Hide in Plain Sight

[Cath]

But there's nothing about having to "hide in said shadow".

There only has to be a shadow within 10 ft.

As I said this is getting ridiculous..
But to play along...
The DMG states that "she cannot however, hide in her own shadow"
Notice the "in her shadow"?

The rules for hide also states that you need cover or concealment to attempt a hide and for the SD the shadow is that cover.
It also states that you have to move to that hiding place and will get a penalty if doing so while trying to distract someone as you have to move fast.
That means that having a hiding place within reach isn't enough you have to actually get there too to hide.

Can we get real here?

[Vanor]

Yes, but to assume you can hide in said shadow without moving into it is really bordering on the ridiculous.

Notice the name of the ablity... Hide in Plane Sight. Notice the complete lack of anything about shadows in there? In fact the name very much states, that a SD can vanish before your very eyes.

It's a supernatual ablity. However it does not in any way, shape or form, change how well someone can hide. It won't make a SD undetectable, just allow them to enter stealth mode even though they're being watched.

[FunkOdyssey]

Let me word it another way:

As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

Why does that 10' rule exist? When is it applied? Given what has been said on this thread about blades of grass and such, can anyone even think of a scenario where the shadowdancer would not be within 10' of a shadow?

Would you have to teleport them into the plane of light or something for this rule to apply?

[Vanor]

The rules for hide also states that you need cover or concealment to attempt a hide and for the SD the shadow is that cover.

Actually, the rules quite clearly state, that a SD can hide, even if there is nothing to hide behind.

Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

It is a supernatural ablity, that means it is allowed to viloate both logic and physics.

[FunkOdyssey]

If you are in an open, barren desert, in broad daylight, you could use the microscopic shadow cast by a grain of sand then, since there would be grains of sand within 10'? lol... i love it

[Cath]

Notice the name of the ablity... Hide in Plane Sight

The description of this "Hide in plain sight" says "A shadowdancer can use the hide skill even while being observed"
No other exceptions mentioned at all.

And when reading the hide skill description it clearly states that you have to get to the hiding place not just be close to it.

The need for a shadow within reach and the comment about not being able to hide in her own shadow makes it very obvious to me that the shadow in question is to be used as the hiding place.

[FunkOdyssey]

The rule was apparently supposed to read, "the only location the shadowdancer cannot hide is in the Plane of Pure Light"

Must have been an oversight by the editors

[Bear]

Why does that 10' rule exist? When is it applied? Given what has been said on this thread about blades of grass and such, can anyone even think of a scenario where the shadowdancer would not be within 10' of a shadow?

Would you have to teleport them into the plane of light or something for this rule to apply?

The 10 foot rule exists b/c that is the extent of your relationship with the shadows. You use the power of shadows 50' away... just the ones that are close to you.

In my PnP game, the only time our SD couldn't hide was on another plane. There was perfect ambient light from all directions. No shadows to use.

I can also imagine a room bare of furniture with several light spells cast inside in varying directions. Essentially a room with light in all the corners, and light shinning above so that the only shadow is the SD's own shadow. No other shadows = no hide.

In sum.... not very often. BUT if you do think you've created such a space, and you think I'm there, send me a tell, and I'd totally RP there being no shadows with you.

Bear

[Bear]

Notice the name of the ablity... Hide in Plane Sight

The description of this "Hide in plain sight" says "A shadowdancer can use the hide skill even while being observed"
No other exceptions mentioned at all.

And when reading the hide skill description it clearly states that you have to get to the hiding place not just be close to it.

The need for a shadow within reach and the comment about not being able to hide in her own shadow makes it very obvious to me that the shadow in question is to be used as the hiding place.

I don't think that's right. They are different skills in some sense. Hide, and Hide in Plain sight.

Think of it this way, the Shadow Dancer is so in tune with the shadows, that he or she can use their power to hide before your very eyes. They don't need to move to the shadows...the power of the shadows (i.e., the ability to hide) comes to them.

Bear

[Vanor]

The need for a shadow within reach and the comment about not being able to hide in her own shadow makes it very obvious to me that the shadow in question is to be used as the hiding place.

That's fine, but that is your interpertiation of the rules, which means it is an opinion and nothing else.

However, agree or dissagree on that issue, it doesn't matter in the least. This is not something we can do a thing about, even if we wanted to. We looked, and there is absoultly nothing that can be done script wise to alter how HiPS works.

Even if there were, it's unlikely we'd change it. We do not alter the ablities of classes, without compelling reasons to do so, something that has yet to come out of any of these discussions.

If you are in an open, barren desert, in broad daylight, you could use the microscopic shadow cast by a grain of sand then, since there would be grains of sand within 10'?

You find that hard to accept, in a world with giant flying lizards, who breath fire, corpses that walk around, some of which cast magical spells. Being able to bring the dead back to life by reading a piece of paper. Weapons that burst into flame, but the steal never melts, and the fire doesn't burn the person holding it. People who can summon dragons or other creatures from thin air. People who can turn into dragons, or bears, or creatures made of pure air...

[FunkOdyssey]

Awesome... so the sky is the limit with this stuff. The shadowdancer could also bypass the "cannot hide in your own shadow" part of the rule by scratching his head. Then he can hide in the shadow cast by his dandruff when it falls off. lol

[Vanor]

Think of it this way, the Shadow Dancer is so in tune with the shadows, that he or she can use their power to hide before your very eyes.

Also in PnP a higher lvl Shadow Dancer, can actually enter shadows, and use them to travel to another shadow some distance away.

[Vanor]

The shadowdancer could also bypass the "cannot hide in your own shadow" part of the rule by scratching his head.

If you can't make a contrubition to this, then don't bother posting at all. Start a thread in the R&R boards and go to town. But keep the scarasm out of this thread.

That said, this thread is pointless in the extream. We will not alter how HiPS works, period. Even if we wanted to, it can't be done.

[FunkOdyssey]

Its alright Vanor, I'm finished. I can embrace just about any idea, no matter how absurd it is, if the team wants me to.

So no worries... I can dig it.

[marauder]

I think this is starting to fall into the realm of "the spirit of the rule" Small shadows from blades of grass or a twig on the ground are not what was meant by shadow. Sure technically they are...but use some common sense here guys...

[Cath]

I think this is starting to fall into the realm of "the spirit of the rule" Small shadows from blades of grass or a twig on the ground are not what was meant by shadow. Sure technically they are...but use some common sense here guys...

Thank you.
But I have a feeling that winning the argument is more important than making sense.
I am leaving this too as reason seems to have left a long time ago...

[Vanor]

Sure technically they are...but use some common sense here guys...

Common sense would apply if this was a natural ablity, which it is not. It is a supernatural ablity. That means the laws of nature do not apply.

Saying that the shadow from a blade of grass is unrealistic and there for not enough, is no different then saying that the ablity to change into a dragon is unrealistic and should not be allowed. Or casting spells, or the dead walking, ect...

D&D is about magic, and what we think of as realistic or common sense does not always apply.

Perhaps the HiPS ablity, allows the SD to blind everyone looking at them for a moment, so they can dissapear. Perhaps they can make that shadow grow large enough to hide in. Perhaps they slip into the very shadow itself.

Every argument made here so far, does not have the PnP rules to support it, and could just as easily apply to every other supernatural, or magical ablity in D&D. So why should HiPS be covered under different rules then a Monks diamond soul ablity?

So... If someone wants to argue this point, then please do so in context of all other supernatual and magical ablities that exist. Proved logical reasons for them that don't violate the laws of nature.

And again, no matter what someone's personal opinion about HiPS is, how much shadow is needed, if you need to enter the shadow or not, ect... Is a moot point, because it's not something we can change.

[marauder]

I am not saying it is realistic...just that the creator of the rules might not have envisioned the shadow from a blade of grass as counting. If you feel differently fine. In my world where I am DM I would not alow it. Others might. I just feel like its pushing things too far for me, but thats my opinion.

[Vanor]

I am not saying it is realistic...just that the creator of the rules might not have envisioned the shadow from a blade of grass as counting.

Granted, but we have no way of knowing that. In fact I'd say that all things considered, it does make sense sence we are dealing with a supernatural ablity.

A normal rogue, could enter a shadow and disspear, hell someone without a single point in hide could do that... If the shadow is deep and dark enough. If this was a matter of entering a shadow large enough to hide the person, then why is it a supernatural ablity?

Honestly we can't change this, even if we wanted to. But I'd be more then willing to discuss it from a PnP standpoint.

[marauder]

I always figurd it was called supernatural so things like dispel magic or a no-magic zone would not remove the abilty from the shadowdancer. Thats just my opinion and I have no evidence to back it up.

When I play Pnp I always interpreted the HiPS ability as blending in perfectly with the shadow or somehow using the power of shadows to hide the PC. Thus my vision uses the shadow and thus requires a decent enough shadow or one withing reason. Of course I am there to make the final decision and also set the rules so thats a rather moot point.

[Vanor]

I always figurd it was called supernatural so things like dispel magic or a no-magic zone would not remove the abilty from the shadowdancer.

Ok, I guess it would depend on how you view the ablity in general. IMO, HiPS is an instantanious ablity. It doesn't keep you hidden, it just allows you to hide in situations that a normal rogue couldn't.

So you use it, and tender stealth mode... At that point, HiPS is no longer a factor, but rather you are under all the normal rules for using the hide skill.

[marauder]

Thats how I have always interpreted it anyways

[sly_1]

Vanor I think he was talking about the PnP rules for HiPS. It requires a shadow within 10 ft if Wrath's post is correct.

Yep It does require a shadow with in 10 ft of the SD, in order for them to use HiPS.

However it does not say anything else. It makes no statement about entering said shadow, the size of the shadow, how dark the shadow must be, ect...

The rules only state, a shadow with in 10 feet.

Casting light on a SD would in fact create more shadows, as everything near them would now cast shadows, in 360 deg's....

I guess that this is one of those grey areas that's up to a dm's interpretation of the rules. The way I interpret HiPS based on the DMG description, the shadowdancer uses the shadows to conceal himself. If a person is himself emanating light for 20 feet, the shadow he is trying to conceal himself inside of can't physically occupy the same space as his body.

Then again, by a strict interetation of the rules, a shadowdancer could hide *anywhere*. Think about it... a grain of sand casts a shadow, however miniscule. So saying something like "The rules only state, a shadow with in 10 feet." could mean a shadowdancer can use hide in plain sight at high noon while standing in the middle of a barren dessert with absolutely nothing casting a shadow other than the sand underneath his feet.

I doubt this is what was intended for the class, but hey, if a DM wants to give a certain class an advantage thats his/her perogotive

Personally, I think a fair dm doesn't allow players to use the word of the rules to violate the spirit of them. As for a shadowdancer using a shadow created by light emanating from himself to hide, I'm not sure whether or not that's one of those cases, but then again, I'm not a dm.

[Tyrion77]

heh well your clothes would put shadows on your skin wouldn't they? and they're not acctually "you" so it's not your own shadow your trying to hide in.

[Starslayer_D]

Ok... my 2cc.
I think a shadowdancer can use any shadow large enouh to cover him. even if he has to stand very still and straight, or lay down to have that condition apply.
Then here comes the magic: He doesn't has to contort himself, instead he draws up teh sufficiently larger shadow to conceil himself. Even if that shadow is up to 10 feet away. The shadow moves at his beg and call.
But he couldn't hide in the shadow of a sheet of paper drifting on the wind between him and the sun. It's too small to be sufficient.


At least this is how I would interpret the SD ability as DM in my PnP game.