Why are Holy Warriors crap?

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:13 pm

Looking at the thread on Holy Warrior requirements and benefits, I am struck by the fact that they have harder pre-requisites than Blackguards, but are simply nowhere near as good in terms of the benefits available.

Why is this? Is it so people will only take them for roleplay reasons, not uberness reasons, or are there things missing from that thread and they actually have more abilities?

KTA · Post by **KTA** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:56 pm

Hmm... the official Players Guide shows the same. I do think they are a bitt "weak" too.

KTA

DAnjal Veskandar Rai · Post by **DAnjal Veskandar Rai** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:17 pm

Fifty wrote:Is it so people will only take them for roleplay reasons, not uberness reasons, ...

I'd pick this answer.

Post by **Orleron** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:34 pm

That post was actually made before HoTU and epic levels came out. They now go above 10th level, and they have more abilities added to them that are not listed there. Most are beyond 7th level. However, no one has yet made an epic level holy warrior, and I am waiting to see if they are even able to become epic because of the way Bioware set up epic feats.

KTA · Post by **KTA** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:10 pm

*wonders how Bioware set up the epic feats...*

KTA

makeshiftwings · Post by **makeshiftwings** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:20 am

I think giving all the Holy Warriors Divine Grace (aka Charisma bonus to Saves like the paladin and blackguard) would help them out. Also, I'm not sure if the "Turn [Whatever]" feats that some of them get instead of Turn Undead allow picking up Divine Might and Divine Shield, but if they do or could be made to, that would be a big help as well. In my opinion (and many others I've met), Divine Grace, Divine Might, and Divine Shield are the three best things about Paladins and Blackguards, so I think it would be important to make sure these things are available to all holy warriors to keep them all relatively equal in uberness

.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:47 am

makeshiftwings wrote:I think giving all the Holy Warriors Divine Grace (aka Charisma bonus to Saves like the paladin and blackguard) would help them out. Also, I'm not sure if the "Turn [Whatever]" feats that some of them get instead of Turn Undead allow picking up Divine Might and Divine Shield, but if they do or could be made to, that would be a big help as well. In my opinion (and many others I've met), Divine Grace, Divine Might, and Divine Shield are the three best things about Paladins and Blackguards, so I think it would be important to make sure these things are available to all holy warriors to keep them all relatively equal in uberness .

*agrees, but thinks we are getting into the realms of discussion in the Ask The Team forum*

Post by **tindertwiggy** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:54 am

Going holy warrior is a good way to get some dm love though.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:31 am

Would it be acceptable to collate and post the current skills as of CoPaPHak 3.1 to this thread or even somewhere more visible? I half did it then decided to make sure it was ok before bothing finishing

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:49 am

I don't see why not. Go for it.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:25 pm

Here you go. Straight from the 2DAs and hopefully legible. Enjoy. Didn't bother listing Paladins and Blackguards, as i'd be willing to be the only changes to those classes are the detect good/evil abilities.

ANNIHILATORS:
Level 1: Medium Armor, Detect Good, Martial Weapons, Simple Weapons
Level 2: Smite Good
Level 3: Negative Energy Ray, Inflict Serious Wounds
Level 4: Turn Outsider
Level 5: Sneak attack
Level 7: Sneak attack2, Inflict Critical Wounds
Level 15: Epic Fiend
CLASS SKILLS: Disable Trap, Hide, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Search, SetTrap, Taunt

AVENGERS:
Level 1: Detect Law, Simple Weapons
Level 2: Summon Animal Servant
Level 3: Smite Law, Foxs Cunning (*pines for Cats Grace*)
Level 5: Cure Serious Wounds, Turn Undead
Level 7: Seeker Arrow 1
Level 9: Seeker Arrow 2
Levels 11: Enchant Arrow 1. Enchant arrow gains a + every 3 levels from there until 32 (only possible for NPCs)
CLASS SKILLS: Concentration, DisableTrap, Heal, Hide, MoveSilently, persuade, Spot, Tumble

CHAMPIONS:
Level 1: Detetct Evil, Heavy Armor, Simple Weapons, Cure Light Wounds
Level 3: Smite Evil
Level 4: Turn Outsider
Level 5: Remove Disease, Cure Serious Wounds
Level 7: Celestial Servant
(Champions don't seem to be updated for epic levels yet)
CLASS SKILLS: Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Lore, Parry, Persuade, Spot

CONFOUNDERS:
Level 1: Detect Law, Simple Weapons, Medium Armor
Level 3: Smite Law
Level 4: Turn Construct
Level 5: Contagion
Level 6: Slaad Servant
Level 7: Whirling Flail
Level 9: Whirlwind Attack
Level 10: Wild Shape 1 (Wild Shape improves at at 13, 16, 19, 22, 25)
Level 12: Improved Whirlwind Attack
Level 20: Humanoid Shape
Level 28: Elemental shape (Elemental Shape improves at 31, 33, 36)
Level 39: Infinite Wildshape
Level 40: Infinite Elemental Shape
CLASS SKILLS: Heal, Hide, Listen, Search, Spot, Taunt, Tumble

DOMINATORS:
Level 1: Detect Good, Martial and Simple Weapons, Medium Armor
Level 2: Smite Good, Dark Blessing
Level 3: Lay on Hurt
Level 4: Eagles Splendor
Level 5: Turn Undead
Level 15: Epic Fiend
CLASS SKILLS: Concentration, Discipline, Hide, Listen, Lore, Persuade, Search, Taunt (No Move Silently to go with the hide, double checked)

EQUALIZERS
Level 1: Detect Law, Detect Chaos, Martial and Simple weapons, Medium Armor
Level 3: Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4: Smite Good, Smite Evil, Inflict Serious Wounds
Level 6: Bestow Curse
(Equalizers don't seem to be updated for epic levels yet)
CLASS SKILLS: Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Listen, Parry, Search, Spot, Taunt

JUSTICAR
level 1: Detect Chaos, Martial and Simple Weapons, Medium Armor
Level 3: Smite Chaos, Hold Person
Level 5: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Magic Circle Vs Chaos (bit of a PITA since circles are broken in NWN

), Lay On Hands, Lay On Hurt
(Justicars don't seem to be updated for epic levels yet)
CLASS SKILLS: Concentration, Discipline, Parry, Persuade, Search, Spot

Post by **Orleron** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:00 pm

Something seems wrong. I'm pretty sure I updated all of them with more stuff than that. I have to check my files.

makeshiftwings · Post by **makeshiftwings** » Mon May 03, 2004 4:32 am

The Confounder skills at level 39 and 40 would never be attainable, since you need a BAB of +7 before you can become a counfounder, and thus can only ever have 33 total confounder levels since the cap is 40 (most characters will probably take up confounder later than 8th level too)... could those abilities be moved to lower levels?

Post by **Orleron** » Mon May 03, 2004 4:50 am

Again, those stats seem a little weird. I don't think I wrote them that way, but I've got no time to check at the moment. I will though.

fleuretty · Post by **fleuretty** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:15 am

Has the list of pre-requisites/feats been updated? My char is looking to become a Justicar and I'd like to see what other feats are available as some of the other Holy Warriors seem to have a good few more feats over 7th level.

Manuel the White · Post by **Manuel the White** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:31 pm

I'm not sure if any updates have been made but here is the official thread on it: viewtopic.php?t=19536 . AFAIK, this is current.

fleuretty · Post by **fleuretty** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:03 pm

Thanks Manuel!

Wondered one last thing for Holy Warriors - feat progression - is it the same as fighters? Other than that, dying to be a Justicar, just hope some more abilities get added

sozin · Post by **sozin** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:11 am

just double checked the annihilator; you missed one:

ANNIHILATORS:
Level 1: Medium Armor, Detect Good, Martial Weapons, Simple Weapons
Level 2: Smite Good
Level 3: Negative Energy Ray, Inflict Serious Wounds
Level 4: Turn Outsider
Level 5: Sneak attack
Level 7: Sneak attack2, Inflict Critical Wounds
Level 15: Epic Fiend
CLASS SKILLS: Disable Trap, Hide, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Search, SetTrap, Taunt

Lvl 9: Sneak attack3

I for one am curious as to the historical reasons behind the "Turn Outsider" feat. What happened in Shaheesk history that made their holy warriors got at this? Asked Orl but haven't got a reply yet

sozin

zombie_frog · Post by **zombie_frog** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:30 pm

Can the Ranger automatic two weapon fighting feat count for the Champions requirement?

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:18 pm

No, unfortunately.

Serineth Swiftpaw · Post by **Serineth Swiftpaw** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:37 pm

lol, Confounders have better shifting abilities than Druids do.

Sojan · Post by **Sojan** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:31 pm

EDIT!!! DOUBLE POST...sorry...see below

Sojan · Post by **Sojan** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:33 pm

Manuel the White wrote:I'm not sure if any updates have been made but here is the official thread on it: viewtopic.php?t=19536 . AFAIK, this is current.

I was just wondering what were the alignments prerequisites for those...

Of course if it says you have the ability to detect law you probably must not be lawful but hey...just wondered.

And have you ever thought that Avenger...well...with their weapon focus on longbow will never have halfling within their ranks? that...well...is too bad...

I am targeting something else now

Snow · Post by **Snow** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:41 pm

Holy warriors always have the same alignment as their deities. Halfling Avengers? There aren't even elf avengers around

Hortis · Post by **Hortis** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:58 pm

You can take weapon focus even if you can't use the weapon.

Hortis is a halfling Confounder with weapon focus: Heavy flail, despite the fact that he can't use a heavy flail.

The World of Avlis

Why are Holy Warriors crap?

Why are Holy Warriors crap?

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