Proposal to encourage RP: a new way to award XP

[Vergilius]

there remains at least the possibility for tension between RP and XP..

ok, I agree, there is some tension between the two. I believe this is a construct of the player's minds. I've noticed that it is the tendency of the the die-hard RPers to dichotomize RP/XP into an either/or. Unfortunately, after a very long time, this mind set has infected a lot of the others. It is also not a true dichotomy, as Dieder points out above, grab a group and go somewhere and you are suddenly earning both xp and can RP at the same time.

Consequently, I think posts that lament PGing are BASED on this faulty mindset. Such players don't have a clear understanding of what PGing is nor do they have a clear understanding of what RP is. You CAN do BOTH at the same time. I've heard many of these same people who lament PGing describe RP in such terms that you would think it was ONLY standing around talking. My pardon, but what counts as good RP is a hell of a lot bigger than that. In fact, for some characters, standing around elf gate shooting the shit with NH/Woody might be BAD RP if thats not what the character would really do.


Lastly, there is the team's longstanding position on PGing. Orl posted recently reminding of this position, he called it self-defeating. The problem takes care of itself in other words. If you really want to PG, go right ahead. I might or might not stop you. Why? Eventually I know you're going to get bored and leave. I don't think I need to waste my time messing you over when there are other RPers out there a lot more deserving. In other words, if someone gets their kicks out of being high level, then by all means, PG away---just realize the consequences: In an RP world, it is RP that gets your real authority---if you PG, you will have level, but you'll have no true authority NOR respect in this world. If you PG, you'll make it onto my AVOID list. If you PG, you'll miss out on what counts on Avlis.

STOP and SMELL the roses.

What does the above mean? It means that no one SHOULD have to worry about PGers. IF they are PGing, guess what? They aren't in your face, they aren't messing with your gaming session---they are off in their own little world disjointed from everyone else. So that means that you the players, like the team, can simply ignore them too, they aren't worth your time or mental energy.

The only two types of PGers that anyone should have to worry about are: 1. Those that PG, and then decide to go on a killing spree. We have a watchlist for these kinds of guys and they usually end up banned----good riddance too.

2. Those that PG and then all of a sudden decide to start RPing once they hit X level. If this is extreme, it will get noticed, and trust me once you develop a reputation, you don't lose it easily. I can tell you for sure that I won't let any of these characters ever be the STAR in one of my plots. They won't get kicked out, but they are definitely not getting the prestige that comes from being the star. Of course, this is how I would consider it, other DMs would differ.

[Furin]

@4x4_Ender: I, too, had assumed that without any XP-lure tempting folks to run around killing things, they'd just want to do more interesting things, like ... almost everything you mentioned (breaking into houses and killing commoners, if that's your PC's bag--but not griefing noobs, of course).

The act of giving out XP to everyone on a time scale does not directly reward RP, that's true. But it does help PCs to do what they would do if they had no concern for XP whatsoever--and usually, that means doing the only thing you can't do in single-player: interact with other human beings.

And 4x4_Ender, this system also wouldn't change the fact that RP (which needs to be learned, as you point out) can still be taught. Veterans can still teach noobs, DMs can still reward and punish.

All this would be is another step in the right direction. It wouldn't be panacea, true--but it wouldn't be hemlock, either.

@Verg: yes, Deider's and your point about it being perfectly possible to gain XP while RP'ing is a valid one--but this addition wouldn't change that, either. All it would do is help the larger player community move toward a mentality that's more like Nighthawk4's ideal: PCs all behaving as if there were no XP, just RP'ing their character. That could include standing around talking, it could include tailing other PCs, it could include fighting in a war, it could include ridding the countryside of nasties, it could include helping children out of deep pits...

Again: all this suggestion would do is help more players make choices that are more true to their PC's character, with less distraction from the temptation of XP.[/b]

[Manuel the White]

You took the words right out of my mouth, 4x4_Ender. Look, Mom, I'm Epic! And I owe it all to .... standing around an Inn telling stories about things that I never really did. Ooops! Just leveled while posting this to the forum. Epic level 28. I'm on FIRE!

[4x4_Ender]

Exactly, Verg.... thank you.

Let them powergame, they will not last long. Who really gives a fuck if some goon refuses to roleplay?? Its not going to affect me in any way.

[Xiaou]

whatever any character I make does, is, loves or despises right now is irrelevant in a way that is obvious to the character because mystically their ability to survive damaging assaults to their life depends in some bizarre way on how many things they've killed.

My main has easily dropped more sentient beings than what live in Houston texas. No doubt about it.

What level could a pure herbalist attain as well as maximum concievable hit points without killing anything, ever if that was possible? Contrast that with a pure wheat farmer. Contrast that with an arcnae researcher, constantly in conference with mages, tomes and spirits from beyond the mortal realm. Contrast that with a thick headed barbarian out there stomping on anything that moves.

A 30xp cookie per session while appreciated isnt making a whit of difference. The point is that the narrowness of character types is IMO justifiable alone for scripted XP awards if not a revam,ping of the class system. The assumption is that we all play adventurers and even with cllasses altered to some bizzare system where "Herbalist" is a class and you get d8 hit points per level, maybe some skill points and probably no feats if you level up as an "Herbalist" we may STILL all be adventurers under the veil.

But like I said, right now best bang for the buck in self preservation is combat training, otherwise known as killing things. This obviously narrows the variety of the populations personalities.

Doesnt bother me much obviously. *shrugs*

[4x4_Ender]

You took the words right out of my mouth, 4x4_Ender. Look, Mom, I'm Epic! And I owe it all to .... standing around an Inn telling stories about things that I never really did. Ooops! Just leveled while posting this to the forum. Epic level 28. I'm on FIRE!

ROFL!

[Malathyre]

Yes, why would folks who say they are in favor of RP be opposed to attempts to encourage RP? This suggestion is based on the idea that RP is the theme, and should be encouraged.

If we are all agreed that rp is why we are all here, that this is an rp world, why do we have to encourage it in the first place? There are lots of other ways to reward rp, if we feel we must do that. We the players can do it, we don't need DM's for it, we don't need a system that rewards xp for standing around. On the second or third night I spent on Avlis, I ended up talking for about 2 hours with other characters that were the first folks I met. I earned exactly 0 xp in this time, and thought to myself, "Damn, well, I guess level 2 will be put back another night." I had to leave, and the highest level character there stopped me as I was going and gave me some minor magic items. I was blown away. All I did was stand there and chat, and here this other player parted with stuff they could have kept and sold, just cause I took time to chat with them. This is just one example, there are lots of other things one could do, too.

[Deider]

As for the system currently used on Abyss404, instead of us discussing whether or not it promotes RP it might be better if we heard from folks who actually play there - they'd know better than we would. Better yet, go and try out Abyss404 and see for yourself - nothing better than confirmation. Or, wait for us to link with them and then go over there with your Avlis PC.

[WrathOG777]

err, folks here in this here thread did use it, and do think it is great!

*scrolls up*

[Vergilius]

How about if we deduct XP if you do not RP?

I am not good as an Oracle... but if this is the position of the team then Avlis is going to lose many players. Well only me perhaps . Don't get me wrong: I love to RP but sometimes I am in a loner mood and like to wander on my own and explore places. So If I am going to lose xps when I am in my loner mood I'll go find another PW that fulfills both my needs.

Perfect illustration of my point above. The dominant mindset is that xp and RP are mutually exclusive when in fact they aren't. Technically it might be good RP for this character to "wander" around.

All this PGs hunting makes me feel bad and dirty lately

This is what I consider to be one of the worst facets of the Avlis community. There are enough people out there who want to whine/complain/hunt PGers, who think they are team members and who would rather worry about the characters of others rather than their own.

We need to consider the repurcussions: Every time this discussion comes up, there are a ton of innocent RPers who freak out and get annoyed about whether every little action is PGing or not. Its this category of relatively good RPers who are consciously concerned about their playing that I see as the main casuality in these kinds of posts.

Powergaming takes care of itself, its self-defeating. When we finally learn that, there will be no need for debate.

[Comick]

As for the system currently used on Abyss404, instead of us discussing whether or not it promotes RP it might be better if we heard from folks who actually play there - they'd know better than we would. Better yet, go and try out Abyss404 and see for yourself - nothing better than confirmation. Or, wait for us to link with them and then go over there with your Avlis PC.

Better create a native character there because that PW won't be an easy jump in/jump out world. We are talking about the Abyss.

[Furin]

Yes, why would folks who say they are in favor of RP be opposed to attempts to encourage RP? This suggestion is based on the idea that RP is the theme, and should be encouraged.

If we are all agreed that rp is why we are all here, that this is an rp world, why do we have to encourage it in the first place?

Consider a related example: many citizens of the U.S. agree that it's nice to do charitable things. However, the IRS still gives tax incentives to do so. Why? To encourage what we already know is a good thing.

We encourage RP in lots of ways, the RP'er of the Month and DM cookies being two of the most obvious. This is just another way to encourage it.

[Vergilius]

@Verg: yes, Deider's and your point about it being perfectly possible to gain XP while RP'ing is a valid one--but this addition wouldn't change that, either. All it would do is help the larger player community move toward a mentality that's more like Nighthawk4's ideal: PCs all behaving as if there were no XP, just RP'ing their character. That could include standing around talking, it could include tailing other PCs, it could include fighting in a war, it could include ridding the countryside of nasties, it could include helping children out of deep pits...

No, you entirely missed the point of my post. My point is that Powergaming is self-defeating. We don't need this system to enforce RP or to limit powergaming. We certainly don't need a system based on the assumption that XP and RP are mutually exclusive which is one of the tenants to this system.

[WrathOG777]

I'm one of them paranoid players. Every time this, some CvC discussion, griefing claims, or whatever comes up I think folks are talking about me. I should quit reading the boards entirely, this crap stresses me out.

like this... viewtopic.php?t=31734 ...has me stressed out.

[Starslayer_D]

Aye.. while entering the abbyss may be easy, leaving it is totally diffferent... don't exspect to keep your fancy equipment, either.... last time I ate a fried tendril, it crawled up out of ym stomach, grabed my swor, and ran..... bye-bye sword...

[Flakey]

Standing around talking is not the only rping you can do. I have spent plenty of time rping while out adventuring, or working in the AAAA discusing various plans for the AAAA, and the problems working with x material.

As for rewarding rping, rping with the great people of Avlis, is all the reward I need. I think its wrong to try to force people into the "correct" way to play Avlis. Over the year I have seen a number of people shoot past me in levels and then dissappear. As long as they dont get in peoples way, just ignore them.

[Titanium Dragon]

We're an RP world. We've never been an XP world. That's why the XP is turned down so low.

I've always failed to grasp why powergamers would even consider Avlis, since even for them it takes longer to level here than it does on over a dozen other PWs out there.

That's exactly why. PGers seek to exploit systems to the best of their ability, without breaking any rules. Some of them do break rules, but then they are exploiters.

A PGer wants a challenge, too. If a world is hard to PG in, some PGers will PREFER worlds like that BECAUSE they are harder to PG in, to test their skills or whatever. Also, they tend to have a rather competitive edge, and what better environment to compete in than a low-xp one?

Also, it isn't hard to PG on Avlis. I know of places where you can easily make a couple thousand XP an hour. Go to Hala or Rockhome and you can do it even easier.

Eventually I know you're going to get bored and leave.

Why, if I can get in on epic DM plots more easily, or can do CvC? Or, better yet, PG on another world, then come to Avlis so you can't tell. Why do you think people go to Hala/Rockhome, but not Taris'na'dur?

Consequently, I think posts that lament PGing are BASED on this faulty mindset. Such players don't have a clear understanding of what PGing is nor do they have a clear understanding of what RP is. You CAN do BOTH at the same time.

Of course you can. But, as was once said by a DM on these boards, DOES it happen? They talked about an RP on/off switch. If you look at how much people say while killing stuff, as opposed to not, you'll see the difference. While in a dungeon, while walking there, ect., a number of people (NOT everyone) stops talking by and large. That is part of the problem.

Now, what CAN be done is for the XP cookies given out for hours spent roelplaying to be increaced. Lets face it, one 30XP cookie for 2 hours of time playing is next ot nothing. Not that the XP is why we are doing it, but it would be a nicer reward and solve this whole XP vs. RP problem stated here.....

Indeed. 30 xp as a RP cookie is so very little. If you know psychology, if people come to associate RPing with large xp cookies, people will do it.

I might also add it would be good for DMs to focus on giving quests to the people who ARE doing this, rather than the people already out getting xp/gold. I'm sure many of you DO do this, and this is probably redundant, but if people see RPing as a way to get DM quests, this is the best way to encourage it, as DM quests are the greatest reward on Avlis.

[Vergilius]

Eventually I know you're going to get bored and leave.

Why, if I can get in on epic DM plots more easily, or can do CvC? Or, better yet, PG on another world, then come to Avlis so you can't tell. Why do you think people go to Hala/Rockhome, but not Taris'na'dur?

1. You can't get into epic Dm plots more easily. A high level character that I've never seen before sticks out like a sore thumb. If you PG on another world and come over, heck even if you legitimately level up on the other world, I and most other DMs are still going to be cautious around you.

2. CvC has its repurcussions--most who PG and get involved in CvC end up on the watchlist and banned..

They talked about an RP on/off switch. If you look at how much people say while killing stuff, as opposed to not, you'll see the difference. While in a dungeon, while walking there, ect., a number of people (NOT everyone) stops talking by and large. That is part of the problem.

Talking does not equal RP. That being said, it is the major way in which we communicate our RP. I watch plenty of groups, I see very few that are ever "silent"---they are always saying something, usually essentially, but I"m not about to expect a group to conduct a philosophical discussion on the nature of good and evil while simultaneously progressing through the dungeon----Tactics yes---thats what I do see being discussed, even if the PCs suck at them or talk in very simple terms, thats RP in my book.

[WrathOG777]

think a lot of folks are seeing this as only a way to punish PG.

That is not it at all. It is a way to make PG unnessary. It is a way to make RP more favorable.

According to the info above on this system... it can swing both ways. To increase the benifit of those that hack'n'slash less AND to decrease the benifit of those that hack'n'slash more.

If the decreased side seems as more harm than good, perhaps the code could be implemented in a way which it is only positive?

[WrathOG777]

most of my talking in combat is about like...

Whose your daddy?!
I'll make you into a boot!
You are going to taste so good with some garlic!
Muhahah!!! How's that feel statue boy?
Feel the hate!

[Xiaou]

People who talk in dangerous places freak me out. I dont mind some light casual banter if I'm fighting something I'm really not the least bit concerned about. In fact, its kind of a demented thing I do for comedic effect occasionally.

However, when someone wants to play up their PC's quirky side when we're amidst something truly dangerous thats they fastest way to end your RP with me.

I have always loved that mid-level comfort zone where you're with 3-5 10-15 level pc's. Everyone knows their job and as long as everyone stays focused no one is going to die and after all those levels of dying at the drop of a hat its a wonderful feeling like you're finally starting to not suck.

Which lasts until you strt spawning the next tier of higher CR baddies that chew you all to hell. *sighs*

[Furin]

@Verg: yes, Deider's and your point about it being perfectly possible to gain XP while RP'ing is a valid one--but this addition wouldn't change that, either. All it would do is help the larger player community move toward a mentality that's more like Nighthawk4's ideal: PCs all behaving as if there were no XP, just RP'ing their character. That could include standing around talking, it could include tailing other PCs, it could include fighting in a war, it could include ridding the countryside of nasties, it could include helping children out of deep pits...

No, you entirely missed the point of my post. My point is that Powergaming is self-defeating. We don't need this system to enforce RP or to limit powergaming. We certainly don't need a system based on the assumption that XP and RP are mutually exclusive which is one of the tenants to this system.

Oh. In that case, you entirely missed the point of my post.

First and foremost, nothing in my original post says that XP and RP are mutually exclusive, so it's not "one of the tenants[sic] to this system." All I claim is that there is the possibility of tension between them.

Second, nothing in what I propose is about punishing PG'ing. All it is is about helping people choose to do what they want to do by lessening the extent to which XP is a factor in their decision.

I am not a PG'er. However, XP is still a factor in my decisions about how to play every time I log in, as it is with every one of us.

Consider this RL example: we make money for doing certain things. Some people, like me, make lots of money to do what we do (in my case, software engineering). Other people, like many good friends I respect very much, make not so much money to do what they do (e.g., teaching in a public school, to use a common example).
I would very much enjoy teaching in a public school, but I don't do so. Why? Because of the money--I couldn't afford to live in my house in this very expensive part of the world if I were a school teacher.

Now, if someone told me I'd get N dollars a year whether I taught or built software, I'd teach in a second. Other people would still build software. Such a system wouldn't punish people who still built software--it wouldn't make any judgments about them, or about me, whatsoever. All it would do is free people to choose to spend their time as they like by reducing the extent to which money is a factor in their decision.

In this example, XP is obviously money, but what's RP? The answer is that in this example RP is enjoying your work. Yes, it's possible to enjoy your work and make money (or to gain XP and RP while doing so). It's also possible to hate your work and still make money (or to gain XP without RP'ing). There's nothing in either this example or my original post that relies on the two being mutually exclusive.

[Pessoa]

One drawback of the system proposed is that it makes leveling up the same for all character concepts. Do we really want this? If you want to have a character that focuses on crafting or trading then you should be doing it for the sake of crafting or trading and the fun it brings along with the RP. You should be content to see the warrior oriented character move past you in levels and realistically they should, combat improvement is part of what they are. Uniform XP dispursion would ruin these differences. Just because power gamers exist doesn't mean that all characters should level up at the same rate. People claim they want this to be an RP world while at the same time acting like levels are all that matters.

Another reason why I dont like the idea: I don't want XP just for being on line. I like the fact that I can be on for five hours and not get one single XP. Hell, I cringe when I get XP right now. If I had a wand that could turn off my XP I would use it regularly. I'd turn it off for weeks at a time. This is mainly because I'm currently putting in a lot of hours into Avlis. Why don't I create an alt? Because right now I like seeing the Avlis world from one perspective. I like other groups and guilds to remain a mystery.

So basically, I think the proposed system levels things out too much and I don't like the idea of automatic XP. Just these two things alone outweigh any benifits in my opinion.

P.S. If the DMs want to start giving me RP cookies in chocolate chip form rather then XP I'd be delighted.

[Khaelindra]

Why do you think people go to Hala/Rockhome, but not Taris'na'dur?

Because they told where the portal was fro Hala, and Rockhome is by now common knowledge, while Taris'na'dur seems to be shrouded in secrecy with only EDGE and a few others in the know.

Don't be such a jack-ass in assuming the worst about people's intentions. You do that way to often.

[Sarrena]

The Abyss time system exists only to control powergamers. It's a tool nothing more. It's working rather fine for us. It only controls the rate at which XP can be obtained through killing stuff.