Hide in Plain Sight

[Titanium Dragon]

In my testing of the skill, you could just stand there, disengage, HiPS instantly, and do it ad-infinitum. Additionally, you could get in several attack and do this in the same round.

TD: Were your tests performed on Avlis against the AI that is on Avlis? If not, then your testing of the skill has no bearing on HiPS on Avlis. Several Shadowdancers have have used thsi skill on Avlis and disagree with your assessment of the skill, saying that even after hiding, monsters still attack them, even chase them through area transitions.

I tested it against the HotU AI, which is replacing the AI on Avlis according to the posts I have read (it already has on several servers I believe).

[storminj]

TD, I have to disagree with you. Friday has been using SD for almost as long as Val and I have not seen what you claim. This is on avlis AI and I just was playing with it this morning.

I think you are mixing up your rounds. I have tested it and even posted something on it. I will say it again for the record. You cannot Attack and HIPS in the same round. I have tried against a vareity of creatures and have not found it to be true. THere are some cases of the creatures not seeing you for two rounds but this happens when server is laggin a bit and also happened before I had HIPS.

I see on a regular basis creatures attacking while HIPs is activated and you can not do anything during said round of reactivating. I say this because I find it rather annoying that a creature can track and attack you even with a far superior hide.

I have also noticed other things that help verify this. If you attack something while standing farther then 5' you will a majority of the time only get one attack action for the round. You have to be within 5' for your full attack action and never have I gotten more than 2 sneak attacks (main/off hand) in one round.

I have never used HIPS in a CvC situation and cannot comment on it more than saying that the administration of avlis has always posted that they will not modify things because of CvC discrepencies.

[kokobil]

I have seen how cheesy the ability HIPS is. An opponent may easily hide attack you then hide again wait a little then attack you again. It's like slow death. Therefore a good solution would be The shadowdancer after leaving shadows and perform an attack he should not be able to hide again for 1 hour. That would be more fair for all.

[Vroshgrak]

that wouldn't be fair at all. thats like saying "you can only improved knockdown 4 times a day" or some other arbritary number. I haven't seen any ABUSE of HiPS and so i'll say. let them continue until they start abusing it. if it aint broken, dont fix it.

[Dirk Cutlass]

that wouldn't be fair at all. thats like saying "you can only improved knockdown 4 times a day" or some other arbritary number. I haven't seen any ABUSE of HiPS and so i'll say. let them continue until they start abusing it. if it aint broken, dont fix it.

I think HipS is of more concern in the hands of NPCs - particularly where Silk's involved. I'm just glad Jadiea's left now, otherwise I'd expect hundreds of undead monk assassins using this feat

[Demandred]

that wouldn't be fair at all. thats like saying "you can only improved knockdown 4 times a day" or some other arbritary number. I haven't seen any ABUSE of HiPS and so i'll say. let them continue until they start abusing it. if it aint broken, dont fix it.

Have you had any PvP fight with a shadow dancer so far?
If not ask someone who has!

I have seen people vanishing in front of my eyes just to snoop at my business, not say "Hello" to me, if that is not abuse then excuse me for thinking so!

IMHO, as it has probably been said before, if Bioware had made the HIPS feat available at the 10th level of a shadow dancer, the class would have more value and would be worth following (now it sucks compared to a pure thief -Also IMHO-), it would have been balanced and most of all it would reflect the shadow nature of a Shadow Dancer perfectly.

[Arandil]

I've had a CvC against a shadowdancer. Was no problem for me, sure, she vanished now and then, but I didn't see anything unbalancing. Mind you, , my PC had true seeing, so spot was >50. But she still lost ( was a training exercise btw ). I can understand how someone without TS might struggle however.

[TheElvenKing]

Have you had any PvP fight with a shadow dancer so far?
If not ask someone who has!

Except PvP is not encouraged on Avlis, since the idea is that players are to be IC at all times. And the same argument can be made about a monk's Quivering Palm feat or natural Haste, but people have become accustomed to it by now so you don't see the monk bashing that existed when NWN first emerged. You should see the Bioware forums from that year...

[Dirk Cutlass]

I've had a CvC against a shadowdancer. Was no problem for me, sure, she vanished now and then, but I didn't see anything unbalancing. Mind you, , my PC had true seeing, so spot was >50. But she still lost ( was a training exercise btw ). I can understand how someone without TS might struggle however.

I guess area effect spells come in handy too - since you can just target where you think the SD is! A bog-standard fighter type is probably best off leaving the field if an SD seriously decided to try to take him out.

My only defense would be to run around a lot and hope I bumped into her

[Demandred]

Except PvP is not encouraged on Avlis, since the idea is that players are to be IC at all times. And the same argument can be made about a monk's Quivering Palm feat or natural Haste, but people have become accustomed to it by now so you don't see the monk bashing that existed when NWN first emerged. You should see the Bioware forums from that year...

1) Apologies, I meant CvC of course...

2) HIPS cannot be compared with the Quivering palm of the Monk, trust me on this, as I play a 23 level Monk, who cannot have true seeing in ANY possible way on Avlis, so the only thing he can and will do in such a case is drink a Haste potion and travel Elysia-Mikona in 2 minutes or less.

Let us not get into each classe's advantages, everyone has something to relly on (wizards can haste, clerics heal, blah, blah, blah..).

Quivering palm (once you mentioned it) involves an attack roll, a fair DC saving throw (unless a monk has invested his whole character creation in it, which is hopeless IMO), and also is done ONCE per rest...

[kokobil]

Have you had any PvP fight with a shadow dancer so far?
If not ask someone who has!

Except PvP is not encouraged on Avlis, since the idea is that players are to be IC at all times. And the same argument can be made about a monk's Quivering Palm feat or natural Haste, but people have become accustomed to it by now so you don't see the monk bashing that existed when NWN first emerged. You should see the Bioware forums from that year...

Not at all! The quilvering palm has a very low fortitude DC. It may be raised but is a pain to do that and needs many epic monk feats. It is also 1 time per day/rest. The monk's speed is ok . At least he is visible and can be targeted. Also has a low AC comparable to other classes.Also has not uncanny dodge. Personaly i consider it one of the not so favorable classes as things have turned to be after 2 expansions. So lets not talk about monks. With the new spells every fighter can have a +5 weapon and in all cases +10 more AC than the monk because of the magic vestment spells. On the other hand HIPS is very unfair because you can easily built fighter tank with no bab penalties able to sneak and HIPS all the time. The restriction of 1 hour that must pass after the last time he appeared is fair. For the case of course that there are no hostile creatures nearby, the hide ability should work like the common rogue so no restrictions in common hide ability. If a player was doing that to me. Attack then hide then attack then hide etc i would consider it griefing.

[Silk]

that wouldn't be fair at all. thats like saying "you can only improved knockdown 4 times a day" or some other arbritary number. I haven't seen any ABUSE of HiPS and so i'll say. let them continue until they start abusing it. if it aint broken, dont fix it.

I think HipS is of more concern in the hands of NPCs - particularly where Silk's involved. I'm just glad Jadiea's left now, otherwise I'd expect hundreds of undead monk assassins using this feat

Sorry, but this tactic is EXACTLY how I originally designed the Sereg's to act from the beginning. HiPS allows them to actually implement their actual combat strategy.

Sereg tactics are based upon deception and evasion.

[storminj]

You are just being ridiculous now. A character with high spot can see a HIPS player. I know from expereince. There are area effect spells and other means of dealing with this including a potion know as invisibility. Perhaps if people are worried about this they should spen some more points on spot. To build a fighter/rogue/shadow dancer like you suggest would take quite some time and not as effective as you want us to believe.

Please....lets let this horse rest in peace.

[Croton]

Instead of people complaining that they get their asses handed to them by HIPS, I wish they'd go figure out ways to combat it. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of ways to neutralize a shadowdancer, but one of them is not "My Slow Dumb Blind level 1 solo character uses his balls to absorb the shadowdancers attacks"

[kokobil]

You are just being ridiculous now. A character with high spot can see a HIPS player. I know from expereince. There are area effect spells and other means of dealing with this including a potion know as invisibility. Perhaps if people are worried about this they should spen some more points on spot. To build a fighter/rogue/shadow dancer like you suggest would take quite some time and not as effective as you want us to believe.

Please....lets let this horse rest in peace.

*takes his favorite egoistic full of vanity look*

You are lucky I have no time to develop a character like that to prove you the effectiveness!

[Vanor]

Have you had any PvP fight with a shadow dancer so far?

PvP or CvC balance is a non-issue on Avlis. Always has been always will be. I've said it before and will say it again.

We do not balance things due to CvC issues, period.

I have seen people vanishing in front of my eyes just to snoop at my business, not say "Hello" to me, if that is not abuse then excuse me for thinking so!

I fail to see exactly how this is an abuse.

if Bioware had made the HIPS feat available at the 10th level of a shadow dancer, the class would have more value and would be worth following.

Then they would of changed the SD class from how it's writen in PnP. In PnP both 3.0 and 3.5 the SD gets HiPS at 1st lvl. HiPS is of itself only useful for someone with a high hide and move sliently skill.

The other ablities that the SD gets, makes it very useful to follow the class though to 10 lvl's. In fact some of the later ablities, like shadow evasion, shadow dase, and slipery mind are as if not more usefull then HiPS.

[Dirk Cutlass]

that wouldn't be fair at all. thats like saying "you can only improved knockdown 4 times a day" or some other arbritary number. I haven't seen any ABUSE of HiPS and so i'll say. let them continue until they start abusing it. if it aint broken, dont fix it.

I think HipS is of more concern in the hands of NPCs - particularly where Silk's involved. I'm just glad Jadiea's left now, otherwise I'd expect hundreds of undead monk assassins using this feat

Sorry, but this tactic is EXACTLY how I originally designed the Sereg's to act from the beginning. HiPS allows them to actually implement their actual combat strategy.

Sereg tactics are based upon deception and evasion.

I know - I'm with you Silk. I didn't say I didn't agree with it - I just meant I'd be terrified of it ... er. if you see what I mean - ICly of course.

[Starslayer_D]

You are just being ridiculous now. A character with high spot can see a HIPS player. I know from expereince. There are area effect spells and other means of dealing with this including a potion know as invisibility. Perhaps if people are worried about this they should spen some more points on spot. To build a fighter/rogue/shadow dancer like you suggest would take quite some time and not as effective as you want us to believe.

Please....lets let this horse rest in peace.

Unfortunately, not every character class has the skill points to burn on learning Spot/listen as crossclass skills.

And true seeing was crippled in this regard.. max bonus of +50, as opposed to skill + feats + items adding to way higher boni for stealth-based characters. (not talking about SD alone here. Due to stealth being the utimative way to hide from someone hostile, stealth characters have become quite a favorite.)

[Emprod]

Instead of people complaining that they get their asses handed to them by HIPS, I wish they'd go figure out ways to combat it. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of ways to neutralize a shadowdancer, but one of them is not "My Slow Dumb Blind level 1 solo character uses his balls to absorb the shadowdancers attacks"

We're slowly figuring those tactics out. Vs. Silk. While being simultaneously humiliated.

Mages seem to have the upper hand at it, of course.

[maelwydd]

You are just being ridiculous now. A character with high spot can see a HIPS player. I know from expereince. There are area effect spells and other means of dealing with this including a potion know as invisibility. Perhaps if people are worried about this they should spen some more points on spot. To build a fighter/rogue/shadow dancer like you suggest would take quite some time and not as effective as you want us to believe.

Please....lets let this horse rest in peace.

*takes his favorite egoistic full of vanity look*

You are lucky I have no time to develop a character like that to prove you the effectiveness!

My character is a Fighter/Rogue and now Shadow Dancer.

IF there is such a problem with this then can someone, anyone, step forward and name an instant when I have abused the system. Or if fact when any long standing player has abused this.

If there are no instances of the above then why is this still going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Live with it!

[Vanor]

Unfortunately, not every character class has the skill points to burn on learning Spot/listen as crossclass skills.

So? Does the fact that fighters can't cast spells also mean that something is wrong?

And true seeing was crippled in this regard...

crippled? Considering the fact that True Seeing should do Nothing when it comes to hidden PC's, how the hell can you claim that it's crippled?

TS should not according to PnP rules give a mage any ablity to see hidden PC's. It should not increase the spot, listen or anything else. It is completely useless against hidden PC's. So please tell me how it is crippled.

max bonus of +50, as opposed to skill + feats + items adding to way higher boni for stealth-based characters.

Oh god...

You are actually complaining about getting a +50 to a skill?

I have news for you. A stealthed based PC is going to be extreamly lucky to ever get a +50 to their skill. In fact I'd say it's nearly impossible for them to.

So you have a high lvl SD, with say 20 ranks in hide, +4 from dex, then maybe +15-+20 from items. That means they are still at a max of +44 to their hide roll, meaning that TS alone gives a mage a +6 point advantage in spotting them.

[Bear]

So you have a high lvl SD, with say 20 ranks in hide, +4 from dex, then maybe +15-+20 from items. That means they are still at a max of +44 to their hide roll, meaning that TS alone gives a mage a +6 point advantage in spotting them.

There are some spells that a ranger can cast that will give +10 to hide and move silently. There is another that will give +2-4 or something low.

One point that has been rather forgotten, is that the DC to spot a hidden creature in PnP rules .... is 20. Not 0 like NwW, but DC 20. In avlis it's a pure spot v. hide check. I actually couldn't convince Aloro of this until I showed him the exact page in the DMG.

The DMG also goes on to state that it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to spot a hidden creature in the dark unless you have some supernatural ability to see in dark, and then only to the limited range of your ability (i.e., 30-60 feet).

So....Aside from true seeing....In a very real sense hide has already been "nerfed" by subtracting 20 from the difficulty modifier, and by allowing creatures to spot you in the dark even if they do not have a supernatural ability to see in the dark.

I'm not complaining about this... I'm simply pointing out that the ability has been modified in a number of ways. Some good for non-rogues... some bad.

Bear

[Vergilius]

One point that has been rather forgotten, is that the DC to spot a hidden creature in PnP rules .... is 20. Not 0 like NwW, but DC 20. In avlis it's a pure spot v. hide check. I actually couldn't convince Aloro of this until I showed him the exact page in the DMG.

Post up the page number, Aloro isn't the only one curious to see where it says that. In every PNP game I've played, hide/spot was an opposed skill check.

[Bear]

One point that has been rather forgotten, is that the DC to spot a hidden creature in PnP rules .... is 20. Not 0 like NwW, but DC 20. In avlis it's a pure spot v. hide check. I actually couldn't convince Aloro of this until I showed him the exact page in the DMG.

Post up the page number, Aloro isn't the only one curious to see where it says that. In every PNP game I've played, hide/spot was an opposed skill check.

Ok, will do when I get home ... (about 6 hours). It took me forever to find the last time, even with the index....

Thanks,

Bear

[Jordicus]

A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it).

could this be what you are refering to?