Quicken Spell+Haste: NWN vrs PnP 3.5e

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:29 pm

It came up over beer...

"NWN is broken as I can't cast three spells a round."

Actually NWN is broken if you can cast more than 1 spell per round without the quicken spell feat and it seems a few details of the PnP rules for the feat quicken spell were not followed.

Haste in PHB 3.5e specifically excludes that you can cast a second spell (or perform a second action) it only gives you an extra attack, a AC dodge bonus, enhanced movement and a reflex save bonus. So having haste should not give an extra spell casting ability.

Quicken spell (the metamagic feat) is not usable by bards or sorcerers. Yes read that again...they can not use them in PnP because they must use a full round action to cast a spell with a metamagic feat anyway and since quicken spell allows you to cast it as a free action then this the effect would be lost. The feat can not be applied to sorcerer, bard, or spotaneously cast cleric or druid(?) spells.

Only people who must prepare spells in advance can cast them quickened.

So Bards can not use the feats "Silent Spell" and "Quicken Spell" and Sorcerers can not use the feat "Quicken Spell." You could in principle take the feats but you could not use them. It would be easier to just say not takable frankly.

But under no circumstances can or should you be able to cast 3 spells in one round.

Sorcerers & Bards should also take extra time to cast any spell with metamagic enhancement (for bards this is not a critical consideration realy). This is one of the advantages of being a wizard that is not so obvious in the game, but it is there.

EDIT: correct a few incorrect, misremembered or unclear statements

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:18 pm

The point is that NWN uses the 3.0 D&D ruleset and haste definitely allows the caster to cast a second spell in the same round. Haste gives the target an additional partial action per round and it can be used to either cast spells, attack or whatever. You are right about the 3.5 version but that doesn't apply here. For the record, haste in AD&D 2nd edition didn't allow the target to cast more spells per round either.

About metamagic, i'm not too sure about how it works in 3.5 but in 3.0 a sorcerer or bard can use metamagic just fine, the only problem is that his spells would need a full action to be cast, not an additional round. Not sure about what the Player's handbook says about this right now but this is what Tome & Blood says about the matter. You are right about quicken spell, though. It's not that bards and sorcerers can't use it, it's that it would be utterly pointless for them (they would need more time to cast a quickened spell than a not quickened one).

About casting three spells per round (using haste and quickened/autoquickened spells) i have serious doubts... some folks say it's possible, some that it isn't (i am speaking about 3.0, of course). I don't really know, it's too cheesy but when reading the rules carefully it actually seems possible. Can't quote anything right now, perhaps later.

EDIT: Fixed a mistake, heh.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:25 pm

All DnD 3.0 handbook:

Quicken Spell: The feat allows to cast a spell as free action

Haste: gives an additional partial action.

Castinga spell: Standard action for a 1 action spell

Mage partial action: Casting a spell, spell must have casting time of one action or less.

Thus, if hasetend, and with a quick spell memorised, a mage can take the following actions in a round:

1 free actiom, 1 partional action, 1 standard action, and 1 move equivalent action.

3 spells cast, and mage moves out of danger zone, too.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:02 pm

Not sure if this is relevant or useful, but as an interesting aside, Orleron and Ceardan had hasted mages casting 2 spells a round in Avlis PnP, which is 3.0E based just like NwN Avlis

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:16 am

See title, I am talking about 3.5e.

Also the wizard/cleric/druid can do this, a sorcerer/bard can not. Infact even hasted a sorcerer/bard can only cast a single spell per round if it modified using a metamagic feat since applying the metamagic feat makes casting the spell a full round action and thus negates all other concerns. The partial action you gain from the haste is lost due to the metamagic modification.

So under 3e a wizard/cleric/druid can cast three spells per round but a sorcerer/bard can cast at most 2 (one normal one from haste).

Unless the description of the quicken spell feat has changed from 3e to 3.5e.

It seems in this (again) it is too bad that the rule set from 3.5e was not used in NWN.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:37 pm

Third edition was barely out when they started development on this game though, so they couldn't have used 3.5 edition.

jekyl81 · Post by **jekyl81** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:34 pm

mortzestus wrote:The point is that NWN uses the 3.0 D&D ruleset and haste definitely allows the caster to cast a second spell in the same round. Haste gives the target an additional partial action per round and it can be used to either cast spells, attack or whatever. You are right about the 3.5 version but that doesn't apply here. For the record, haste in AD&D 2nd edition didn't allow the target to cast more spells per round either.

About metamagic, i'm not too sure about how it works in 3.5 but in 3.0 a sorcerer or bard can use metamagic just fine, the only problem is that his spells would need a full action to be cast, not an additional round. Not sure about what the Player's handbook says about this right now but this is what Tome & Blood says about the matter. You are right about quicken spell, though. It's not that bards and sorcerers can't use it, it's that it would be utterly pointless for them (they would need more time to cast a quickened spell than a not quickened one).

About casting three spells per round (using haste and quickened/autoquickened spells) i have serious doubts... some folks say it's possible, some that it isn't (i am speaking about 3.0, of course). I don't really know, it's too cheesy but when reading the rules carefully it actually seems possible. Can't quote anything right now, perhaps later.
EDIT: Fixed a mistake, heh.

well now, i havfe played a sorcerer on a difrent server at lv 20 with a charisma of 34, and the server was updated to HoTu 1.62.

with those in mind i can do 3 spells in one round and it only takes haste to do it, but it seems that there is a drawback to doing so, you can do all the spells you can in that time you are hasted , but when you try to cast haste again when it wears out, you will get the haste but not the benefits of it to casting spells.

that is a pretty big setback for a sorc that is dedicated to using only avocation spells, and as such take a lot of considering when and at what point in the combat do you want to use it (if you want to use it at al)
i have come to see that this "penalty" can be really deadly to a sorc who depends on the haste giving you the possibility to cast the 3 spells per round and sley your advasary (if a well made melee char my sorc will most likely be dead before i can cast all 3 spells, more sence anyway to just cast something that will hurt and last a longer time, as extended or empowered spells).

Does this help at all?