spells higher than level three spells...you dont get level 4 spells until 5th level, so you could go as far as 4th level Cleric with no impediment at all...and of course you can progress in cleric and gain more spells for those three levels, so while you will not gain spells above 3rd level spells, you will gain in the number of those spells that can be cast....

For that matter, if you are a shaman, and your intent isnt to have spells that high, you could also limit yourself with the Wisdom score by having it at 13 or 14 which has the same effect in so far as the maximum level of spell cast.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:32 am

I really don't want level 2 to be the terminus, just saying that if that proved necessary I would not throw a temper tantrum or anything.

The way I read the rule sounded to me like the third level was cut off.

I do not know enough about Dagath yet to know if he could fit the role of the Raven spirit to this tribe. Perhaps their spirit would be subservient to Dagath.. making it workable for him to join. hmm. I really don't know.

A level 3 cut off does not seem so bad. I had hoped to make it higher, but it would still grant enough cleric style power to suit my conception.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:38 am

One quick other question- does this cut off include spells that are treated as higher level due to metamagic? For example, extended darkfire, treated as level 4. Would this be blocked?

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:41 am

Ankh Seeker wrote:One quick other question- does this cut off include spells that are treated as higher level due to metamagic? For example, extended darkfire, treated as level 4. Would this be blocked?

I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes," since the game engine would recognize it as 4th or 5th level.

Also, you'd be getting normal spell progression for a cleric until your cleric level hit 6. After that, you'd stop getting spells of higher than 3rd level (6th is the last level where you can only cast up to third level spells).

EDIT: Vichan, is it higher than third level spells, or third level and higher spells? I thought it was higher than third, but if fourth is the last level of normal spell progression, then that'd be third and higher. Only you say higher than third in your post. So I'm confused, now.

Vichan Lyonsen · Post by **Vichan Lyonsen** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:48 am

Keflex wrote:
Ankh Seeker wrote:One quick other question- does this cut off include spells that are treated as higher level due to metamagic? For example, extended darkfire, treated as level 4. Would this be blocked?
I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes," since the game engine would recognize it as 4th or 5th level.

Also, you'd be getting normal spell progression for a cleric until your cleric level hit 6. After that, you'd stop getting spells of higher than 3rd level (6th is the last level where you can only cast up to third level spells).

EDIT: Vichan, is it higher than third level spells, or third level and higher spells? I thought it was higher than third, but if fourth is the last level of normal spell progression, then that'd be third and higher. Only you say higher than third in your post. So I'm confused, now.

Well my understanding is that a person who has no Avlis deity on their character sheet will be able to cast 1st, 2nd...and 3rd level spells only....I see my error now I misread the columns in the table on page 181 of the NwN manual. At 7th level a cleric gains their 1st...... 4th level spell..so Keflex is right... up to 6th level cleric you are unimpeded....

Yellow · Post by **Yellow** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:49 am

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:Well my understanding is that a person who has no Avlis deity on their character sheet will be able to cast 1st, 2nd...and 3rd level spells only....I see my error now I misread the columns in the table on page 181 of the NwN manual. At 7th level a cleric gains their 1st...... 4th level spell..so Keflex is right... up to 6th level cleric you are unimpeded....

Not quite. I had a problem with a missing deity entry in the database. This caused my lvl 5 cleric to be unable to cast his lvl 3 spells untill it was fixed.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:05 am

Yellow wrote:
Vichan Lyonsen wrote:Well my understanding is that a person who has no Avlis deity on their character sheet will be able to cast 1st, 2nd...and 3rd level spells only....I see my error now I misread the columns in the table on page 181 of the NwN manual. At 7th level a cleric gains their 1st...... 4th level spell..so Keflex is right... up to 6th level cleric you are unimpeded....
Not quite. I had a problem with a missing deity entry in the database. This caused my lvl 5 cleric to be unable to cast his lvl 3 spells untill it was fixed.

I've heard of database problems causing level one spells to be uncastable, so that doesn't really surprise me.

Yellow · Post by **Yellow** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:17 am

dougnoel wrote:Spells Granted by Deities
When casting divine spells on Avlis, you must have a valid Avlis deity in your deity field to cast spells of 3rd level and above.

Notes:
- Currently this is only implemented for clerics.

Changes as of 8/29/04:
- Spells cast from items do not need to make this check.
- Deities with apostraphes in their name no longer cause problems.

viewtopic.php?t=36658

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:00 am

Keflex wrote:
Ankh Seeker wrote:One quick other question- does this cut off include spells that are treated as higher level due to metamagic? For example, extended darkfire, treated as level 4. Would this be blocked?
I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes," since the game engine would recognize it as 4th or 5th level.

I don't know how the deity thing is coded in Avlis but in NWN when a caster has spell slots of a certain level but he can't cast spells of that level, he always can use said slots with metamagic. A level 1 cleric with a ring of holiness could use the level 2 bonus slot with a extended spell, even.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:10 am

GreyLynx wrote:Pulled this quote from Orleron in thread viewtopic.php?t=14316. You might find it useful, although if you want an idea to be looked at, I don't know if it's best to e-mail it to the team's address rather than Orleron's.

Worshipping a Tyedu spirit-god:

If your character is from Tyedu, you may worship a Tyedu spirit-god. There are thousands of these gods, and so you can generally make one up to follow. Guidlines are that it must be some sort of nature god, although it can also cover some other aspect of life if you want it to. So you can have a god of war and mountains, for instance. The god can also not be more than a lesser god, and most likely it will be of demigod or hero status. (See the deification information in the threads on this forum.)

When you make the god, you should send me a blurb on what the name is and what they are about and what tribe you are from. I can add it to this thread if it gets approved by me.

Another rule about these gods is that they will not be inclined to have temples and shrines outside of Tyedu. So it's probably not a good idea to bug me about getting a temple for your spirit-god in Mikona or Elysia. When we get a Tyedu server going, we can talk about it then. Tyedu gods are generally not worshipped outisde of your tribe and certainly not outside your nation. It would take a whole huge amount of time and evolution to make a Tyedu god into an accepted deity among the other Avlissian gods. It's a lot like the amount of work it took to make a small pagan tribal deity named El into the major god of three world religions who continue their domination to this very day: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In otherwords, it would take lifetimes, so don't inquire about it.

One last rule. You can't bring in a deity that already exists someplace else. This is an opportunity for you to create Avlis deities from scratch, NOT to pilfer a forgotten realms deity or absorb a celtic deity.

My guess would be that this statement would have been made before Doungal implemented the Deity field thing for casting 3rd level or higher spells. I think this maybe needs an Ask the Team for a definitive response about how to handle spirit-worship in light of the current magic system.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:43 pm

Those two statements do seem to clash a bit, unless a Tyedu worshipper was never intended to gain advanced powers.

I will put both of those statements side by side in an "Ask the Team" post, and make sure this is not something to slip through the cracks.

GreyLynx · Post by **GreyLynx** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:58 pm

I don't think they necessarily clash. I think that with the new code that's been implimented, part of the acceptance for a new Tyedu-god would be its inclusion in the database as a valid Avlissian deity.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:03 pm

I sure hope it's possible to edit the Deity field after the fact, then, because I just checked the local copy of my shaman and the deity field is blank. Argh!

GreyLynx · Post by **GreyLynx** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:04 pm

You can edit the field in-game either by being converted by a priest of the appropriate faith (automatically changes the deity field for you) or asking a DM to manually alter it for you.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:13 pm

GreyLynx wrote:You can edit the field in-game either by being converted by a priest of the appropriate faith (automatically changes the deity field for you) or asking a DM to manually alter it for you.

Yes, but the problem raised by Ankh Seeker is an interesting one:

If Tydue spirit worshippers are intended to have spells >= 3rd level then what Deity should they put in the field for this to work?

And secondly, is this just OOC so the script will work, or does it have a real IC reason, e.g. all spirit gods are really something to do with Dagath/Mikon/whatever?

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:17 pm

mortzestus wrote:
Keflex wrote:
Ankh Seeker wrote:One quick other question- does this cut off include spells that are treated as higher level due to metamagic? For example, extended darkfire, treated as level 4. Would this be blocked?
I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes," since the game engine would recognize it as 4th or 5th level.
I don't know how the deity thing is coded in Avlis but in NWN when a caster has spell slots of a certain level but he can't cast spells of that level, he always can use said slots with metamagic. A level 1 cleric with a ring of holiness could use the level 2 bonus slot with a extended spell, even.

The difference is whether NWN blocks SPELLS of a certain level or denies SPELLSLOTS of a certain level.

I can tell you it is the second, because my character had only 18 wisdom up to level 19 druid, and she did not receive lvl 9 slots to fill them with lower level spells. It wasn't just the level 9 spells she couldn't select due to low wisdom, she totally missed the spellslots so she also could not put an extended lvl 8 spell or empowered lvl 7 spell in them.

The fact that the ring gives you the extra slot is because the slot comes from the item itself. The limitation however is on the inate character spells, not on items, and the character itself will not have spellslots of level 3 or above available.

GreyLynx · Post by **GreyLynx** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:36 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:
GreyLynx wrote:You can edit the field in-game either by being converted by a priest of the appropriate faith (automatically changes the deity field for you) or asking a DM to manually alter it for you.
Yes, but the problem raised by Ankh Seeker is an interesting one:

If Tydue spirit worshippers are intended to have spells >= 3rd level then what Deity should they put in the field for this to work?

I'm not a team member, but I would think that the proper way for a spirit worshipper to gain spells normally would be to submit to the team a proposal for one of these gods. Once the proposal is accepted (and the god is added to the list of deities), create a character with that god's name in the deity field. For his already-made character, I guess he would have to ask for a conversion (assuming that his proposal is accepted).

And secondly, is this just OOC so the script will work, or does it have a real IC reason, e.g. all spirit gods are really something to do with Dagath/Mikon/whatever?

As for IC reason, the Tyedu spirit gods are really gods, not imaginary beings or aspects of Mikon/Dagath/etc.,. Orl indicated they can be lesser gods or demigods, indicating they ought to be able to grant spells to their priests. I am guessing the bottleneck on this process will be the team having free time to look at any proposal for a new god and then adding it to the list of deities. That's gotta take a chunk of time.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:43 pm

I dropped a note in the Ask the Team forum. They simply asked me to do the sort of write-up I described, and if it is workable, they will add it. There is no attempt to limit the powers of spirit gods, it seems, but to make sure that any new deities that are introduced are integrated, so that others may make use of the material as well.

Fair enough.

So, I'm off to commit all the frothing ideas in my head to the more permanant form of pixels. And do my homework, so I don't flunk college. Yeah.