The Shadowdancer Epidemic
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- Titanium Dragon
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Ah, so you LIKE paladin 1/sorcerer 19 builds?
Shadowdancer 1/2/Rouge (or ranger) x builds are just as bad.
I can think of an IC reason for chain-killing people, looting them dry, ect. Just because you CAN think of an IC reason doesn't mean you should.
Shadowdancer 1/2/Rouge (or ranger) x builds are just as bad.
I can think of an IC reason for chain-killing people, looting them dry, ect. Just because you CAN think of an IC reason doesn't mean you should.
Gilkin> ouch. how often do you roll a 20?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
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Why the hostility and vulgarity? That really does not lend itself to a constructive discussion. Please try to remain civil for everyone's sake.Ziopoth wrote:Guess what, it's a fucking game, you don't like, stop fucking playing. You don't like my character or it's build TOUGH SHIT, play your own fucking character. Grow the fuck up learn to deal with it or get the fuck out.
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This is not the forum in which to throw shit at each other. If you want to rant about someone's character or someone's attitude towards the game, take it to the Rants and Raves Forum.
This is a forum for CONSTRUCTIVE discussion not squabbling and name calling.
Funk: Now, the problem with your suggestion is that you've swung things the other way. The other PRCs get something at lvl 1. Your change gives nothing to SD's at lvl 1. If you want to attempt to "balance" the class, it should actually be a balance and not a shift to the other end of the scale right?
This is a forum for CONSTRUCTIVE discussion not squabbling and name calling.
Funk: Now, the problem with your suggestion is that you've swung things the other way. The other PRCs get something at lvl 1. Your change gives nothing to SD's at lvl 1. If you want to attempt to "balance" the class, it should actually be a balance and not a shift to the other end of the scale right?
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Hmmm, as a player who has focused on creating a stealth character from day one, the level of frustration I get reading through this thread pisses me off to no end.
Who the fuck are any of you to tell me how to play my chosen character and how they level? There's only one judge, jury and executioner on Avlis, and that is the Team. If I've played my character badly, then I expect them to smack me down for it. If I've metagamed my character, I expect to hear about it. What I do see in this thread are alot of players overly concerned with how someone else is playing their character.
Where is the thread crying out about the imbalances of high level clerics running around fighting the war, simply because they are superior CvC builds? Where is the thread crying out about how a combat feat like Expertise is a broken and cheesed feat when used by a caster while casting? These are all topics that have been raised before, and yet died since those they most benefit also happen to be some of the forum's most prolific contributors.
As a Shadowdancer progresses in levels, not only do they gain feats that are redundant with those a rogue gets, they also gain the ability to start summoning creatures. Ever think that perhaps the person playing the character didn't want them to have the ability to summon something for IC reasons? Ever think that a player that has roleplayed a character who spends 99% of their Avlis time wandering around hidden, even though it means they miss alot of interaction and take forever to get anywhere, do so for IC reasons? Ever think that a character who spends that much time stealthed might one day learn to use the shadows to their advantage, fading and reappearing at will because of that comfort level?
Please, ditch the 'I care about Avlis' pretenses and get to the core of the matter - HiPS is a powerful skill in CvC conflict and people are getting their feathers ruffled for getting smacked down by characters using this skill when they previously wouldn't be. The way I see it, every player and character on Avlis gets the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. You play the character and/or skill in a fun and interesting manner, good for you and I wish you the best. However, if you play and level the character to solely kick ass for CvC reasons then that is a shame, because Avlis is so much more that that.
Who the fuck are any of you to tell me how to play my chosen character and how they level? There's only one judge, jury and executioner on Avlis, and that is the Team. If I've played my character badly, then I expect them to smack me down for it. If I've metagamed my character, I expect to hear about it. What I do see in this thread are alot of players overly concerned with how someone else is playing their character.
Where is the thread crying out about the imbalances of high level clerics running around fighting the war, simply because they are superior CvC builds? Where is the thread crying out about how a combat feat like Expertise is a broken and cheesed feat when used by a caster while casting? These are all topics that have been raised before, and yet died since those they most benefit also happen to be some of the forum's most prolific contributors.
As a Shadowdancer progresses in levels, not only do they gain feats that are redundant with those a rogue gets, they also gain the ability to start summoning creatures. Ever think that perhaps the person playing the character didn't want them to have the ability to summon something for IC reasons? Ever think that a player that has roleplayed a character who spends 99% of their Avlis time wandering around hidden, even though it means they miss alot of interaction and take forever to get anywhere, do so for IC reasons? Ever think that a character who spends that much time stealthed might one day learn to use the shadows to their advantage, fading and reappearing at will because of that comfort level?
Please, ditch the 'I care about Avlis' pretenses and get to the core of the matter - HiPS is a powerful skill in CvC conflict and people are getting their feathers ruffled for getting smacked down by characters using this skill when they previously wouldn't be. The way I see it, every player and character on Avlis gets the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. You play the character and/or skill in a fun and interesting manner, good for you and I wish you the best. However, if you play and level the character to solely kick ass for CvC reasons then that is a shame, because Avlis is so much more that that.
dougnoel wrote:Q: But...
A: No.
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Thank you Funk for the consideration. I now feel like I'm playing with my friends again. I'll also think about ways to help this if you think HiPS at 1st level kills the game for you...FunkOdyssey wrote:Revised suggestion, after consideration of the plight of existing shadowdancers:
FunkOdyssey wrote:My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:
- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team
- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability
- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.
Existing shadowdancers below the new requisite level to gain HIPS (7-10 range) would be "grandfathered in", and retain the HIPS ability. However, they would need to achieve this new requisite level of shadowdancer over the course of their adventuring career (sometime before level 40).
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Oh, and for the record, I'm not in favour of "balancing" this class. I am however in favour of people taking more than 1 lvl in the PRC.
I will however, offer constructive suggestions to any suggested changes posted by Funk and others.
And I'm Canadian so it is spelt favour and not favor in my book for anyone who tries to correct my spelling
I will however, offer constructive suggestions to any suggested changes posted by Funk and others.
And I'm Canadian so it is spelt favour and not favor in my book for anyone who tries to correct my spelling

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Elvenking,
The core of the matter is as follows: The number of low-level shadowdancers on Avlis is too high and HIPS being given at level 1 was determined to be a cause. These views are not outrageous, unreasonable, or held by myself alone.
The core of the matter is as follows: The number of low-level shadowdancers on Avlis is too high and HIPS being given at level 1 was determined to be a cause. These views are not outrageous, unreasonable, or held by myself alone.
The Sveg wrote:I agree with Funk on this. There IS an epidemic.
Choraldances wrote:There is an overflow of SD's. Especially only ONE level of SD's.
And my suggested solution follows:Vergilius wrote:This SD discussion came up a few times before SOU and before the PrC was implemented. It wasn't this extensive, but the predictions have held true. People pointed out, we'd have an overabundance of shadowdancers. There are. People pointed out that a lot would take just one level in the class. There are.
There is no more or less to it than that.FunkOdyssey wrote:My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10, replaced by Darkvision and/or Uncanny Dodge at lvl 1. This will accomplish many significant things:
- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team
- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability
- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.
Existing shadowdancers below the new requisite level to gain HIPS (7-10 range) would be "grandfathered in", and retain the HIPS ability. However, they would need to achieve this new requisite level of shadowdancer over the course of their adventuring career (sometime before level 40).
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That's fine, but I don't agree with your suggested solution, plain and simple. I may have the opinion that the way Bioware implemented many features cut too many corners, or took odd liberties with the 3rd Edition rules; but you won't catch me telling others what levels, classes, feats or skills they should or should not take in order to play on Avlis. Some PrC's, like the RDD or the Champion of Torm, don't exist because there is no place in Avlissian history for them. However, if the Team has allowed the class then the onus is on the players to play or misplay them to the best of their ability; the former will get rewarded while the latter frowned upon.
I don't like characters loaded up with clerical levels running around the warzone buffed to shit looking to kick ass; but I sure as hell am not going to push for change since it is the Team's job to balance that out, not mine. If the player doing it is having fun and respecting the right of other players to do the same, then I'm all for it. Conversely, I like the fact that I can RP out my character being able to disappear at will and waited 20 levels to do it; it's my fun level you are talking about altering and I don't appreciate it.
I don't like characters loaded up with clerical levels running around the warzone buffed to shit looking to kick ass; but I sure as hell am not going to push for change since it is the Team's job to balance that out, not mine. If the player doing it is having fun and respecting the right of other players to do the same, then I'm all for it. Conversely, I like the fact that I can RP out my character being able to disappear at will and waited 20 levels to do it; it's my fun level you are talking about altering and I don't appreciate it.
dougnoel wrote:Q: But...
A: No.
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That is my best shot at solving the overabundance of low-level shadowdancers. Its not an attempt to rebalance classes against each other, or to change the HIPS ability, or to take it away from anyone. Please understand that.
I don't understand how my suggestion would affect you or your character adversely if it was implemented. Can you explain that to me so we can get on the same page?
I don't understand how my suggestion would affect you or your character adversely if it was implemented. Can you explain that to me so we can get on the same page?
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Because even with the 'grandfathering' of exisiting Shadowdancers, you are effectively setting up a situation where a player is told that they must level up in a particular way or to a certain level. Enforcing such structure takes away freedom of choice, and I for one am against that; basically, at that point it becomes a race to level to meet that base requirement and becomes detrimental to the spirit of Avlis.FunkOdyssey wrote:That is my best shot at solving the overabundance of low-level shadowdancers. Its not an attempt to rebalance classes against each other, or to change the HIPS ability, or to take it away from anyone. Please understand that.
I don't understand how my suggestion would affect you or your character adversely if it was implemented. Can you explain that to me so we can get on the same page?
Hell, if someone wants to use HiPS go right ahead - but if they don't have the ability to hide and/or move silently in order to make it effective the point becomes a non-issue. I took my first level in Shadowdancer because it was IC to do so and fun to RP out with people; I think Talin was among the first few on Avlis to get it. I may take a second level next, and a third after that; or I may run into another situation in game that will have me choosing something else. Point is, I'll choose what I want when I want to without having some artificial 'ceiling' hanging over my character's head. It is my time invested, my character and my RP that influences how I am regarded by the community, not the levels I have or have not taken with that character... or at least, I hope that is the situation.
dougnoel wrote:Q: But...
A: No.
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I can't speak for TEK but I can guess at some reasons for some people. Some have worked hard to achieve a SD like character. It meant taking feats that were of limited usefulness to get there perhaps. Now that they are there, the suggestion is made that it's too good and should be corrected. Imagine if I said there could be no fighter/clerics because clerics should be healers. If you want to be a F/C be a paladin (just an example). Some might not like that suggestion.FunkOdyssey wrote:That is my best shot at solving the overabundance of low-level shadowdancers. Its not an attempt to rebalance classes against each other, or to change the HIPS ability, or to take it away from anyone. Please understand that.
I don't understand how my suggestion would affect you or your character adversely if it was implemented. Can you explain that to me so we can get on the same page?
I suspect that your biggest issues isnt with people that worked hard to get to the SD class, spent scads of time hiding working on stealth IC, but some one that takes it as soon as they are capable? (I dont know what level that would be ...4th or 5th?) then continues to advance as a rogue or monk or what have you? Certainly if you had to be 20+ lvl to get it there would be few I assume.
So there is yet another suggestion, change the PrC so that the requirements are higher than those set in NWN say MS 18, H 20 Tum 15. or something similar. Then it would make more sense that these people could be the consumate steathly figure. Those who have already worked to achieve that would not lose anything. Those that really want to be that will continue to work on it, those that don't want to really be that stealthy might not thus reducing the number of SDers.
Bottom line is you cant make everyone happy. I certainly dont like the idea that a 16th lvl cleric can kill me with one spell, without getting close to me and possibly without me even knowing that they are going to do that. But I deal with it. For the time being as PC's we have to deal with things we dont like and trust the team to adjust if necessary.
If money it the root of all evil, I want to be a bad man!
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Yes, I did. Do I want to see a change? Yes. Do I want to see a change intentionally to piss off people who are shadowdancers? No.Bear wrote:Did you folks even stop and consider what impact this will have on the people who have spent months and months preparing for and roll playing this concept? I think Vergilius did, but otherwise it certainly doesn't appear so.Bear
Frankly, how many more posts on this matter are necessary? ARe players in authority to do anything about this? No. Are players the one that would code in any changes? No. Are players the ones who set the rules and arbitrate decisions on AVlis? No. A thread like this serves one purpose really: to alert the team to the fact that players feel this is a serious issue. It gives them a perspective of what people on BOTH sides of the fence feel, but as for final arbitration and solution, its completely up to them.
Really, thats what I posted on page two, the following 7 pages of posts have more than aptly proved this statement.Vergilius wrote:Ok, I've think we've beaten the Shadowdancer as a PrC enough. Oh, and I appreciate it if people wouldn't post loaded statements against the current SDs as that would frankly kill any kind of constructive dialogue.
FunkOdyssey wrote:Elvenking,
The core of the matter is as follows: The number of low-level shadowdancers on Avlis is too high and HIPS being given at level 1 was determined to be a cause. These views are not outrageous, unreasonable, or held by myself alone.
The Sveg wrote:I agree with Funk on this. There IS an epidemic.Choraldances wrote:There is an overflow of SD's. Especially only ONE level of SD's.And my suggested solution follows:Vergilius wrote:This SD discussion came up a few times before SOU and before the PrC was implemented. It wasn't this extensive, but the predictions have held true. People pointed out, we'd have an overabundance of shadowdancers. There are. People pointed out that a lot would take just one level in the class. There are.
There is no more or less to it than that.FunkOdyssey wrote:My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10, replaced by Darkvision and/or Uncanny Dodge at lvl 1. This will accomplish many significant things:
- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team
- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability
- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.
Existing shadowdancers below the new requisite level to gain HIPS (7-10 range) would be "grandfathered in", and retain the HIPS ability. However, they would need to achieve this new requisite level of shadowdancer over the course of their adventuring career (sometime before level 40).
Problem: Overflow of SD's.
Cause: HiPS is a great ability, and is available early on.
Solution #1: Re-Code shadow dancer class, so that HiPS is not available until later levels. Code changes so that SDs are awarded some ability at level 1. Code change such that existing PC?s are not impacted by change. Concerns with approach: (1) Is a departure from PnP rules which grants the ability at level 1; (2) Will upset a number of individuals who have been working toward class; (3) It is currently unknown whether we can code such a change. Especially a change that will impact future, but not present shadow dancers.
Solution #2: Make it more difficult to become a SD. This is done by: A) increasing the difficulty of the Quest; B) By making DM approval mandatory; or C) increasing the player level for individuals that can become SDs. Concerns: DMs don?t have time to approve concept for all new SDs. Increasing player level for qualifications is another departure from the PnP rules.
If the communities concern is really an overflow of SDs, it seems that the easiest and most balanced solution is to make the class more difficult to obtain by making the quest more difficult. This is, oddly, the only solution that will not require any change to the PnP rules.
Right now the SD Quest only requires 3 short trips. It can essentially be complete in under 2 hours. What if the quest was timed and required 3 months to complete? What if a character had to pay 1,000,000 gold to complete the quest? What if the quest required a bunch of rare items that are only available on server reset? What if the quest required you to do other quests and return the quest reward (i.e., complete Temple of Verossa Quest and return to me the Destruction Totem)?
I'm sure there are other ways to make the quest more difficult, thus decreasing the # of SDs in Avlis.
Bear
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<hijack>
</hijack>
http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_builds.htmlBioware wrote:There is something alluring about Munchkinism. What is Munchkinism you ask? To be a proper Munchkin, you need to be focused on one overwhelming goal: attaining Infinite Cosmic Power. Forget namby-pamby roleplaying. Forget realism. Forget game-balance destroying exploitation of the rules. You want a character so powerful that, in the words of a famous barbarian, "you drive your enemies before you amongst the lamentations of their women". Darn tootin'.
</hijack>
I recently started my first Avlis rogue after abandoning another pretty well-established non-magic char, and am already regretting the decision. I'm being made to feel that I'm walking on eggshells all the time with the amount of bitching going on about the class.
My overall impression here (which I've stated before) is that magic classes have way too many advantages over the others. A few days ago, a magic-user told me that his medium-level pure-magic char was in a CvC situation with around 5 much higher level chars - mostly of non-magic types. Before he got his rump (deservedly, IC) kicked, he took TWO of the higher levels with him, a totally ridiculous scenario. How does this relate to this discussion? Well, I think it's because with the rogue's SD PrC, a non-magic user finally has a chance to turn the tables on the otherwise indominable magic classes.... and they don't like it. I know the rogue class is not exactly the 'lovable' type to a lot of players here, but the lengths that have been gone to to foul them up is removing the 'fun' element almost totally. As an example: Let's look at the basement entry to the Canvas. One door - on the OUTSIDE it's an ordinary door with an ordinary lock, no indication that it's anything but a residence. On the inside, the SAME door becomes a key-only door in an area carefully designed to leave the rogue sitting in a cage for however long it takes for someone to show up on the server. Apart from the fact that such an entry door is ridiculous (If a rogue is good enough to break in, I'm sure he'd spot the fact that the door is screwed on the other side before allowing it to shut on him), the char is going to be hit for a good amount of non-play time if the server's not busy, either waiting or getting pissed-off and server-jumping and taking an hour hit that way. That's not fun, it's deliberate persecution and removal of play-quality.
God only knows what other crap my char is going to come across simply because he's a rogue.
I'm not sure what to do about him at the moment. I don't want to give him up after I already had to abandon Sion Tarras, but I do know I want to have FUN here, not get into protracted bitching sessions trying to defend a class.
My overall impression here (which I've stated before) is that magic classes have way too many advantages over the others. A few days ago, a magic-user told me that his medium-level pure-magic char was in a CvC situation with around 5 much higher level chars - mostly of non-magic types. Before he got his rump (deservedly, IC) kicked, he took TWO of the higher levels with him, a totally ridiculous scenario. How does this relate to this discussion? Well, I think it's because with the rogue's SD PrC, a non-magic user finally has a chance to turn the tables on the otherwise indominable magic classes.... and they don't like it. I know the rogue class is not exactly the 'lovable' type to a lot of players here, but the lengths that have been gone to to foul them up is removing the 'fun' element almost totally. As an example: Let's look at the basement entry to the Canvas. One door - on the OUTSIDE it's an ordinary door with an ordinary lock, no indication that it's anything but a residence. On the inside, the SAME door becomes a key-only door in an area carefully designed to leave the rogue sitting in a cage for however long it takes for someone to show up on the server. Apart from the fact that such an entry door is ridiculous (If a rogue is good enough to break in, I'm sure he'd spot the fact that the door is screwed on the other side before allowing it to shut on him), the char is going to be hit for a good amount of non-play time if the server's not busy, either waiting or getting pissed-off and server-jumping and taking an hour hit that way. That's not fun, it's deliberate persecution and removal of play-quality.
God only knows what other crap my char is going to come across simply because he's a rogue.
I'm not sure what to do about him at the moment. I don't want to give him up after I already had to abandon Sion Tarras, but I do know I want to have FUN here, not get into protracted bitching sessions trying to defend a class.
THIS IS NOT A FREE HAIRCUT
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i think a single big misconception in this thread is that all the players who currently have shadowdancer levels have no intention of taking more. even if you don't say in outright, Funk, it is strongly implied by yours and others comments.FunkOdyssey wrote:That is my best shot at solving the overabundance of low-level shadowdancers. Its not an attempt to rebalance classes against each other, or to change the HIPS ability, or to take it away from anyone. Please understand that.
I don't understand how my suggestion would affect you or your character adversely if it was implemented. Can you explain that to me so we can get on the same page?
the fact is, the shadowdancer quest only went live not that long ago. with the low XP levels that we have in Avlis, it's going to take those players a fair amount of time to conitnue taking additional levels of shadowdancer, let alone any other class. otherwise you are encouraging players to not level up when they could which is frowned upon, and you are encouraging them to spend their time powergaming and gaining XP so they can take additional SD levels..
give the players a break. if after another month, those same players have advanced in level and have not advanced their shadowdancer level, then complain about them metagaming/powergaming
You see things and you say, "Why?" But I dream things that never were and say, "Why not?" George Bernard Shaw
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They are a part of the class, not all of it. People may associate my character with them, but it doesn't mean he's about to run around summoning shadows at will - it's all about choice.Titanium Dragon wrote:TEK, those shadow abilities ARE what SDs are all about. If you don't want to be associated with shadow powers IC, its too late - you already are.
dougnoel wrote:Q: But...
A: No.
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They have a strong link with shadows and trickery.TheElvenKing wrote:They are a part of the class, not all of it. People may associate my character with them, but it doesn't mean he's about to run around summoning shadows at will - it's all about choice.Titanium Dragon wrote:TEK, those shadow abilities ARE what SDs are all about. If you don't want to be associated with shadow powers IC, its too late - you already are.
EDITED due to high flame content
Last edited by Titanium Dragon on Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gilkin> ouch. how often do you roll a 20?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
Cath> once every 20 rolls?
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enough accusations..
this is no longer a productive discussion once that line gets crossed.
if you have a positive suggestion as to how to possibly improve the HIPS concept, then please add your contribution.
if all you're going to do is accuse others of being metagamers or powergamers or having poor IC reasons for their choices, then you need to stop and go do something else.
this is no longer a productive discussion once that line gets crossed.
if you have a positive suggestion as to how to possibly improve the HIPS concept, then please add your contribution.
if all you're going to do is accuse others of being metagamers or powergamers or having poor IC reasons for their choices, then you need to stop and go do something else.
You see things and you say, "Why?" But I dream things that never were and say, "Why not?" George Bernard Shaw