Hide in Plain Sight

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:29 am

Remember Orl's rule number five... common sense is a rule.

People who are SDs want to be able to use it anywhere, anytime, but that violates rule number five. If you're eminating bright light or carrying a torch, there's no way in heck you could use this ability.

I'm pretty sure that by shadow they meant a real shadow, not a pathetic little blade-of-grass shadow, as that is obviously quite rediculous. The idea of the class is to operate in shadowy areas, not to be nancing about the desert hiding behind grains of sand. Look at the way the whole thing reads.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:41 am

Vanor wrote:It's a supernatual ablity. However it does not in any way, shape or form, change how well someone can hide. It won't make a SD undetectable, just allow them to enter stealth mode even though they're being watched.

All the more reason to script a huge minus to hide and move silent if a character has light emanating from their person... I don't care what supernatural ability you have going on, if your carrying a torch, or the equivalent of a torch, you can't hide from shit.

If you don't believe me, try it. Light up a coleman lantern and try to hide from one of your buddies with the thing in your hand. see what happens.

<edit> or look at it like this: A rogue would have to run around a corner to hide, or jump behind a rock, or something. The shadowdancer doesn't have to do that. Ok, point taken. But if the rogue runs around the corner with a torch in his hand, then tries to creep up on the monster and get a sneak attack with the torch still in his hand, the monster is going to see the rogue, plain and simple. Supernatural ability to hide is one thing, standing in front of someone with a torch in your hand is something else.

The light cantrip, or any other source of light coming off of a shadowdancer, should cancel stealth mode/HiPS and that's the end of it.

sinn · Post by **sinn** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:16 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by shadow they meant a real shadow, not a pathetic little blade-of-grass shadow, as that is obviously quite rediculous. .

ah come on... I have seen a shadowdancer hide in the shadow of flea! A jumping flea even!!

A blade of grass should be easy

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:22 am

If you don't believe me, try it. Light up a coleman lantern and try to hide from one of your buddies with the thing in your hand. see what happens.

And again, try to cast a fireball on your budddies and see them laugh at your delusional state! Please! Comparing something like this with RL???

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:45 am

Reading through this thread is giving me nightmares about the worst of moments in my literary theory and criticism course. Not sure anything of substance has been had here.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:03 am

Quiz001 wrote:
If you don't believe me, try it. Light up a coleman lantern and try to hide from one of your buddies with the thing in your hand. see what happens.
And again, try to cast a fireball on your budddies and see them laugh at your delusional state! Please! Comparing something like this with RL???

Regardless, the problem is that logic and reason aside a smart rogue/shadowdancer with the right equipment can kill monsters with little or no risk.

Now, if you can come up with a better counter argument to my previous post than "this is a fantasy game", I'm all ears.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:40 am

If they meant "You can hide anywhere other than the plane of light", then they would have said it. *sighs*

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:09 am

Regardless, the problem is that logic and reason aside a smart rogue/shadowdancer with the right equipment can kill monsters with little or no risk.

Now, if you can come up with a better counter argument to my previous post than "this is a fantasy game", I'm all ears.

Yes a smart rogue/shadowdancer with the right equipment can kill monsters, probably with the same amount of risk as a smart mage with the right equipment and the right spells, or any other class for that matter.

Logic and reason aside? You were the one comparing HiPS to RL weren't you?

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:07 am

At the core of the HIPS is the hide and move silently skills. All HIPS allows you to do is to, wait for it, Hide In Plain Sight. Any shadow within 10' allows the skill to be used. In my experiance, I usually HIPS before making contact with any NPC or PC. If I were to initiate an attack I need to dissengage before I can HIPS again. This dissengagement usually moves me about 10 to 20' away from the target. At this point your arguments are irrelevent because I can use any of the shadows, Any, now available.

Why is it so hard for people to accept as a skill (and therer is skill required to use the skill correctly) when people can use magic in the world!!!

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:24 am

Because aparently NWN implements it in a way that it's possible to HIPS in the middle of melee combat. Attack with sneak, HIPS, attack with sneak, HIPS... that was the argument raised by people. Experienced SD players / oponents who where attacked that way please comment.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:35 am

My experience is only with monsters here but you have to dissengage from combat other wise they still know you are there. The process is something like: -

Approach hiden (I sometimes get spotted here depending on how I am prepared(equipment/potions etc...)
Attack from hidden (If I have got close enough to get attack I usually get a couple of sneak attacks in)
Click away from monster dissengaging from combat (This is the tricky part. If I do not move far enough away from the monsters or I engage HIPS too quickly they still attack me as if they can see me)
HIPS (I find that ranged weapons are not affected at all by HIPS. The bandits for example are a piece of cake except for the ones with bows who can hit me no matter what I do unless I move into the viewing fog)
Reposition (I usually move to a flanking or behind position at this point. Not sure if it give a bonus but it feels right)
Back to the start (If too close to monsters they can usually detect me and I have to move further away)

My tactics are very much affected my the monsters and what I percieve to be their skill at detecting me. Some monsters are very unobservant so I can pretty much clean up without too much effort. Some have good skills and I usually only manage to get a couple of hits in before I get surronded and have to melee full on. Some I just can't use the skill with.

Edit: I feel that there is a greater requirement here for tactics and judgement then for a high level mage who Buffs up, destroy everything in their path, rests, rinse and repeats. You are vulnerable while using HIPS attack and fade tacktics and it is not invincible.

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:58 am

Experienced SD players / oponents who where attacked that way please comment

To what end?

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:54 pm

Because I personally have no SD char with lots of bonus to skill items. My rogue style char waits for assasin quest to go in... RP decission.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:51 pm

sly_1 wrote:All the more reason to script a huge minus to hide and move silent if a character has light emanating from their person...

The light cantrip, or any other source of light coming off of a shadowdancer, should cancel stealth mode/HiPS and that's the end of it.

I'm going to try and make this rather clear...

There is already a penlity given to any PC who uses stealth when they have an active light source

Is that clear enough? It already exists, as per the 3e rules.

Because aparently NWN implements it in a way that it's possible to HIPS in the middle of melee combat.

This is completely possible in PnP as well. You can disengage from combat and use HiPS in PnP, just like you can in NWN.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:26 pm

Vanor wrote:
Because aparently NWN implements it in a way that it's possible to HIPS in the middle of melee combat.
This is completely possible in PnP as well. You can disengage from combat and use HiPS in PnP, just like you can in NWN.

Well, the impression I am getting here is that folks are using HIPS while not disengageing from combat. I know NWN has a distinct in combat/not in combat detection. This is used to stop anyone from changeing armor in combat and other such things. HIPS seems to be quite useable while In Combat. It also seems to be very useable while In Melee, meaning someone is pounding on the SD right then, not a few feat away chasing them.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:48 pm

Depends on what your definition of 'in combat' is. The game engine will not allow you to engage F1 while in combat. You have to actively, dissengage (by clicking and making a new way point or by usiug the direction keys to dissengage).

There seems to be a lot of people having problems with this skill and for the wrong reasons. Is that because it is seen as too powerful (I think Timestop and Finger of Death are personally but what do I know) or are people looking at this blinkered.

Is there anyone out there who has had a bad experience against a character using HIPS?

How about stop trying to change what is not going to change and deal with it IC. How about realise it is one of many skills and abilities that are very difficult or even impossible to resist (Magic missile, Quivering Palm, Traps, Hold Person etc...).

Try playing the game, reacting to what happens in the game and only whining if someone is using the SD skill HIPS badly or in the wrong spirit Perhaps then it could be looked at. Moaning because too many people have it is pointless! Too many people are magic users in my opinion but that is my opinion and not one I want the team to change Avlis for!

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:56 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:HIPS seems to be quite useable while In Combat.

According to others, this isn't true. They have to dissengage from combat to triger HiPS.

If you were to go off of PnP rules, HiPS is a move equilvent action, so it would be completely possible to attack once, then use HiPS, in the same round. In fact, depending on the intitive rolls, a SD could do this without ever getting hit.

If they win intitive (or as we called it in one PnP group fish heads), they could attack once, with a sneak attack. Take a 5ft step, HiPS, then next round sneak attack again. With the NPC never getting an attack in, depending on it's ablity to figure out where the PC is of course.

Regarding the light cantrip -

The light cantrip has a range of touch. That means you can only cast it on someone you physically touch, and would require a touch attack. Neither of these are true in NWN.

Also light causes the object touched to light up, not the whole person. So if you touched someone, then some part of them would be lit up, not the whole person. By default this would be their shirt or armor. Which could be covered over by a cloak.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:00 pm

Has anyone tried this using light spell and HIPS?

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:10 pm

Quiz001 wrote:
Regardless, the problem is that logic and reason aside a smart rogue/shadowdancer with the right equipment can kill monsters with little or no risk.

Now, if you can come up with a better counter argument to my previous post than "this is a fantasy game", I'm all ears.
Yes a smart rogue/shadowdancer with the right equipment can kill monsters, probably with the same amount of risk as a smart mage with the right equipment and the right spells, or any other class for that matter.

Logic and reason aside? You were the one comparing HiPS to RL weren't you?

The difference is the mage will run out of spells, the fighter has to actually physically fight the monster (and natural 20's happen even if the fighter has an insane ac), etc. Only the rogue/shadowdancer can get unlimited sneak attacks against monsters with no risk and no rest. Again, I'm all ears for your argument why this should be the case when in PnP, the ability is far more limited. Besides, according to Vanor, if npc's could be scripted to cast light on the SD character, it should take care of the problem:

Vanor wrote:
sly_1 wrote:All the more reason to script a huge minus to hide and move silent if a character has light emanating from their person...

The light cantrip, or any other source of light coming off of a shadowdancer, should cancel stealth mode/HiPS and that's the end of it.
I'm going to try and make this rather clear...

There is already a penlity given to any PC who uses stealth when they have an active light source

Is that clear enough? It already exists, as per the 3e rules.

So wait, let me get this straight, you're saying that there is already a penalty given to any PC who uses stealth when they have an active light source?

Wrath: what players do is hotkey the attack button on a quickslot. It becomes a disengage button in combat. the next hotkey over is stealth mode. You attack, press the disengage key, then press the stealth key. It looks like the character is using hips in combat but in reality, they disengaged a split second before they used HiPS. Whether or not this is an exploit I have no idea.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:28 pm

Wrath: what players do is hotkey the attack button on a quickslot. It becomes a disengage button in combat. the next hotkey over is stealth mode. You attack, press the disengage key, then press the stealth key. It looks like the character is using hips in combat but in reality, they disengaged a split second before they used HiPS.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:52 pm

sly_1 wrote:Besides, according to Vanor, if npc's could be scripted to cast light on the SD character, it should take care of the problem:

This would do nothing at all. Other then lower the steath roll made by the SD for having an active light source. It could be in theory used on any PC that uses stealth. It however would do absoultly nothing to HiPS, it would only effect the hide ablity.

Whether or not this is an exploit I have no idea.

It's highly questionable if this is an exploit or not. As I pointed out doing the same thing is completely possible per 3e rules.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:58 pm

You said they would need to take a 5 foot step in PnP right? You cannot disengage from combat while you are standing still.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:02 pm

Vanor wrote:
Whether or not this is an exploit I have no idea.
It's highly questionable if this is an exploit or not. As I pointed out doing the same thing is completely possible per 3e rules.

in and of itself, that should not be questionable... however when you add in the bug with the 4-5 second delay before the opposing spot/listen skills kick in, then it could be exploited.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:10 pm

sly_1 wrote:Wrath: what players do is hotkey the attack button on a quickslot. It becomes a disengage button in combat. the next hotkey over is stealth mode. You attack, press the disengage key, then press the stealth key. It looks like the character is using hips in combat but in reality, they disengaged a split second before they used HiPS. Whether or not this is an exploit I have no idea.

There is a HUGE difference between disengage from melee combat and stop attacking. What you discribe is stop attacking. That is what I am pointing out.

The folks that actualy leave someones threatened area before engageing HIPS are doing things correctly. The folks that are using HIPS while still actively getting attacked by their opponent in melee are exploiting.

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:11 pm

The difference is the mage will run out of spells, the fighter has to actually physically fight the monster (and natural 20's happen even if the fighter has an insane ac), etc. Only the rogue/shadowdancer can get unlimited sneak attacks against monsters with no risk and no rest. Again, I'm all ears for your argument why this should be the case when in PnP, the ability is far more limited. Besides, according to Vanor, if npc's could be scripted to cast light on the SD character, it should take care of the problem:

Oh for gawds sake: 'A mage will run out of spells'? I'm just guessing here, but I'd say that's why they do more damage then.

'Sneak attacks against monsters with no risk'? I think that's already been clarified as untrue

'It should take care of the problem'? It's not a problem, it's an ability of the class, and IMHO not an unreasonable one, which of course is where the real problem lies - I think this issue is not going to be resolved here, or in however many threads are generated on it. I think all we can do is agree to differ.