Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:04 pm

Jordicus wrote:how would you know to make a Spot check unless your opponent has made a Hide roll?

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a ?5 penalty. It?s practically impossible (?20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

As I understand the check should happen the moment you try to Hide.

Comick · Post by **Comick** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:08 pm

Aerill wrote:
Jordicus wrote:how would you know to make a Spot check unless your opponent has made a Hide roll?

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a ?5 penalty. It?s practically impossible (?20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
As I understand the check should happen the moment you try to Hide.

Yep.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:19 pm

Perhaps there should be a SD forum where we can discuss RP techniques on playing the class.

I sometimes wish people could be constructive in their critisism a bit more. We already know that HIPS is not going away/get changed. I personally can not change the AI. But I can change the RP. No body is around when I am fighting gaints by myself and fade out of veiw and type for no reason than my own satisfaction "*tumbles under legs and fades from veiw*". I then reposition myself and continue on. I learned long time ago not to do use this as while in group unless an emergency. Personally I use the shadows quite a bit and it is such a intrigul part of the character that it will sometimes happen in front of others. I try not to do it standing next to them.

If you think we are doing such a bad job at RPing being shadow dancers than give a suggestion on how you 'think' it should be done. I guess I find it frustrating that people have such anomousity about my character descisions while they do things on their own that I would not. I just ignore it try to RP the best I can, which sometimes is minimal, and move on.

It also seems that no one has brought up the crazy things you can do with tumble in PnP that makes HIPS possible to some extent and why you are required ranks in it. In PnP you can use bluff to hide from the person you are fighting and with the right feats can even get an attack the same round leaving them flat footed and that is without the HIPS feat.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:03 pm

Comick wrote:
Aerill wrote:
Jordicus wrote:how would you know to make a Spot check unless your opponent has made a Hide roll?

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a ?5 penalty. It?s practically impossible (?20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
As I understand the check should happen the moment you try to Hide.
Yep.

It does. Folks who could see you before you go hidden (b/c their spot is high enough) continue to see you after you hit the HiPS button.

We did a lot more testing of the class last night on the Avlis code. I think the results will surprise a lot of people, and hopefully help debunk a lot of the theories that are out about why the class is "broken" (i.e., timestop, daze, automatic hide round, flatfooted, etc.). In fact, the results showed that SD's and Rogues actually lose sneak attacks that they would normally get in PNP due to a NWN engine limitation -- worse for rogues. I won't ask folks to take my word for it anymore, but will just wait for the team's analysis.

Thanks,

Bear

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:15 pm

OK. I spent several hours testing this last night with TEK and Bear. All 3 of us have a LOT of experience with HiPS - comparable individually to any single other person's experience therewith, I am quite confident. All 3 of us have tested this before, but we wanted to lay these endless debates to rest, so agreed to one more round of thorough testing.

FACTS ABOUT HIPS:

* When you HiPS, you do NOT automatically succeed. You must beat the opponent's Spot AND Listen skills, or you will not disappear. WORKING AS INTENDED.

* When you are hidden and then attack, your foe loses their dex mod, and you get a +2 to attack. This is NOT being flatfooted. This works the same whether the hidden character uses normal stealth, HiPS, or invisibility. Foes do not recover their Dex mod until they act - so if you stand there picking your nose and don't react, a rogue can keep taking Sneak Attacks against you. As soon as you move, or cast a spell, or engage in combat, or anything at all, you regain your Dex mod. WORKING AS INTENDED.

* You can stealth once per round. You cannot stealth, attack, stealth in one round. You CAN attack then stealth each round, exactly as in PnP. WORKING AS INTENDED.

* If you have a queue of actions, and one of them is cancelled, all subsequent actions in the queue are cancelled. Spells or attacks that directly target a foe that uses HiPS (or invisibility, or Greater Sanctuary)will be cancelled once you can no longer target (exactly as in PnP). NWN does not allow targeting areas with targeted spells, nor attacking without a target (unlike PnP). This is a game engine design choice by Bioware, and not something we could change if we wanted to. WORKING AS INTENDED.

* When under the effects of Time Stop, Hold Person, Flesh to Stone, or Paralyze, you cannot HiPS. If you can move, you can use HiPS, and if you cannot move, you cannot use HiPS. WORKING AS INTENDED.

That is all. Move along please.

- Aloro

Comick · Post by **Comick** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:25 pm

Thanks guys !

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 pm

Thanks Aloro,

Forgot the one piece where rogues and SD'cr actually get less sneak attacks, because NWN is not turned based.

NWN

1. Hidden character sneak attacks -- 1 strike (2 if you have rapid shot or dual wield).
2. Opponent moves, or attacks, or does anything regaining dex mod.
3. Hidden character makes remaining attacks without sneak.

PnP

1. Hidden Character's turn -- sneak attack 1 strike, 2 strikes, 3 strikes (4 with dual wield or rapid shot).
2. Opponent's turn -- can move / attack if still alive.

Due to the real-time engine limitations in NWN, rogues lose all but their furst "flurry" of sneak attacks, whereas they would normally enjoy an entire round of them on paper. Not a complaint, just noticing that things were "balanced" against rogues as well.

Thanks

Bear

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:47 pm

Aloro wrote:* If you have a queue of actions, and one of them is cancelled, all subsequent actions in the queue are cancelled. Spells or attacks that directly target a foe that uses HiPS will be cancelled once you can no longer target (exactly as in PnP). NWN does not allow targeting areas with targeted spells, nor attacking without a target (unlike PnP). This is a game engine design choice by Bioware, and not something we could change if we wanted to. WORKING AS INTENDED.

Forgive me for being dense, but I don't understand the bolded part. I assume you mean targetted as opposed to area of effect? I can target the ground with a fireball or negative energy burst, but not with a magic missile.

Did you test AoE spells cast at the ground while someone uses HiPS? I don't see why that action would be cancelled.

Thanks

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:55 pm

Dralix wrote:
Aloro wrote:* If you have a queue of actions, and one of them is cancelled, all subsequent actions in the queue are cancelled. Spells or attacks that directly target a foe that uses HiPS will be cancelled once you can no longer target (exactly as in PnP). NWN does not allow targeting areas with targeted spells, nor attacking without a target (unlike PnP). This is a game engine design choice by Bioware, and not something we could change if we wanted to. WORKING AS INTENDED.
Forgive me for being dense, but I don't understand the bolded part. I assume you mean targetted as opposed to area of effect? I can target the ground with a fireball or negative energy burst, but not with a magic missile.

Did you test AoE spells cast at the ground while someone uses HiPS? I don't see why that action would be cancelled.

Thanks

with those AoE spells, they will effect the hiding PC as long as they are in the area of effect. However, you have to have targetted the ground near your opponent instead of targetting your oppenent directly. In PnP, the spell would still fire at the location of the intended target, regardless if the target is still there or not. Bioware coded the targetting code so that if you target the opponent directly and then they disappear from sight, via Hide, Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary, the targetting gets cancelled. However if you had aimed at teh ground to begin with, then the spell would still have fired.

Other spells needs to be specifically targetted at an opponent like Magic Missle or they don't work period. but that is the same as PnP

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:58 pm

Dralix wrote:
Aloro wrote:* If you have a queue of actions, and one of them is cancelled, all subsequent actions in the queue are cancelled. Spells or attacks that directly target a foe that uses HiPS will be cancelled once you can no longer target (exactly as in PnP). NWN does not allow targeting areas with targeted spells, nor attacking without a target (unlike PnP). This is a game engine design choice by Bioware, and not something we could change if we wanted to. WORKING AS INTENDED.
Forgive me for being dense, but I don't understand the bolded part. I assume you mean targetted as opposed to area of effect? I can target the ground with a fireball or negative energy burst, but not with a magic missile.

Did you test AoE spells cast at the ground while someone uses HiPS? I don't see why that action would be cancelled.

Thanks

The NWN engine doesn't allow you to target an area with a targeted spell. Some spells can be area effect OR targeted (e.g. fireball). I can see how that would be confusing.

If you cast a targeted spell (e.g. flame arrow) you MUST see your target in NWN. In PnP D&D, you could fire a targeted spell at a space on a map, and if there were a hidden person there, you'd have a chance to hit them. Likewise, if you're in melee and your foe disappears, in PnP you'd probably take another swing at the same place, to see if they're still there. In NWN this is not possible. Targeted spells, as well as attacks, require a target in NWN.

- Aloro

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:15 am

Aloro wrote: * When you HiPS, you do NOT automatically succeed. You must beat the opponent's Spot AND Listen skills, or you will not disappear. WORKING AS INTENDED.

If person A is attacking shadowdancer B, say with a bow or dagger, and person A has a higher Spot than the Hide skill of shadowdancer B by at least 20 (ie it should be impossible for shadowdancer B to ever HiPS from person A), is the attack action of person A cancelled when shadowdancer B attempts to HiPS? Was that tested, and what did you find?

Aloro wrote: * When under the effects of Time Stop, Hold Person, Flesh to Stone, or Paralyze, you cannot HiPS. If you can move, you can use HiPS, and if you cannot move, you cannot use HiPS. WORKING AS INTENDED.

How about Knockdown? Because I've certainly had shadowdancer NPCs HiPS whilst knocked down.. if PCs can't do it, then the AI can do things with HiPS that PCs cannot do, and it does do them. Were you testing against NPCs with HiPS or just PCs?

(( Edited: Thanks Keflex, missed that ))

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:55 am

kombinat wrote:If person A is attacking shadowdancer B, say with a bow or dagger, and person A has a higher Spot than the Hide skill of shadowdancer B (ie it should be impossible for shadowdancer B to ever HiPS from person A), is the attack action of person A cancelled when shadowdancer B attempts to HiPS? Was that tested, and what did you find?

Your spot needs to be at least 20 higher than the dancer's hide in order for it to be *impossible* for them to ever HiPS. Otherwise, there'll be a chance of it (though, the shadowdancer's hide needs to be at least 20 higher than your spot in order for it to be impossible for you to see him HiPSing, as well).

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:30 am

kombinat wrote: If person A is attacking shadowdancer B, say with a bow or dagger, and person A has a higher Spot than the Hide skill of shadowdancer B by at least 20 (ie it should be impossible for shadowdancer B to ever HiPS from person A), is the attack action of person A cancelled when shadowdancer B attempts to HiPS? Was that tested, and what did you find?

I guess that is the broken part?

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:17 am

Keflex wrote:
kombinat wrote:If person A is attacking shadowdancer B, say with a bow or dagger, and person A has a higher Spot than the Hide skill of shadowdancer B (ie it should be impossible for shadowdancer B to ever HiPS from person A), is the attack action of person A cancelled when shadowdancer B attempts to HiPS? Was that tested, and what did you find?
Your spot needs to be at least 20 higher than the dancer's hide in order for it to be *impossible* for them to ever HiPS. Otherwise, there'll be a chance of it (though, the shadowdancer's hide needs to be at least 20 higher than your spot in order for it to be impossible for you to see him HiPSing, as well).

Do things like this apply to the listen skill as well?

If I want to have some chance to know where stealthy or HiPS-using characters are, must I put skills points into Spot, or will Listen work just as well?

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:21 am

kombinat wrote:
kombinat wrote: If person A is attacking shadowdancer B, say with a bow or dagger, and person A has a higher Spot than the Hide skill of shadowdancer B by at least 20 (ie it should be impossible for shadowdancer B to ever HiPS from person A), is the attack action of person A cancelled when shadowdancer B attempts to HiPS? Was that tested, and what did you find?
I guess that is the broken part?

To be honest, tests were inconclusive on this one aspect. The tests showed pretty clearly that a PC could not HiPS while knocked down.

However, in some instances built up actions were cancelled even where you could see the person, and in some instances actions were not cancelled when you could see the person. For example, the an elf mage we tested would have his magic missles interrupted (even though he could see the SD'r) while all the drow we tested and Val would continue their attack. The fact that you could have two different results may explain why folks are having different experiences with the ability.

We were planning on doiong some more testing on this one piece to see if we could isolate the different results, but there are an amazing number of variables floating out there (ranks of spot, keen sense, dark vision, etc. etc.). It makes for a lot of work.

szabot wrote: If I want to have some chance to know where stealthy or HiPS-using characters are, must I put skills points into Spot, or will Listen work just as well?

Yes, listen works well. In fact, I think it's better than spot. With listen you can hear invisible enemies, and there isn't as much MS boosting equipment out there, so you'll have a better chance of detecting the masses with even a small number of skill points invested.

Thanks Bear

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:39 am

Bear wrote:
szabot wrote: If I want to have some chance to know where stealthy or HiPS-using characters are, must I put skills points into Spot, or will Listen work just as well?
Yes, listen works well. In fact, I think it's better than spot. With listen you can hear invisible enemies, and there isn't as much MS boosting equipment out there, so you'll have a better chance of detecting the masses with even a small number of skill points invested.

Just chiming in to mention that even though move silently boosting items are rarer than hide ones, listen gear is virtually non-existant. I have found just one item with bonuses to listen for sale in Avlis merchants.

Also, listen works better only if the sneaker isn't standing still. That's the trade off.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:25 pm

mortzestus wrote: Just chiming in to mention that even though move silently boosting items are rarer than hide ones, listen gear is virtually non-existant. I have found just one item with bonuses to listen for sale in Avlis merchants.

I would love to see more listen items as well. I once found a helm that I thought gave +2 to listen and was completely overjoyed. Turns out it was actually -2 to listen. I was just so excited to see a listen item in the game that I read it wrong.

Bear

modigliani · Post by **modigliani** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:42 pm

Could test this out in-game, but I'm at work, so....

Can you make someone the direct target of a spell such as Magic Missle if you can hear but not see them? If yes, then is there a chance that you can lose the targeting if they stand still?

Thanks.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:48 pm

modigliani wrote:Could test this out in-game, but I'm at work, so....

Can you make someone the direct target of a spell such as Magic Missle if you can hear but not see them? If yes, then is there a chance that you can lose the targeting if they stand still?

Thanks.

should be able to, since the engine creates a "ghost" image of the person to represent that you have "heard" them.

modigliani · Post by **modigliani** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:10 pm

Jordicus wrote:
modigliani wrote:Could test this out in-game, but I'm at work, so....

Can you make someone the direct target of a spell such as Magic Missle if you can hear but not see them? If yes, then is there a chance that you can lose the targeting if they stand still?

Thanks.
should be able to, since the engine creates a "ghost" image of the person to represent that you have "heard" them.

Then Amplify it is at next level up, and fuck jooz Flashdancers!

Sinbadsam · Post by **Sinbadsam** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:30 pm

Hey Mad,

Also do not forget you clairvoyanc/clairaudiance spell it also improves you chances of hearing something.

modigliani · Post by **modigliani** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:43 pm

Sinbadsam wrote:Hey Mad,

Also do not forget you clairvoyanc/clairaudiance spell it also improves you chances of hearing something.

Cheers to that, Sinbad. Too bad I can't use them in my office to minimize my Avlis window before my boss sneaks up on me.

*curses about Shadowdancer bosses*

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:59 pm

Will a character using HiPS become visible if injured by caltrops? Can caltrops injure someone hidden in such a way?

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:13 pm

Paul wrote:Will a character using HiPS become visible if injured by caltrops? Can caltrops injure someone hidden in such a way?

caltrops will injure the person and you will receive a message in your system message box. If the person is hiden from you the message simply says "You damage Someone"

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:49 pm

Sinbadsam wrote:Hey Mad,

Also do not forget you clairvoyanc/clairaudiance spell it also improves you chances of hearing something.

Both amplify and clairvoyance are round/level spells.

I suggested this in the past, but in light of how much more difficult it is to stay combat viable while being better able to detect something, can one or both of these spells have a few changes made like duration?

The World of Avlis

Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

Has your stealth based PC any shadowdancer levels?