Proposal to encourage RP: a new way to award XP

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Proposal to encourage RP: a new way to award XP

Post by Furin » Thu May 27, 2004 7:55 pm

I was reading JollyOrc's recent post and got to thinking. I'll preface what follows by acknowledging that the original idea I'm going to discuss is almost certainly out of the question for Avlis, but maybe it's still worth considering just in virtue of the fact that it might possibly plant a seed of something that won't be out of the question for Avlis...

Also, I talk below about "running around killing things", but "standing around crafting things" can be freely substituted throughout.

===============

Point the First: We like RP
In Avlis we want folks to RP, all the time. That's why we're here.

Point the Second: We also like XP
Even in a solid RP world like ours, the lure of getting XP (and thus becoming more powerful, learning neater spells/tricks/skills, etc.) is ever-present. It's tempting enough that it sometimes lures PCs to run around killing things instead of, say, hanging around The Canvas drinking and singing silly songs.

Point the Third: Therein lies the rub
The first two points represent an opening for tension that's obvious to anyone with the mental fortitude to read this post, so I won't belabor it--rather, let's take it as a given that there's an inherent possibility for tension between RP and XP.

Point the Fourth: We know all this already, you schmuck
Yes, we do. And we would all like to see a way to reduce the tension, so that PCs don't have to choose to either RP or get XP. One current solution is the RP'er of the Month award first proposed by Chiatroll long, long ago. It's nice, but it only rewards a few folks each month, so it's not a uniform fix. Another current solution is to have DMs reward RP where and when they see it by handing out XP cookies. The drawbacks to this are that 1) it's very labor-intensive for the DMs, of whom there are simply never enough, and 2) like the RP'er of the Month (albeit to a lesser extent), it doesn't happen uniformly enough to make it time-effective to RP (i.e., even with cool DMs handing out cookies, the amount of XP gained by running around killing things usually still far outstrips that gained by RP'ing).

Point the Fifth: No silver bullet yet
So the current solutions to this problem have their drawbacks, and JollyOrc finds the result (which is that players seem, at least to him, to be choosing XP over RP in higher numbers of late than in the "good ol' days") distasteful enough to post about it.

Point at which I really start to ramble
So RP seems to be at least somewhat at odds with XP, which bums many of us out. Current (manual) solutions haven't solved the problem, though they certainly mitigate it. What about automating a solution? Well, the obvious problem with an automated solution to this problem is that we can't write code that's smart enough to figure out when folks are RP'ing and when they're running around killing things--well, at least not without lagging the servers to an unplayable death.

But what if it didn't have to? (This is a teaser; more to come below. :))

Anyone who played the Bioware mod Witches Wake (or was it Witch's Wake?) remembers that in that game you got 0 XP for killing things. Sometimes you needed to kill something, sometimes you didn't, but it was never a goal per se. When I played it I was amazed at how infrequently I fought anything; it was a pretty stark illustration of the fact that I'm more of an XP whore than I'd thought.

Bring that back to Avlis. I personally don't get to play a lot, but I like to RP when I do get online. That means I don't get XP very often (Furin is level 11, and he's been running (er, walking) around M'Chek and the more northerly nations since the end of October 2002). But more importantly, it means that every time I log in I have to choose whether I'm going to RP or run around killing things in hopes of someday seeing level 12. This is clearly not a choice that's unique to my situation--every one of us makes it explicitly or implicitly when we log in.

Point the Somethingth: The seed of my idea
But what if there were no such choice? What if in a given hour, you'd know you were going to get a certain amount of XP whether you went to The Canvas or to the Iron Mines? In other words: what if, when you logged in, whether you RP'ed or ran around killing things had no effect whatsoever on your XP advancement?

If XP progress were a (more-or-less) straight function of time online, then there would be no more tension between RP and XP. People who like talking could talk, people who like killing things could kill things, and people who like crafting things could craft things. Of course, this is a major departure from standard D&D rules, but an online D&D game is already fundamentally different from a PnP game anyway.

The more salient objection is that reducing killing-things XP (and crafting-things XP) to 0 would be absolutely untenable (socially, functionally, technically, logistically, etc.) in Avlis, so this is not my actual proposal for our fair world. But my proposal does stem from this idea.

Point the Something-elseth: The proposal
Here's where the good stuff comes in--where all this blathering reduces to a concrete proposal. That proposal is:

What if we incorporate time online as a factor in XP advancement? We could still have XP for running around killing things and standing around crafting things (and/or we could ratchet down both as desired). We could still have XP cookies for DM-witnessed RP. We could still have quest XP (both automated and DM-blessed). But in addition to all these, what if we had a mostly-offline process that awards XP for time online?

I say mostly-offline because the first objection will be that PG'ers would abuse such a system by logging in and then going to {sleep/take a shower/work/eat dinner/etc}. So we could add a straightforward (online, real-time) check that would sort of "chalk the tires" of PCs in a given area: if PC Bilbo is standing in spot X doing nothing at time T and is still there doing nothing at time T + N, that time wouldn't count toward any XP advancement for time online.

And of course, such a system could still be abused. So the XP awarded would be small--very small to begin with, just to see how things went. But even a very small amount of XP would give me as a player the knowledge that even if I log in, talk for an hour without killing or crafting one damned thing, and log off, I'm still going to be getting something for my troubles in the way of XP.

The best part of such a system is the fact that it would be (mostly) offline--hence, it wouldn't lag down the system noticeably. I.e., all calculation of time online -> XP awarded could happen once a day, or once a week, or whenever. (In the DB biz we call these "cron jobs", and they're great.) There's no reason such an XP award would have to happen instantaneously--in PnP, after all, we often find out about our XP advancements in the week following a session. Once the calculation were complete for a given PC, that PC would get a little XP cookie on his/her next log-in. Simple.

Point at which I stop typing
This idea is immature. It's flawed. It might be downright bad. But it's here now, on the boards, ready for your comments and insights. What do you folks think? Is there anything salvageable here, or have I just wasted a lot of perfectly good work time (slowly) typing this beast up?
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Post by Kreetogg » Thu May 27, 2004 8:05 pm

The single biggest problem with this is that the more measures taken to prevent abuse, the laggier things will get.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:07 pm

I would be darn content to see all exp for killing and crafting completely shut off.

Then instead making it a comepletely time on-line function.
- that is, with some exception code that figures out if a PC is actualy playing or not. Something that cannot be fooled easily by just logging on and takeing a shower or going to work, etc, yet still does not pentalize folks that do need to go afk because their kid got bit by a dog and needs to go to the hospital NOW.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by Starslayer_D » Thu May 27, 2004 8:07 pm

The Copap Server Abyss404 has such a system working. They to modify Xp gained for time spend online. They set an average time to gain a certain sum of XP (your current ones) , and the more your time online deviates from that average time, the more your XP gained are modified (up to 200% or 10%).

They also take into account that people may leave a character standing iddle while XP accumulate. A no go. You get booted off server if you stand iddle for longer than 5 minutes...

I lve that system, personally. Given how many hundreds of hours spend in RP, my XP rate would still be at 200%... honestly.
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Post by Furin » Thu May 27, 2004 8:09 pm

@Kreetog: True, but consider that once the very simple avenues for abuse are prevented, the remaining options will be so mind-numbingly boring, and the XP gain so small in absolute terms, that they will preclude themselves.

I.e., sure, someone could get (a small amount of) XP by running back and forth in an empty area, but why on earth would they do so when it would be more cost-effective (and way more fun) to run around killing things?

I'm not talking thousands of XP per hour here: just something, a nod, a gesture: perhaps, say, 50 XP in an hour to start with. You could easily gain that in much more productive ways and in much less time if you wanted to do so.


@ Starslayer: well, hell; here I thought I had an original idea! *Makes a face like Russell Crowe in A Beautiful Mind.*
Last edited by Furin on Thu May 27, 2004 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Khaelindra » Thu May 27, 2004 8:10 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:The Copap Server Abyss404 has such a system working. They to modify Xp gained for time spend online. They set an average time to gain a certain sum of XP (your current ones) , and the more your time online deviates from that average time, the more your XP gained are modified (up to 200% or 10%).

They also take into account that people may leave a character standing iddle while XP accumulate. A no go. You get booted off server if you stand iddle for longer than 5 minutes...

I lve that system, personally. Given how many hundreds of hours spend in RP, my XP rate would still be at 200%... honestly.
:shock:

wow...it's even better than i thought...now if only they had normal races... :roll: :lol:

i think the ABYSS-system sounds marvelous.
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Post by Starslayer_D » Thu May 27, 2004 8:11 pm

Te abbyss system works very nice... one has to consider that you need to have played ~ 70 hours in order to be on par for a lvl 9 character... this rewards RP, and makes powerleveling impossible.. as tested by quite a few people.
ashzz: at the very core of the problem is that good characters and organizations can do much more EVIL in the name of good than evil can do evil.
Daerthe: There is only room for so much realism before things start to get silly
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Post by Kreetogg » Thu May 27, 2004 8:11 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:They also take into account that people may leave a character standing iddle while XP accumulate. A no go. You get booted off server if you stand iddle for longer than 5 minutes...
And the problem with that is people who "observer" IC stand a good chance of getting booted for doing what thier character demands. I've just plain stood there for countless IG hours just watching. Its necessary for some characters, and it would suck to get punished for it.
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Post by Furin » Thu May 27, 2004 8:12 pm

Kreetogg wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:They also take into account that people may leave a character standing iddle while XP accumulate. A no go. You get booted off server if you stand iddle for longer than 5 minutes...
And the problem with that is people who "observer" IC stand a good chance of getting booted for doing what thier character demands. I've just plain stood there for countless IG hours just watching. Its necessary for some characters, and it would suck to get punished for it.

You could solve this quite easily by just shifting ever so slightly or doing some similar thing to let the system know you're there. I'd bet the Abyss player base has adapted to this rather well by now.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:13 pm

Kreetogg wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:They also take into account that people may leave a character standing iddle while XP accumulate. A no go. You get booted off server if you stand iddle for longer than 5 minutes...
And the problem with that is people who "observer" IC stand a good chance of getting booted for doing what thier character demands. I've just plain stood there for countless IG hours just watching. Its necessary for some characters, and it would suck to get punished for it.
I am pretty sure that the server side term 'idle' compared to a character being silent and standing still are not the same thing.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by Starslayer_D » Thu May 27, 2004 8:15 pm

All you have to do is move slightly, emote or speak, and your character is not booted. Honestly, even a RL avid listener moves a finger in 5 minutes of listening.. if he doesn't, he's fallen asleep.

*Idle* in abyss terms means if you#re AFK from keyboard longer than 5 minutes...


and to prevent the next comment: they have an OOC longue wich you can access anytime you are not in combat. It is OOC. You don't get booted there, but time spend there to talk about OOC things or to be afk doesn't count towards your time spend online. BUt this is a lace where you can be and talk OOC things, or go away and feed the dog.
You can't trade there, or kill people, though.
ashzz: at the very core of the problem is that good characters and organizations can do much more EVIL in the name of good than evil can do evil.
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Post by Nighthawk4 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:18 pm

I may be missing the point here, but one I would like to add of my own.

Players are not supposed to beat the crap out of anything that moves, or craft like anything, or stand around doing sweet FA - until the lookout says 'Watch out - DM online' - at which point you all start RPing your little hearts out, gratefully collecting the DM cookies - thankyou very much :wink:

What players are supposed to be doing is Roleplaying - that is why we are here (point one from above, I think).

We do not RP because it gains cookies, we RP because that is why we are here. The cookie is a bonus.

It also helps to make up for the fact that you can probably make a whole stack more XP in the FoM or the LRC or the Spider Caves (did I leave any out?) than by standing around RPing - but that is not the point.

Roleplay is Everything 8)
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Post by Kreetogg » Thu May 27, 2004 8:18 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:I am pretty sure that the server side term 'idle' compared to a character being silent and standing still are not the same thing.
Yeah but how is that time calculated? What triggers it? What if a character wants to be hidden and has a very high hide, but low MS. It just seems like a huge pain in many possible situations. What if someone is dazed for 5 minutes? (Unlikley, I'm sure). Then there has to be more checks to see if that is the case, and then that slows things down more, and bla bla bla...
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Post by Arena Helerin » Thu May 27, 2004 8:22 pm

If I understand your position correctly, the player who encounters the gaming experience has to make the decision to RP or to gain XP. I know this is a bit of a simplification, but that's what it boils down to in the original argument. The only way that a character is rewarded with XP for RP is if a DM is handing out cookies. The balance then is that XP for RP is greatly less the XP for other activities. The solution to this is for the XP for RP to match or exceed the XP for other activities if you wish to see more characters embrace RP. My suggestion if this is the argument, is that DM's be a bit liberal with XP when observing RP. It always is great getting DM love. I hate to say this, but it does linger in the back of my mind when I do get an XP cookie "I've been purely RPing for over an hour and I've only gotten 30 XP. If I were out bashing, I could have gotten that in a minute." My motivation is more to have fun then to gain XP, but the thought does cross my mind.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:26 pm

Kreetogg wrote:
WrathOG777 wrote:I am pretty sure that the server side term 'idle' compared to a character being silent and standing still are not the same thing.
Yeah but how is that time calculated? What triggers it? What if a character wants to be hidden and has a very high hide, but low MS. It just seems like a huge pain in many possible situations. What if someone is dazed for 5 minutes? (Unlikley, I'm sure). Then there has to be more checks to see if that is the case, and then that slows things down more, and bla bla bla...
Accessing your inventory, player list, or character sheet is a server request. Those are interaction between the server and the player that no other player can observe in any way, niether are they effected by any spell. Now, I am not sure they are considered by the abyss routine, but they would be things a server could do to notice if a PC is 'idle'.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by Nighthawk4 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:38 pm

Perhaps I was not clear - DM Cookies are not intended to be a payment to make it worthwhile to RP instead of looking for XP in other ways.

Anyone who is only prepared to RP if the DM cookies are high enough to compensate for the time spent doing so is on the wrong PW.

You RP because that is why you are here.

How about if we deduct XP if you do not RP? :twisted:
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Post by Dralix » Thu May 27, 2004 8:44 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:How about if we deduct XP if you do not RP? :twisted:
My understanding was that that was always a card the DMs could play, but they rarely had to.
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Post by Nighthawk4 » Thu May 27, 2004 8:46 pm

Dralix wrote:
Nighthawk4 wrote:How about if we deduct XP if you do not RP? :twisted:
My understanding was that that was always a card the DMs could play, but they rarely had to.
True - but most of us do not like to do that.

Fortunately, most of us do not need to do so, as most people do RP most of the time. :wink:
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Post by Deider » Thu May 27, 2004 8:58 pm

We're an RP world. We've never been an XP world. That's why the XP is turned down so low.

I've always failed to grasp why powergamers would even consider Avlis, since even for them it takes longer to level here than it does on over a dozen other PWs out there.

I know people what to see their characters develop not just as personalities but a heroes - in other words, they want to see their levels go up.

But it's like NH4 said. RP does not equal XP. Now here's a wacky thought - if you want to go out and gain XP one day, how about partying up and RPing while gaining XP fighting monsters or doing a scripted quest? :D
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Post by Malathyre » Thu May 27, 2004 9:05 pm

I completely agree with everything that Nighthawk4 has said here. Rping is its own reward, and it is why I am here. Cookies, no cookies, I'm still going to rp my character. Earn XP over time, don't earn XP over time, i'm going to rp my character. Level every 3 months, level every damn week, I'm going to rp my character. Whatever, rp is why I'm here, rp is why I stay.
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Post by Furin » Thu May 27, 2004 9:15 pm

Yes, RP is its own reward. Yes, we expect people to RP. Yes, Avlis is a bad place for PG'ers.

None of this contradicts anything I said in my original post above. The crucial point here is that despite all of these statements, there remains at least the possibility for tension between RP and XP. It is a fact that that tension has caused enough people to choose XP over RP enough times to account for literally hundreds of posts in these very boards lamenting the presence of PG'ing in our midst. Platitudes won't change reality; my only intention is to suggest something that might--i.e., an additional way that we can encourage and foster the type of RP environment we all profess to love.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Thu May 27, 2004 9:27 pm

Yes, why would folks who say they are in favor of RP be opposed to attempts to encourage RP? This suggestion is based on the idea that RP is the theme, and should be encouraged.

How could the exp being moderated to down play hack and slash be counter productive to RP? How could the exp being moderated to up rewards for those who do not hack and slash be anything but an encentive to RP?

I am in favor of giveing any attempt that intends to encourage RP by making it more enticeing a chance, however that reward be implemented.

DMs are admitedly scarce, thus an automated approach that seems to be tried, true, and working on the Abyss seems very tempting.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by 4x4_Ender » Thu May 27, 2004 9:27 pm

Here is why this idea of a system that gives out XP to EVERYONE based on a time scale is a VERY BAD idea: because it does not PROMOTE ROLEPLAY! This system rewards XP no matter what you do, basically right?? So, whether someone is or is not roleplaying does not factor into whether they actually earn the XP or not. This is opposed to the DM cookies where they actually see you roleplaying and reward you for it.

What this means is that newbies under this system would not learn how to roleplay because they would not be encouraged to do so more than anyone else would. They KNOW their going to earn that xp reguardless of whaty they do, so why not just fuck around by raiding houses for loot, going on killing sprees, greifing noobs, etc??

The fact is roleplay is something that has to be LEARNED. I know that when i started, i had no fucking clue what it actually meant to RP outside of PNP and MMPORPG's like asheron's call. Its like trying to train a dog to do tricks or listen to commands: when he obeys, you reward him and when he doesnt obey he doesnt get shit. But, if you reward him no matter what, he has absolutely no reason to do a trick for you and will refuse to follow your commands.

Now, what CAN be done is for the XP cookies given out for hours spent roelplaying to be increaced. Lets face it, one 30XP cookie for 2 hours of time playing is next ot nothing. Not that the XP is why we are doing it, but it would be a nicer reward and solve this whole XP vs. RP problem stated here..... if that is a problem? Because honestly, plenty of RPing goes on WHILE you are earning xp by exploring and such. But, your basically assuming that there is ZERO roleplaying going on while adventuring, which just isnt true unless you solo (and sometimes there is even plenty of RP in solo cases, like DM interaction to promote plotlines).

So I say, thanks for the suggestion, but its only going to make things worse IMO.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Thu May 27, 2004 9:33 pm

4x4_Ender wrote:Here is why this idea of a system that gives out XP to EVERYONE based on a time scale is a VERY BAD idea: because it does not PROMOTE ROLEPLAY! This system rewards XP no matter what you do, basically right?? So, whether someone is or is not roleplaying does not factor into whether they actually earn the XP or not. This is opposed to the DM cookies where they actually see you roleplaying and reward you for it.

What this means is that newbies under this system would not learn how to roleplay because they would not be encouraged to do so more than anyone else would. They KNOW their going to earn that xp reguardless of whaty they do, so why not just fuck around by raiding houses for loot, going on killing sprees, greifing noobs, etc??

The fact is roleplay is something that has to be LEARNED. I know that when i started, i had no fucking clue what it actually meant to RP outside of PNP and MMPORPG's like asheron's call. Its like trying to train a dog to do tricks or listen to commands: when he obeys, you reward him and when he doesnt obey he doesnt get shit. But, if you reward him no matter what, he has absolutely no reason to do a trick for you and will refuse to follow your commands.

Now, what CAN be done is for the XP cookies given out for hours spent roelplaying to be increaced. Lets face it, one 30XP cookie for 2 hours of time playing is next ot nothing. Not that the XP is why we are doing it, but it would be a nicer reward and solve this whole XP vs. RP problem stated here..... if that is a problem? Because honestly, plenty of RPing goes on WHILE you are earning xp by exploring and such. But, your basically assuming that there is ZERO roleplaying going on while adventuring, which just isnt true unless you solo (and sometimes there is even plenty of RP in solo cases, like DM interaction to promote plotlines).

So I say, thanks for the suggestion, but its only going to make things worse IMO.
Well, I do assume that when folks start thinking they are going to get XP regaurdless they shall be more inclined to seek RP more and more, but I always seem to think people are good by nature and tend toward doing good things.

I was thinking the exact same thing. "So why not just fuck around?" Only I was thinking that would lead to more frequent, deep, and enjoyable RP.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
Comick
Apprentice Scholar
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Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:18 pm
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Post by Comick » Thu May 27, 2004 9:37 pm

Nighthawk4 wrote:How about if we deduct XP if you do not RP?
I am not good as an Oracle... but if this is the position of the team then Avlis is going to lose many players. Well only me perhaps :roll: . Don't get me wrong: I love to RP but sometimes I am in a loner mood and like to wander on my own and explore places. So If I am going to lose xps when I am in my loner mood I'll go find another PW that fulfills both my needs.

My point is that RP is at the service of character development. For me what's fun in character development is both the development of character's background, major events in her/his life, accomplished deeds AND her/his evolving powers. Unfortunately the last point can only be reached by earning xps in D&D.

What I see currently is for example Kered Rose heading to the Warrens to crump bugbears because it's basically the only way he thinks he can earn xps. :( Luckily (well maybe not so luckily) that day he met Lydia and we crumped bugbears and roleplayed together. But the first thought I had when I saw him heading to the Warrens was "WTF is he doing there ?". I have much respect for Kered's player. I haven't RPed with him often but that guy rocks as a RPer.

All this PGs hunting makes me feel bad and dirty lately. Do I earn too many xps by killing stuff or not that many ? :roll: I made Aqua commit suicide when she was level 7 and I started over with her at level 1 just for RP sake. I guess I am not a PG... but anyway I feel bad and dirty. And it's not fun. :(

So I love your idea Furin. I DO really love it. It will end all this PG nightmare. Players whining about PGs... The team being force to state "We are watching you guys and we are ready to ban you". That's so sad. :(
Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, who knows ?
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