Can you dual wield rapiers?

Jund · Post by **Jund** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:51 pm

I heard that you can (some man in a pub told me or i read it on a website or summit), but i did a search and Jordicus says in one post that you cant!

Is it possible to dual wield em without penalty? I am thinking of making a rapier using, ranger dude.

If not ill probably try a dual wield shortsword dude, i imagine it would be fun to have weapon master bonuses on both your weapons one day especially if they were rapiers, i like rapiers, they are the weapon of choice for the coniseur.

I may be getting confused with the way you can dual wield a rapier and a small weapon without penalty i guess?

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:57 pm

As far as I know, it's not possible to dual wield any sort of weapon without at least a -2/-2 penalty. Rapiers could be dual wielded by any medium-sized or larger creature, but the best you could do in terms of a penalty is -4/-4 (with Ambidexterity and Two Weapon fighting), because rapiers are not "light" weapons. Rapiers work with the Weapon Finesse feat, but do not count as light for dual-wielding.

Here, read this here: http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwintern ... ghting.php

It explains everything better than I did.

Manuel the White · Post by **Manuel the White** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:07 pm

I have a character on Hala who dual wields rapiers.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:08 pm

small character such as halflings and gnomes cannot dual weild rapiers. regular sized creatures such as humans & elves can.

VETT SCALES L7 · Post by **VETT SCALES L7** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:12 pm

You can dual wield rapiers, just not without a penalty. A rapier counts as a light weapon but only if equipped as the primary weapon, not the 2ndary. The 2ndary must be a small weapon or you take a further penalty.

But for IC RP purposes...2 rapiers just looks great.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:17 pm

I have to say the one character that I know that dual wields rapiers looks pretty amazing doing so. I know there is a penalty but do not know what it is. Perhaps I will try to equip in game and see what it comes out to or perhaps we can get someone whom does it to fess up.

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:21 pm

Rapier dual-wielder here. As others have said before, you can dual-wield them. Rapiers are considered medium weapons, so you will get at the very best only a -4/-4 penalty to your attacks (if you have both Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity). That's a big penalty and sometimes switching to one rapier just to hit more often is a good tactic. Rapiers however unlike other medium weapons can be used with Weapon Finesse.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:24 pm

Dual Wielding penalties, left of the "/" indicates primary hand, right of the "/" indicates off hand:

Standard, for two medium-sized weapons: -6/-10
Ambidexterity feat only, two medium-sized weapons: -6/-6
Two Weapon Fighting feat only, two medium-sized weapons: -4/-8
Ambidexterity and TWF, two medium-sized weapons: -4/-4 (this is the best you could do with dual rapiers)

Standard, with offhand weapon light: -4/-8
Ambidexterity feat only, offhand weapon light: -4/-4
Two Weapon fighting feat only, offhand weapon light: -2/-6
Ambidexterity and TWF, offhand weapon light: -2/-2

Kroax · Post by **Kroax** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:34 pm

VETT SCALES L7 wrote:... A rapier counts as a light weapon but only if equipped as the primary weapon, not the 2ndary...

Uhm... What? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, you can use it with weapon finesse, but I'm quite sure it's considered a one handed weapon (or medium or whatever you want to call it). Ok, I must confess, I'm not quite sure on how NWN manages disarm, but if it's like in the PnP then having a light weapon gives penalty, but I don't think rapier does. There's other situations where the size of the weapon makes a difference (can't remember any in NWN right now though).

But maybe I'm just being nit picky...

VETT SCALES L7 wrote:But for IC RP purposes...2 rapiers just looks great.

Ditto.

But then I'm also a sucker for two-weapon fighting. I was so happy when they changed that in D&D 3.5 so you only had to take one feat to learn that.

Too bad it don't work the same way in NWN though.

Lilith · Post by **Lilith** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:39 pm

The best I can get my skills down to is -3/-3 thats with:

Improved 2 weapon fighting
Weapon focus Rapier
Ambidex
Weapon Finese.

I am also specialised in Rapier and have improved crit with Rapier so I've maxed everything out to dual weld these weapons, I love the look so I'm happy to take the minus hits

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:57 pm

Eh, best you can get is -4/-4 since the bonus from weapon focus is added if you single wield.

Dual-wielding rapiers is nice, but it's not particularly worth it unless you have a great deal of specialization and focus on the weapon.

For example
Ayren dual wields rapiers most of the time because:
A- He has weapon focus(+1), superior weapon focus(+1), epic weapon focus(+2) which basically removes the penalty from his off hand.

B-(this is more important) he does 1d6 + 7 + enhancement bonus x 3 with his rapier as opposed to 1d4 + 1 + enhancement bonus x2 with a dagger.

However, if you're going to be using things like sneak attacks and favored enemy bonuses, you're better off with dual shortswords.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:59 pm

Kroax wrote:
VETT SCALES L7 wrote:... A rapier counts as a light weapon but only if equipped as the primary weapon, not the 2ndary...
Uhm... What? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, you can use it with weapon finesse, but I'm quite sure it's considered a one handed weapon (or medium or whatever you want to call it). Ok, I must confess, I'm not quite sure on how NWN manages disarm, but if it's like in the PnP then having a light weapon gives penalty, but I don't think rapier does. There's other situations where the size of the weapon makes a difference (can't remember any in NWN right now though).

But maybe I'm just being nit picky...

Rapier is a medium sized weapon which is considered a light weapon for the purposes of the weapon finesse feat, just that.

Kroax · Post by **Kroax** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:01 pm

mortzestus wrote:
Kroax wrote:
VETT SCALES L7 wrote:... A rapier counts as a light weapon but only if equipped as the primary weapon, not the 2ndary...
Uhm... What? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, you can use it with weapon finesse, but I'm quite sure it's considered a one handed weapon (or medium or whatever you want to call it). Ok, I must confess, I'm not quite sure on how NWN manages disarm, but if it's like in the PnP then having a light weapon gives penalty, but I don't think rapier does. There's other situations where the size of the weapon makes a difference (can't remember any in NWN right now though).

But maybe I'm just being nit picky...
Rapier is a medium sized weapon which is considered a light weapon for the purposes of the weapon finesse feat, just that.

That's what I meant. I guess I was being nit picky...

Ooh, Kroax has learnt a new word! -- Kroax second personality

GreyLynx · Post by **GreyLynx** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:03 pm

If you are a large creature, are the penalties for different sized weapons increased by one grade?

For example, if a med creature has all the appropriate feats, they can dual-wield two short swords at -2/-2.

Could a large creatures with the same feats dual-wield two longswords at -2/-2?

Manuel the White · Post by **Manuel the White** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:24 pm

Not sure on that. But, I have seen wemics wield two handed weapons with one hand. Pretty cool to wield a greataxe and still use a tower shield!!

Earl Hatfield · Post by **Earl Hatfield** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:42 pm

GreyLynx wrote:If you are a large creature, are the penalties for different sized weapons increased by one grade?

For example, if a med creature has all the appropriate feats, they can dual-wield two short swords at -2/-2.

Could a large creatures with the same feats dual-wield two longswords at -2/-2?

Yes. Imagine a half-orge weapon master wielding two scimitars or two katanas

Sinbadsam · Post by **Sinbadsam** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:04 pm

I have a wemic ranger that dual weilds two longswords. Even as a ranger gets a -2/-2 penalty. But she is only a level 1 wemic as she gets more feats it will get better.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:08 pm

Nathan weilds a Greatsword and a Tower Shield at the same time

Kroax · Post by **Kroax** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:18 pm

GreyLynx wrote:If you are a large creature, are the penalties for different sized weapons increased by one grade?

For example, if a med creature has all the appropriate feats, they can dual-wield two short swords at -2/-2.

Could a large creatures with the same feats dual-wield two longswords at -2/-2?

Yes, although I'm not sure if it works in NWN and CoPaP custom races, but it looks like it does.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:29 pm

Though ive played nwn and all that for ages and ages I know nothing about the dice thingy behind it all, penalties gains etc.

I like weilding dual daggers, is it better to weild two short swords instead? do you get more damage etc? I am a rogue who will eventually takes levels in SD and already has ambidex and will take two weapon fighting.

Sinbadsam · Post by **Sinbadsam** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:55 am

My question I have is this

Wemic is a large creature, a greataxe is a medium weapon for a wemic and a large weapon for those medium size creatures.

A wemic using a longsword which is a small weapon to a wemic, but on a medium sized being it is medium.

A wemic dual weilding two longswords which to her are small weapons, being a ranger has a penalty of -2/-2.

But would a medium sized ranger dual weilding two shortswords or daggers get a penalty of -2/-2?

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:56 am

Sinbadsam wrote:But would a medium sized ranger dual weilding two shortswords or daggers get a penalty of -2/-2?

Yes.

JadeNight · Post by **JadeNight** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:53 am

Forget rapiers.. go with kurkis. Damage may be slight, but the threat range on the criticals can't be beat.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:48 am

JadeNight wrote:Forget rapiers.. go with kurkis. Damage may be slight, but the threat range on the criticals can't be beat.

Yeah, same as the threat range on rapiers, only it's 1d4 damage instead of 1d6.

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:10 am

Keflex wrote:
JadeNight wrote:Forget rapiers.. go with kurkis. Damage may be slight, but the threat range on the criticals can't be beat.
Yeah, same as the threat range on rapiers, only it's 1d4 damage instead of 1d6.

I'll take kukris any day. I'm no wemic, so the extra bit of to hit bonus helps me get away with things like power attack (and soon the improved version) + still hit quite well. An extra +5 or +10 damage per hit adds up really quick when you have 6 attacks per round.

*edit* Add in the criticals (12-20s with keen weapons + improved crit) and you get some fun happening.