Proposal to encourage RP: a new way to award XP

[Dralix]

Why do you think people go to Hala/Rockhome, but not Taris'na'dur?

Because they told where the portal was fro Hala, and Rockhome is by now common knowledge, while Taris'na'dur seems to be shrouded in secrecy with only EDGE and a few others in the know.

Isn't that the portal that resides in the public dwelling of a certain group of characters of similar class and *cough* color? The one that their leader posted about in the tavern?

[Vergilius]

First and foremost, nothing in my original post says that XP and RP are mutually exclusive, so it's not "one of the tenants[sic] to this system." All I claim is that there is the possibility of tension between them.

Please read point the first and point the second. The way you organize your thoughts is indicative of dichotomous thinking.

Second, nothing in what I propose is about punishing PG'ing. All it is is about helping people choose to do what they want to do by lessening the extent to which XP is a factor in their decision.

Noble goal, I just disagree with whether it is neccesary. Yes, your example makes sense to me, its what Dieder said and its what I said earlier, though you said it more picturescuely. Unfortunately, for all the exquisiteness of the picture, the entire post failed to address my chief criticims: Powergaming is self-defeating and there is no need to add a bunch of code no matter how complex or simple to control it.

[Vrak]

I just join Avlis, and to me this is possibly the best world out there.

I also love to rp, but it just happens my char is a warrior and want to be a great one at that. So now you might think i am running around killing for exp, but how am i going to play my char if by not hunting monsters (thats what he does). And currently you get more exp harvesting whead, wich i find a alittle strange.

So i dont think the solution would be to remove combat exp, but i am all for giving good roleplayers a way to get exp without hunting

[Kreetogg]

This is too big and messy for me to propery reply so:

XP || RP
I don't see splitting the two. When either of my characters gets XP, its beacsue of RP reasons. Either they are bored and want to work out (so they farm) or they get thier asses kicked in a fight, and decide the need better training or target practice. The two don't have to be seperate.

I say (unofficialy, as I'm not a DM) if people just want to camp and kill all day and night, let them. So long as it doesn't negitivly effect anyone else. It its a problem, the DMs will handle it. If not, then they miss out on the best parts of Avlis.

No XP for fights
I think XP for killing things (and crafting) is a GOOD thing. It helps fuel the development of the characters. My rogue got wiser to the ways of the world, and started becoming intrested in a certian god. So when he leveled due to XP, he got a point in wisdom. He got the XP from practice, traveling, research (Well, fighting along the way). He developed skills through use, and the spending of XP (levelling up) reflected that.

If you only get XP based on time you spend sitting in-game, why use NWN? Just hit an IRC chat room. Hell, there are tons of RP chat rooms out there. Go join a MUSH. I know a guy who runs one, if your intrested. Hell, he can even host for you.

Griping
I'm a team member now. Not even one who holds multple positions. I'm on no type of schedule to do the work I'm doing and latlet I've been pressed for time. (Right after I got the job, too). I haven't given much time over the past two weeks to Avlis at all, playing OR building. The DMs have it worse than me, I think. So if they don't immediatly reward everything you do, or don't imediatly punish someone screwing up, cut them some slack. The do a damn good job, and its the best they can under the circumstances. If there is a problem, report it to a DM in game so they can witness it.

Encourageing RP
This is already done. DM's hand out cookies. There is a cheap XP reward. More importantly, the most fun stuff is interactive DM run stuff. And your not participating unless your going to RP. So, thats a pretty big incentive to RP. I've played MMORPGs for quite awhile. Most people will eventually get bored just killing things and will seek out life eventually.

[Vrak]

Your a wise man Kreetogg, I could not have put it better

[4x4_Ender]

The Abyss time system exists only to control powergamers. It's a tool nothing more. It's working rather fine for us. It only controls the rate at which XP can be obtained through killing stuff.

Yeah, thats great and all, but the point is (and Verg has done a very good job of making this clear already) you dont NEED to implement a system specifically to control powergamers because it is a self defeating problem, and one that in general doesnt interfear with other peoples fun.

One drawback of the system proposed is that it makes leveling up the same for all character concepts. Do we really want this? If you want to have a character that focuses on crafting or trading then you should be doing it for the sake of crafting or trading and the fun it brings along with the RP. You should be content to see the warrior oriented character move past you in levels and realistically they should, combat improvement is part of what they are. Uniform XP dispursion would ruin these differences. Just because power gamers exist doesn't mean that all characters should level up at the same rate. People claim they want this to be an RP world while at the same time acting like levels are all that matters.

This is a very good point. I dont think we need to make Avlis a fucking communist world just because of some whinners.

[Vrak]

So all it really comes down to is the Rp pepole being envious of the pepole who fight more and lvl faster???

I am beging to think there is such a think as PowerRoleplaying

[Titanium Dragon]

Why do you think people go to Hala/Rockhome, but not Taris'na'dur?

Because they told where the portal was fro Hala, and Rockhome is by now common knowledge, while Taris'na'dur seems to be shrouded in secrecy with only EDGE and a few others in the know.

Isn't that the portal that resides in the public dwelling of a certain group of characters of similar class and *cough* color? The one that their leader posted about in the tavern?

Yep. Sh'lieulias found the portal, then called out said group in a tavern post, and they acknowledged the existance and location of the portal. He WAS a bastard about it. I did that at least partially because Taris'na'dur was lacking in traffic, and I thought heck, maybe people don't know where it is.

Things haven't changed. And how often do EDGE, the warrior maidens, or any other group go over there? I have been there two or three times, which is probably more than 99% of the player base.

One drawback of the system proposed is that it makes leveling up the same for all character concepts. Do we really want this? If you want to have a character that focuses on crafting or trading then you should be doing it for the sake of crafting or trading and the fun it brings along with the RP. You should be content to see the warrior oriented character move past you in levels and realistically they should, combat improvement is part of what they are. Uniform XP dispursion would ruin these differences. Just because power gamers exist doesn't mean that all characters should level up at the same rate. People claim they want this to be an RP world while at the same time acting like levels are all that matters.

It is an RP world, but it is also a CvC world, which means that the relative power of characters is very important. Why should a warrior progress in levels by killing goblins a few times a month when a wizard could easily spend all their time in study and gain magical knowledge far faster that way? Why does killing stuff give xp, and not, say, reading a book? Any system made is going to be unrealistic. The point is, if you want to encourage something, you make it more valuable to do it.

This is a very good point. I dont thing we need to make Avlis a fucking communist world just because of some whinners.

Avlis isn't a job you know.

[Kreetogg]

So all it really comes down to is the Rp pepole being envious of the pepole who fight more and lvl faster???

On some level, I think so.

[Titanium Dragon]

So all it really comes down to is the Rp pepole being envious of the pepole who fight more and lvl faster???

On some level, I think so.

Its not enviousness. If this was a non-CvC world, I wouldn't give two hoots whether someone PGed all day and night. It is though, and thus there is some degree of IC realism and OOC balance which needs to be taken into account.

[JadeNight]

All hail the wise Kreetog. I couldn't have said it better.

[Penumbra]

Seems to me you have a choice. You can play it like D&D, or you can play it like a chat room. No matter which you prefer to play, I'll see you in game. GAME ON!

[Flakey]

So all it really comes down to is the Rp pepole being envious of the pepole who fight more and lvl faster???

On some level, I think so.

Its the only thing I can think of, for some peoples complaints. Who cares about what other people are doing, if they want to powergame let them. If they want to stand in one spot and talk to people thats fine.

People have accused Nob of powerlevelling, when if you look at the time hes spends ingame, and use the Avlis average xp gains he should be about 5 to 10 levels higher than he is, if you used that average.

*sighs* perhaps people find it enjoyable to try to keep track of other players, then whine about what they are doing, if it doesnt match what they demand the game should be about.

PLAY THE GAME, AND ENJOY YOURSELVES. DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME COMPARING YOURSELF TO X, Y, AND Z.

[Flakey]

Its not enviousness. If this was a non-CvC world, I wouldn't give two hoots whether someone PGed all day and night. It is though, and thus there is some degree of IC realism and OOC balance which needs to be taken into account.

A world where CvC is possible, yes. That it happens all the time you are completely wrong.

In the 1,000's of hours I have played this game I can count physical CvC confrontations on 2 hands. Most CvC is roleplaying, using intelligence and common sence to put one over on your opponent. It very rarely leads to actual fighting. Your level does not mean a damm thing most of the time in these situations.

Look at Janur. I consider him perhaps one of the top 3 most powerfulest players in Avlis, and hes level 8.

[kokobil]

I have seen the Abyss404 system. It is ......well........diferent. I give you an example. At the beggining it encourages RP. But after a while it made me personaly get a bit pissed off. Like a HAD to RP. I was OBLIGED to do so , so that when i go kill thing i get more XP. Look deep in it. Players would just "fuck around" so that time passes so that they can go KILL THINGS with greater benefit = PG !!!

What you see usually on the server is players go solo mostly (i find that strange but i don't know really why happens) kill things then when they see the XP droping they all go and sit around a fire. Sometimes they do talk but others they don't. They just stand around the fire emoting from time to time so that the server doesn't boot them and say NOTHING . There are days that interesting things happen by DM's and create more RP subjects for the players. But when this is not happening you get a feeling of depression like you are in an asylum or something. But this is not so bad for the world because Abyss404 is supposed to be like that!

Still this system made me feel restricted and obliged . Like when you get some time of from RL and you would like to gather a group of people and go explore the desert for example well you won't find so easily. Because that day people may have seen their XP droping so they decided to just sit immobile around a fire and fuck around pretending they are socialising or are intereteed on what the others say when deep inside they count the seconds passing on line. This gave me a depressing feeling. Like : even in a game we were OBLIGED to hold a kind of specific attitude.

Abyss404 is a desert mostly. There are swarmers(they look like penguins with a barkskin effect on them, they are greatly programised as AI i must say, anyway) and some other types of monsters but most people just spend hours on line PRETENDING they RP so that when the amount of time passes they go to the near swarmer hole to gain XP and this attitude to me is still PG! I mean in the nearby swarmer area you will see all levels from 13 to 1 (13 is the highest lvl i have seen on). Why everybody goes there? Well because it is NEAR! Gives about the same XP as if killing something far more distand and difficult but since the area has continious spawns it is the same.

So after the swarmer killing stops all gather back around the fire. And since they don't go to explore much they have not so many interesting (perhaps to me only) topics to discuss. DM's are doing good job there they try to create things but that is not enough to break the routine. Stand around for hours, fucking around or pretend RP then all of a sudden my arse is acheing from siting and go solo kill swarmers to get XP!

When I am on Avlis I feel thit FREEDOM! That everything is possible! That yes i can go hack and slash but can also craft or just fuck around or talk with people without feeling oblidged to do so. I have enough obligations in my RL. And you know the funny thing? I have spend much more pleasant long time pure talking sessions here on Avlis. Many days i actually have gained just 30 xp and that was by cookies. I don't know if is personal thing. I enjoy RP on Avlis because is MY CHOICE! I like getting cookies . I don't think cookies should be raised. I don't RP for the cookies. I RP because I LIKE IT ! But yes i like getting these small cookies from time to time. Is like a friendly DM slap on my back . Like : "good RP friend" . I wouldn't care if is only 5 XP . It just makes me feel great. Strange I have heard this too by people who claim to be serious RPers. The point is not in the amount of the cookie but in the cookie itself as an action. I prefer to get 10 cookies of 10 XP a day for my various RP actions than of 1 of 1000 XP .

If you are all so crazy about socialising join an IRC channel and maybe talk for the real problems. this is a fantasy world and as such it must not obstacling action. Today we go for bugbears and tomorrow for spiders and the day next for vampires and we still RP while fighting. But then the next day we just sit and talk for the adventures we had there around a table. And the other day we craft and talk. And then we speaking about that secret plan we got in order to.........

The keyword is FREEDOM. Let people enjoy the game in FREEDOM. And you see people most likely will do the right thing. For the rest there are the DM's and well the other players as well that will keep them away.

What is PG anyway? The Gaming of Power. Power can be achieved by having high levels but on a RP world like Avlis Power can as well achived by good RPing. Janur is indeed 6 lvl but has a hell of a power within his grasp so actually Janur is a PG !

Why people craving for levels that much. Well i believe they like the character development. In a low magic world like Avlis the challenge is great indeed. Some people just can't pretend to be powerful without actually being powerful. Lets face it . People are joining the game full of dreams they hope out of vanity perhaps that their single presence might actually turn the tables on Avlis. But to be able to turn the tables some feel they need the actuall strength to turn them. Not that is needed for certain and Janur has proved it but not anyone is like him. I remeber a sad example i had long ago. I was with another RPer on Avlis that now seems he is not playing any more. There was a certain problem and for RP reasons his presence was important and his RP ability was great. HE was in a role that he had to show authorative. Well, the other players present were over 10 levels higher than him. Well, they simply ignored him. He was keeping on saying them that the order of Dagath claims that the undead crypts should be left in peace but he had not the lvl power to enforce it . The others just went on and into the crypts. I was impartial in this but i respected his "order" . He send me a tell in the end saying me. Well you know what? Sometimes you just have to be high level to do certain things here

Lets say there is a follower of Maleki that is lvl 1 and go around shouting how great Maleki is in the face of Kharak Hammerstar ! Won't he seem ridiculus? Now lets pretend this one is Amonien . Not so ridiculuc any more right?
Of course Amonien is not just levels. But on a CvC stuation that is what the newbie gets. That though like: I can't no matter how good RPer i am to ever turn these tables being lvl 1 against a lvl 30.
Would a lvl 1 character claiming he is going to gather an army and take over mikona would seem ridiculus to you? Probably.
Now lets pretend that is Damar and Amonien and Kharak that claim to be doing that. Not so ridiculus any more right?

Others see the game as strategic sessions :How can be a group composed by X , Y , Z characters can overcome the difficulties of a tough lair of certain monsters. and thi sgives much fun to many players. The group tacticks the right balance the ideal formation or battleplan. We shouldn't neglect this too.

Anyway this took much more space than i was aiming at the beggining but that were my 2 coins.

[Titanium Dragon]

I have seen the Abyss404 system. It is ......well........diferent. I give you an example. At the beggining it encourages RP. But after a while it made me personaly get a bit pissed off. Like a HAD to RP. I was OBLIGED to do so , so that when i go kill thing i get more XP. Look deep in it. Players would just "fuck around" so that time passes so that they can go KILL THINGS with greater benefit = PG !!!

Well, I had a simple solution to that.

I just didn't care. I went from as low as 33% xp at one point to 175% xp, which is where my characters both ended up most of the time. Why? Because that is my playstyle. I didn't care if I was getting 33% xp; in fact, I viewed it as a good thing, as otherwise I'd have gotten too much xp too fast. I also didn't care that I was getting 175% xp. Why should I?

I RPed because I like RPing. If you don't like RPing, why would you WANT to play on a server like Avlis, Abyss 404, or the like? Why are you even WATCHING your xp gauge that carefully?

When I played on Abyss 404, I didn't care, and the people I played with didn't care. Maybe the people there now DO care, but really... why? I'd rather have fun RPing and wandering around with people than just sit around a campfire for no reason. Why CARE about your xp to that point? If people act like that, then don't play with them - find a group of people who don't care about it obsessively.

The point is to have fun. If you do something that is NOT fun to maximize gain in the game... then why are you doing it?

[stoertebeker]

Altough that guy leveling to 19 within three weeks kinda freaked me out, I dont think we need this discussion. The xp system works well, DMs are doing a great job - same for the whole team.
Its tiring and alarming at the same time to read through 20 pages of 'who is rping whos not', 'do i get too much xp for killing monsters?', 'look at me! Im around for ten years and still level one!!', 'the old times were the golden age' bla bla bla ...

Now, what CAN be done is for the XP cookies given out for hours spent roelplaying to be increaced. Lets face it, one 30XP cookie for 2 hours of time playing is next ot nothing. Not that the XP is why we are doing it, but it would be a nicer reward and solve this whole XP vs. RP problem stated here.....

Indeed. 30 xp as a RP cookie is so very little. If you know psychology, if people come to associate RPing with large xp cookies, people will do it.

It happened to me more than once that I gained some thousand xp hacking and slashing, stumbled into a DM event afterwards, died several times, lost several thousand xp but gained 200 or 400 through DM-cookies.
I wasnt disappointed in the end because the cookies meant more to me than the xp gained while soloing a random dungeon.
Maybe I dont know much about psychology but obviously mine works slightly different.

I for one know why Im playing here and one reason would be that there isnt any mechanism that forces me to play a certain style.

[Jermulore]

how about if the players would be able top give other players xp like once per day?
and the sum would increase from the players level
(of course two friends could easily cheat in this one as well)

[Khaelindra]

how about if the players would be able top give other players xp like once per day?
and the sum would increase from the players level
(of course two friends could easily cheat in this one as well)

That's already being done on a monthly basis...


portal.php?getpage=rpotm


(don't forget to vote! )

[tindertwiggy]

Jeebus people just go play and have fun. If you want to hack and slash and kill some stuff b/c you had a shitty day at work, then go do it. If you want to spend 8 hours in the same spot just chatting IC, then go do it.

Please for the love of Avlis just enjoy what YOU do, and let the team handle any weeding that needs to be done. Honestly, we do a good job of it.

[kokobil]

Jeebus people just go play and have fun. If you want to hack and slash and kill some stuff b/c you had a shitty day at work, then go do it. If you want to spend 8 hours in the same spot just chatting IC, then go do it.

Please for the love of Avlis just enjoy what YOU do, and let the team handle any weeding that needs to be done. Honestly, we do a good job of it.

*********************** AMEN !!! **************************

[Furin]

Announcement for those who have trouble with reading comprehension: my original post was not about powergamers. It was about a suggestion that was intended to encourage role-playing, as the current systems of Role-player of the Month and DM XP cookies already do to some extent.

1). The Avlis team wants to encourage RP.

2). They have a few ways that they do this, but those ways could of course be improved upon (after all, what can't?).

3). My suggestion was a possible way to improve upon the current amount of encouragement that RP gets.

That's it. That's all. Nothing about bashing powergamers, nothing about being jealous of other people leveling faster than I do because they kill more things than I do.

It was just an attempt to add something constructive to this world.

The appallingly low intellectual content of some of the responses to what could have been a constructive conversation, coupled with the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved (which is essentially a denial of 2). above), have pretty well convinced me of the worthlessness of trying to discuss anything with the Avlis community at large (though not at all with specific individuals).

Maybe it's a side-effect of the medium (many voices stumbling on top of one another in a cacophonous roar), or hell, maybe it's just the sheer number of people who can type faster than they can think. Whatever it is, I empathize with Deider's post in which he expresses his frustration with these boards as a medium of productive communication.

[Melakin Skywieder]

Jeebus people just go play and have fun. If you want to hack and slash and kill some stuff b/c you had a shitty day at work, then go do it. If you want to spend 8 hours in the same spot just chatting IC, then go do it.

Please for the love of Avlis just enjoy what YOU do, and let the team handle any weeding that needs to be done. Honestly, we do a good job of it.

Yah you do, which is why we love this place so much.

Game = Fun

If you arent having fun dont play the game. Stress is bad, leave it for work not for your fun time

[4x4_Ender]

The appallingly low intellectual content of some of the responses to what could have been a constructive conversation, coupled with the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved (which is essentially a denial of 2). above), have pretty well convinced me of the worthlessness of trying to discuss anything with the Avlis community at large (though not at all with specific individuals).

Thats your opinion, and thats fine. But it doesnt really matter because the team has already stated many times that they do not intend to do anything about powergaming, as far as implementing some kind of system that tries to prohibit it, short of dealing with EXTREME individual cases as they arise.

See Orlerons post here, which is the bottom line since its coming from him:

viewtopic.php?t=13127&highlight=powergaming

[Vergilius]

1). The Avlis team wants to encourage RP.

2). They have a few ways that they do this, but those ways could of course be improved upon (after all, what can't?).

3). My suggestion was a possible way to improve upon the current amount of encouragement that RP gets.

The appallingly low intellectual content of some of the responses to what could have been a constructive conversation, coupled with the team's attitude that there is no problem to be solved (which is essentially a denial of 2). above), have pretty well convinced me of the worthlessness of trying to discuss anything with the Avlis community at large (though not at all with specific individuals).

No one denied there was no problem to be solved. I only merely stated that PGing as a problem takes care of itself, which has been the standard team attitude since I became a player. However, I do think that you equivocate terms if you think this denies 2 above.

As for the appallingly low intellectual content----welcome to the boards. XP and PGing has always been a sensitive issue on the Avlis boards. Its only natural that a suggestion like this could ruffle a few feathers and get you some emotional rather than logical responses. Thats something that any discussion on the boards has to tolerate.