Attack bonus vs damage bonus

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:51 am

Soo... what's the secret doctrine behind attack and damage bonuses?

I have seen these listed on various weapons, and I do not fully understand how they work, or which might be preferable.

I get damage bonus, fine. One extra damage of bludgeoning, or fire damage, or beaver tooth damage, whatever.

But what is the attack bonus? Does this translate into more damage, or a better chance of hitting, or what?

And if you must choose a weapon with a damage bonus or an attack bonus, which is preferable?

Thanks for answering all my questions!

MondoPotato · Post by **MondoPotato** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:55 am

attack bonus increases your attack by whatever value it says.
So when you make a roll vs. the oppenent in an attack, you have a better chance of hitting it, thus harming it.

The damage bonus translates into extra damange after the hit.

And Enhancement bonus does both attack and damage bonus.

As far as which one is better is more or less a personal preference, would you rather hit more often, or do more damage when you do hit?

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:01 am

Attack bonus is also the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:03 am

answers in 30 seconds or less. This forum is great.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:28 am

Midknight wrote:Attack bonus is also the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance.

Incorrect. Enhancement bonus is the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance. Someone didn't play a lot of PnP.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:51 am

Wrong, Keflex, my champion of charisma.

In NWN it is attack bonus. This is why launchers pierce DR instead of ammunition.

Moredo · Post by **Moredo** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:55 am

if a monk has +5 gloves it bypasses the stoneskin effect.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:12 am

Gairus wrote:Wrong, Keflex, my champion of charisma.

In NWN it is attack bonus. This is why launchers pierce DR instead of ammunition.

Are you shitting me? That's some bullshit.

/me immediately ditches +1 weapons in favor of 4A weapons

mashimaro_ · Post by **mashimaro_** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:34 am

Keflex wrote:
Midknight wrote:Attack bonus is also the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance.
Incorrect. Enhancement bonus is the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance. Someone didn't play a lot of PnP.

Is there a law that states anyone who wants to play NWN MUST have played PnP?

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:10 am

mashimaro_ wrote:
Keflex wrote:
Midknight wrote:Attack bonus is also the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance.
Incorrect. Enhancement bonus is the one counted when bypassing a creature's damage resistance. Someone didn't play a lot of PnP.
Is there a law that states anyone who wants to play NWN MUST have played PnP?

Obviously not, since I was wrong, and they changed it in NWN.

In all seriousness, no, but it can help a lot.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:09 am

Just for the record, I'm aware it's supposed to be the enhancement bonus in PnP, but I know otherwise in NWN, because I've found that it's the attack bonus of the bow that counts for piercing, and this extends onward to weapons. Simply a limitation of the engine.

Albion · Post by **Albion** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:43 am

Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:57 am

Albion wrote:Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.

The second one, after a wiz/sorcerer of level 9 or more casts Greater Magic Weapon on it.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:14 am

Albion wrote:Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.

They are both good weapons.

Sometimes you need a +3 to bypass damage reduction, it also gives you better chance to hit. But, the 1d6 flame +1 sword will do higher damage, and slightly more average damage ... as long as they are not immune of have resistance to fire of course

If you had both of these weapons, I would keep both in my pack and change as the need suited. They are both fine weapons, rare and extremely valuable.

CPU · Post by **CPU** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:18 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Albion wrote:Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.
They are both good weapons.

Sometimes you need a +3 to bypass damage reduction, it also gives you better chance to hit. But, the 1d6 flame +1 sword will do higher damage, and slightly more average damage ... as long as they are not immune of have resistance to fire of course

If you had both of these weapons, I would keep both in my pack and change as the need suited. They are both fine weapons, rare and extremely valuable.

No.... you are absolutely wrong. They both suck. Both very common and found everywhere on Avlis... Sell them to me for 25 gold each and I'll give you the BEST in game weapon! The ~FABLED~ Goblinstar!

...I didn't think you'd believe me...

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:35 pm

Albion wrote:Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.

Do the math on the damage. Max damage on the flaming sword is 8 +1 +1 +6 = 16. That's discounting your STR bonus, so your results may vary.
The +3 sword does a maximum 8+3 = 11. Less damage with the +3.

However,
Lets say you find a mage with stoneskin on. Stoneskin has a damage reduction of +3/10. That means you need a +3 weapon to pierce the damage resistance. In this case, flaming sword doesn't have a +3 enchantment (or attack bonus, as it is in NWN). So the flaming sword would do: 16 - 10 = 6 pts of damage only.
Whereas the +3 sword pierces the DR and deals the maximum 11 pts of damage.

In summary - neither is better, they're good for different situations. The flaming sword deals out more damage to non DR enemies, while the +3 sword is useful for piercing damage resistance.

My advice: Hold on to them both, and switch when you need to.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:58 pm

Midknight wrote:
Albion wrote:Ok now i am confused if i have a sword which is + 3 enhancement And another sword which does 1D6 fire damage +1 piercing and +1 slashing damage.

Which is the best sword.
Do the math on the damage. Max damage on the flaming sword is 8 +1 +1 +6 = 16. That's discounting your STR bonus, so your results may vary.
The +3 sword does a maximum 8+3 = 11. Less damage with the +3.

Actually, you're probably better off looking at average damage than max damage.

For instance, if you look at a mundane greatsword and a mundane greataxe (2d6 damage and 1d12 damage, respectively), they look equivalent if you just look at their max damage (and the greataxe is actually better by 150% if you assume a crit). However, if you look at their average damage, the greatsword is definitely better (average damage on a greataxe, ignoring crits, is 6.5, average damage on a greatsword is 7).

In this case, assuming they're longswords, you've got an average damage of 7.5 for the +3 sword, and an average damage of 9 for the other one.

While this makes absolutely no difference, this is what people like me think about in their spare time, and seize on any opportunity to share with the ignorant masses, who have infinitely better, more constructive ways to spend their time.

Carry on.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:24 pm

About this example, the firey sword deals more damage per hit than the longsword +3 (on average) but whenever you are fighting something with good AC the average damage output per round would be lower because you'd be hitting less often. It's not only DR what counts, it's also the AC of your foe. So, adding to Keflex's point: average damage and average chances to hit, that's what you have to take into account to see when one weapon is better than the other.

If you want to munchkinize it a bit, you can analize all this stuff in full detail here.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:30 pm

mortzestus wrote:About this example, the firey sword deals more damage per hit than the longsword +3 (on average) but whenever you are fighting something with good AC the average damage output per round would be lower because you'd be hitting less often. It's not only DR what counts, it's also the AC of your foe. So, adding to Keflex's point: average damage and average chances to hit, that's what you have to take into account to see when one weapon is better than the other.

If you want to munchkinize it a bit, you can analize all this stuff in full detail here.

You also have to take into account the AC and DR of what you're fighting. If you're hitting on a 2, no matter what, and there's no DR, you're going to be better off with the fire weapon than the +3. If you're only hitting on a 20 with the fire weapon, but hitting on a 18 with the other, then it's going to be much better, unless whatever your hitting has slashing/piercing resist +5/20, and no fire resist; in that case, even though you only hit on a 20, the fire weapon is better, since you'll actually do damage when you hit, as opposed to nothing.

In conclusion, it's complicated.

Velvet Embrace · Post by **Velvet Embrace** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:43 pm

The answer is easy and the same OOC as it is IC.

If it bleeds when you hit it, it's a good weapon. If it laughs and rips your face off, its a bad weapon.

Nuff said.

[/b]

Psyco · Post by **Psyco** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:45 pm

Velvet Embrace wrote:If it bleeds when you hit it, it's a good weapon. If it laughs and rips your face off, its a bad weapon.

Thats one of the best summations of the subject i have ever seen. Its so accurate and yet still so concise

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:14 am

One other related question then... what exactly is the equation used for taking a swing at someone.

This is what I understand so far, but I think there are some gaps.

Roll 1d20, add dex bonus. If it exceeds the opponent's AC, it hits. Roll damage, add strength bonus to damage. Barring other complications, like damage resistance, is this essentially correct?

How does the base attack bonus factor in?

If I understand, then, the weapon finesse feat puts the same dex bonus that is used to hit and also applies it to damage, because you know just where to hit with your light weapon.

If I had a +3 dexterity bonus, would weapon finesse mean that all light weapons do +3 damage?

Or am I completely on the wrong track?

Psyco · Post by **Psyco** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:26 am

Close, but not quite on the right track.

You attack bonus is your BaB + weapon bonus + str bnus + other (things like weapon focus)

The exceptions to this are ranged weapons which use dex instead of str, and weapon finesse, which allows you to use dex (if its higher than str) rather than str for small weapons, and the rapier.

Damage done is always str, never dex. The exception being ranged weapons, which have no damage bonus unless they have the mighty property and then its the str modifier that matters to a max of the value of the mighty.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:49 am

To repeat what Psyco said, it's attack bonus + d20

What is the attack bonus? It's:

Class Base Attack Bonus
+Strength bonus (Dex bonus, if using ranged, or have Wepon Finesse feat)
+Weapon Bonus (if any)
+Feat Bonuses (ex.+1 on a longsword with Weapon Focus:longsword)
+Other Bonuses (ex. flanking opponent gives +2)

This result of the attack bonus +d20 is compared to your opponents AC. If higher, you hit. If lower, you miss.

So an example...
Bob the fighter has 16 strength and gets a +3 strength bonus. He's wielding a +1 longsword, and has weapon focus:longsword. He strikes at a knocked down goblin with AC 14. He rolls a 10 on the d20.

The calculation is as follows:
10 (d20 roll)
+ 3 (Strength bonus)
+ 1 (weapon enhancement bonus)
+ 1 (weapon focus in longsword)
= 15

15 vs. AC 14 is higher, so Bob the fighter smacks that goblin. Now, for damage:
The +1 longsword does D8 damage +1. Add in Bob's Strength bonus of 3 for D8 + 4. Bob rolls a 5 for damage.

5 (roll) + 1 (enchantment) + 3 (strength bonus) = 9

So Bob smacks the goblin for 9 points of damage.

Ankh Seeker · Post by **Ankh Seeker** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:10 am

So weapon finesse helps to hit more often, but not at all to do more damage.

If someone were fighting with two weapons, then, would weapon finesse with a pair of light weapons tend to do more damage than the usual medium/light pair, since they land more blows, all else being equal?

I guess that would depend entirely on what the weapons were. Say a 1d8 and 1d6, vs two 1d6s... I should just work this out on paper or something. *sigh* I'm just trying to plan wise decisions for a character who dies too much, but my lack of familiarity with the underlying mechanics makes that tricky. Thanks for the help.

Flanking is hitting from the side of the opponent, yes? Are there other tactical factors like this that could be easily applied? (like trying to attack from the side, etc)