The Shadowdancer Epidemic

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:43 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:
TheElvenKing wrote:
Titanium Dragon wrote:TEK, those shadow abilities ARE what SDs are all about. If you don't want to be associated with shadow powers IC, its too late - you already are.
They are a part of the class, not all of it. People may associate my character with them, but it doesn't mean he's about to run around summoning shadows at will - it's all about choice.
They have a strong link with shadows and trickery.

Someone said this on IRC:

"If you were taking it for RP reasons, why would you worry if you got grandfathered in and simply had to progress as you planned to anyway? Its only the people who only took it for HiPS and evasion who complain."

That is highly accusatory, to be sure, but really: if you only took it for HiPS and evasion, then you took it for the wrong reason, yes?

I don't appreciate your implication here, but in the end I really don't give a shit what you think. If it is really important to you to watch the login screens and see who is taking what class, then you are playing for the wrong reasons. I have no idea what level Vence or Sh'lieulias are, and I don't care in the least. It's the quality of play that I'm interested in and from what I've seen that has been quite good.

Actually, I refer to my earlier statement. Being grandfathered in or not, I do not like the idea of forcing players to progress a certain way, period. It is their character to play, not yours... I trust them to make the effort to play them to the best of their abilities, and if they don't THEN someone from the Team can step in.

EDIT: And once again something mentioned in IRC makes its way to the forums to attack another player's integrity... funny how it's always the same people doing it, isn't it?

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:47 am

Hey! It wasn't me who said it!

And I edited it out after consideration.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:55 am

Jordicus wrote:enough accusations..

this is no longer a productive discussion once that line gets crossed.

if you have a positive suggestion as to how to possibly improve the HIPS concept, then please add your contribution.

if all you're going to do is accuse others of being metagamers or powergamers or having poor IC reasons for their choices, then you need to stop and go do something else.

Finally! Thank you, hopefully third time said is a charm!

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:05 am

As a matter of interest, I just repeated a server check to see what classes were on (not something I normally do btw):

Mikona - 17 online - 0 shadowdancers
Wilderness - 16 online- 0 shadowdancers
Elysia - 6 online - 0 shadowdancers

Is HiPS so good even the server can't see them?

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:07 am

TEK has a very valid point about forcing players who have already taken the SD class into taking so many levels of SD. It simply should not be done.

Telling people how they should RP and how they have to choose their levels, it is one of those things that I don't want to see on Avlis. I have said before that I don't approve of people who would take just 1 level of SD. However, I won't call for changes that would stop the (hopefully) few who would do this. HIPS is a core part of the class. Trying to move it to a later level is akin to giving fighters the martial weapon proficiency at lvl 3 instead of lvl 1, making it so mages and clerics can't cast spells until lvl 5 etc or so rangers don't get favored enemy at lvl 1.

I would be all for making the quest to qualify for the quest harder and longer. but changes to the PnP class I would be very much against.

While I don't like people who would only take 1 lvl of SD, the truth is that people can come up with IC reasons for anything. And they don't even need to be that far from real life reality. I have a friend who decided that Aerospace Engineering wasn't for him after his second year of university. He decided to switch schools and majors. Now he's an English major with a Minor in Math. Does the fact that he stopped persuing the engineering degree erase the fact that he "gained the levels equivalent with 2nd year engineering". No. He still retains the knowledge he gained from his two years as an engineering student. Does a character who takes up shadowdancing but decides it isn't for them forget everything they learned from the trade. No.
Do I want to see this kind of reasoning. NO. At least not in abundance. However, my point is, IC reasons can be created, and RPed. The moment we start forcing others to RP their characters how we say, telling them how they must level and assign their skills we lend credibilty to those people out there who accuse Avlis of "RP elitism". I can live with this feeling in the NWN community, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT TRUE. We play this game for fun, NOT to force our views on others.

If you don't like people with just 1 lvl of SD then just don't play with them. It is that simple.

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:19 am

Entropy - thanks for that post - I agree 100% on it. My rogue is about to level, and I feel I've been put in a position that I won't feel comfortable making him a SD (which was my plan originally). I do feel that if I make him an SD it will now be to the detriment of his roleplaying with the other players here, so I'm probably going to end up taking him down a completely unrelated route. This is a shame, but like you said it's all about fun, and if my char is going to be snubbed by 'elitist' attitudes further down the line, I feel I'll have to change him simply to play with the rest of the people here, less fun, maybe, but better than no fun at all.....

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:23 am

Quiz001 wrote:Entropy - thanks for that post - I agree 100% on it. My rogue is about to level, and I feel I've been put in a position that I won't feel comfortable making him a SD (which was my plan originally). I do feel that if I make him an SD it will now be to the detriment of his roleplaying with the other players here, so I'm probably going to end up taking him down a completely unrelated route. This is a shame, but like you said it's all about fun, and if my char is going to be snubbed by 'elitist' attitudes further down the line, I feel I'll have to change him simply to play with the rest of the people here, less fun, maybe, but better than no fun at all.....

Quiz, take the class you want to play and enjoy it - if you feel snubbed by others for doing something you wanted to have fun with, send me a PM or a 'tell'... I'll RP with you anytime.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:28 am

My rogue is about to level, and I feel I've been put in a position that I won't feel comfortable making him a SD (which was my plan originally). I do feel that if I make him an SD it will now be to the detriment of his roleplaying with the other players here, so I'm probably going to end up taking him down a completely unrelated route.

Why would you be discouraged? I haven't heard a single negative comment from anyone about serious shadowdancers.

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:36 am

Why would you be discouraged? I haven't heard a single negative comment from anyone about serious shadowdancers

Lol!

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:36 am

FunkOdyssey wrote:
My rogue is about to level, and I feel I've been put in a position that I won't feel comfortable making him a SD (which was my plan originally). I do feel that if I make him an SD it will now be to the detriment of his roleplaying with the other players here, so I'm probably going to end up taking him down a completely unrelated route.
Why would you be discouraged? I haven't heard a single negative comment from anyone about serious shadowdancers.

From yours and others posts however, he can infer that serious shadowdancers are only those from levels 7 to 10...

What about a few high level mages and sorcerers that only have a few levels in rogue? Are their characters any less viable or serious? I can think of at least three characters in that position, and their players are people I respect immensely. Not once have I ever sat and thought 'cheese' about them...

Quiz001 · Post by **Quiz001** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:47 am

From yours and others posts however, he can infer that serious shadowdancers are only those from levels 7 to 10...

Exactly.

Btw thanks for the offer, Elvenking

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:48 am

I have yet to share my full and actual opinions on this topic, and I am not going to either... some things are better left unsaid.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:21 am

TheElvenKing wrote: Please, ditch the 'I care about Avlis' pretenses and get to the core of the matter - HiPS is a powerful skill in CvC conflict and people are getting their feathers ruffled for getting smacked down by characters using this skill when they previously wouldn't be. The way I see it, every player and character on Avlis gets the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. You play the character and/or skill in a fun and interesting manner, good for you and I wish you the best. However, if you play and level the character to solely kick ass for CvC reasons then that is a shame, because Avlis is so much more that that.

You want me to stop talking about HiPS? Then lets get the old TS back too. After all, it was only after much griping that it got taken down, and I'm advocating it being taken down further. Who is it who is for and against this?

I enjoy being accused of trying to aid myself when I am simulatenously talking about scaling back TS. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Maybe we should ask for GIMS to be changed back too?

Post by **tindertwiggy** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:41 am

:arrow::arrow: Th

s thr

d h

s s

ck

d s

nc

p

g

2

Purchase your secret decoder ring today! Only $19.95 + S&H!

Post by **tindertwiggy** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:44 am

Your friendly neighborhood Mikon would like to take the time to remind you:

Diamond · Post by **Diamond** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:52 am

man I can't believe this thread made it to 9 pages in a day.. glad I didn't read all of the posts too...

Post by **tindertwiggy** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:55 am

read the first page or two if you care two. Nothing much beyond that that isn't redundant beyond page two.

_Wake_ · Post by **_Wake_** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:01 am

tindertwiggy wrote::arrow::arrow: Th s thr d h s s ck d s nc p g 2

Purchase your secret decoder ring today! Only $19.95 + S&H!

lol S&H! I was gonna get my HIPS Waders on and come in for a look

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:04 am

Can we make it ten pages in a day? That would be a feat indeed.

Lynx · Post by **Lynx** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:43 am

I'm a rogue, and I'm against hips being gained at lvl 1, the fact is, these people get infinite sneak attacks, there is NO way to counter hips, got 60 spot? doesn't matter, the SD will just press hide and disappear again, as I understand it it takes a few seconds to start the spot/listen checks again, so they actually have a invincible button right there. and I find this extremely cheesy, low-lvl chars who run around hiding/appearing in front of people.

but on the other hand, implementing this would wreck the game for a lot of people, of course they like hips, it's great! taking it away from them seems very anal, I think this should have been done before SD came along

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:52 am

Well, solution's simple. Bring back the old TS as TD said. Hell, bring back the Isaac's as well. Then we can all go away from this topic and not be annoyed that some things are made 'balanced' and some are not.

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:19 pm

Just as a matter of interest I know of a world that is currently scripting a hak to move HiPS back to level 5. They are moving Paladins Immunity to Fear and the ability to use Holy Avenger weapons to level 5 also.

And to throw in a spanner, it is clear (to me) from Biowares version of the Shadowdancer that they had 2 very distinct types in mind.

1) Your rogue type who would use HiPS as an extension of their hide skill ie non-magical ability of the class, and;

2) The magic user who would focus on the supernatural aka magical traits of the class; summoning, dazing etc.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:56 pm

Pharik wrote:Just as a matter of interest I know of a world that is currently scripting a hak to move HiPS back to level 5.

That in theory could be done, but it may or may not work here. The staff is looking into this, but has yet to make any sort of decision.

Don't wory though, we're not going to nerf HiPS or anything else like that.

For the record, my and I believe a large number of staff members have an issue with people who take SD, solely for the sake of getting HiPS at lvl 1, and nothing else.

There will be no cap on how many people can take it, there will be no changes to how HiPS works in of itself.

Once again, no Player has the right, or authorty to question the actions of another player. That is something only a DM can do, no one else.

At least one of them has gained three levels since they became a shadowdancer, Jordicus, and by a month from now the cat will have long since left the bag.

So what? There is no preset rate at which someone must take levels, and the Staff, who are the only ones who can tell someone what they must do, will not make such a statement.

You all need to get the hell off this kick of bashing other PC's for what you think they are doing. You don't know, so shut the hell up about it.

Also for the record.

Shadow Dancers are not half or part undead.
Shadow Dancers do not worship or otherwise have some special spirtual connection to shadows.
True Seeing, will not ever be able to see though HiPS, because they are still hiding.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:46 pm

eNTrOpY wrote:HIPS is a core part of the class. Trying to move it to a later level is akin to giving fighters the martial weapon proficiency at lvl 3 instead of lvl 1, making it so mages and clerics can't cast spells until lvl 5 etc or so rangers don't get favored enemy at lvl 1.

I do not agree, Entrophy...

it's more like giving fighters WEAPON SPECIALISATION (a true and significant figher-only thing, unlike the prificiency they share with barbarians, paladins etc) at level 4 instead of one, making people put a serious chunk on fighter instead of 1 measly level, or SHAPE CHANGE (a true and significant druid-only skill) at level 5.

Nearly all classes get more significant class-abilities as they grow in that class. All except the SD, who's lvl 1 ability outshines everything he gets afterwards, and arguably the monk (WIS AC-bonus at lvl 1) and paladin (CHA save-bonus at lvl 1). And it seems from posts that many DO consider the pala1-sorc19 or the monk1-cleric/druid19 combo a "prone to be the result of meta-gaming" thing.

edit: irrelevant

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:51 pm

It's not absolutely necessary to do hard coding too. If coding is difficult, you can always choose as Team to tell players not to use HiPS until SD lvl 4. No need to (re)move the ability even. Just like oyu tell them not to use IGMS or change into red wyrmlings.

Good thinking there Khaelindra, hadn't even thought of that possibility

The World of Avlis

The Shadowdancer Epidemic

mhm