The Shadowdancer Epidemic

Tyrion77 · Post by **Tyrion77** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:12 pm

nice!

sinn · Post by **sinn** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:20 pm

a great read.. this little thread here... lots of good points on BOTH sides of the issue.

my opinion is that IF we are trying to make Avlis class blanced then something should be done... IF we are not, then ah well! who cares about SDs..!

I have played on a large number of worlds... most of which are HC ropeplay worlds... Avlis by far has the largest number of CvC events of all the worlds I have played on... and since there is such a large number of CvC events.. the shadow dancers will always cause an certain amount of anger in people.

soloution? well I have none

how NWNs shadow dancer HiPs should work in my opinion.. at level 1 you have a 20% chance at using the skill, level 2 40%, level 3 60%... ect... OR make the abilty one useable 2 or 3 times a game hour

just my thoughts.. you all have fun now!

Tharliss · Post by **Tharliss** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:20 pm

terryrayc wrote:Hum, I like the SD class and as long as players are taking it IC rping reasons that is fine. What bothers me is seeing a ton of players with only 1 level in SD. They take that one level for the hips then move back to taking their normal class. That is just wrong.....that right there, if you ask me, kills all IC and RP reasons. If you are going to take the path of SD then take it. If all you are doing is taking 1 level for the skill then moving on...you just metagamed.

It's true that there are a number of characters out there with only 1 lvl of SD. But it's also true that the SD class was recently implemented. Many of the characters with SD now did not have the prereq's immediately and have had to take levels in other classes to get the feats and skills. Who's to say that these 1st lvl SD's won't eventually take more levels in that class?

I also disagree with the notion that once you become a SD, every level you earn after MUST be taken in SD until you max out. I have a fighter/rogue, and have been multiclassed since 2nd lvl. If I take a level in SD, how can anyone tell me that it's "wrong" to take another level in fighter, then one in rogue, THEN my 2nd level in SD? Multi-classing has always been IC as Zach wants to be proficient in multiple skills.

It could also be argued that it should be even more difficult to just whip thru all 10 lvl's of a prestige class. The skills are difficult and unique and examples of others that you could learn from are rare.

The point is, let's not start telling people how to rp or progress their characters or try to "balance" the classes. Worry about your own character and just have fun.

My second point is that many people are talking about how SD's with "uber-gear" for hiding and MS have such a huge advantage. Zach has great gear, probably one of the best equipped characters on Avlis. But if he puts on his "sneaky" gear, he loses valuable points in both Armor Class and Saves. Unfortunately, I can't wear my cloak of protection while I'm using my cloak of elvenkind, which leaves me MUCH more vulnerable in a fight. Believe me, if there was a way to do that, Zach would have figured it out.

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:27 pm

We tossed around ideas all morning on IRC.

One guy kept saying "But, how would you fix it?"

I think the best idea brought up was to not give HIPS to a shadowdancer until level 7.

Make them sacrifice SOMETHING to get it. Not just a third or second class, but SOMETHING.

A few d6 of sneaks, a few skillpoints, whatever.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:28 pm

My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

Another thing I want to note- this is not going to change the balance of classes. Shadowdancers would still get HIPS and would still be uber with it. All my suggestion would do is encourage and reward people who make a real investment in the class.

MorphlingROR · Post by **MorphlingROR** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:29 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

In my opinion Funk has a very good solution here. It would certainly stop the shadowdancer's plague from spreading further, and it wouldn't hurt those people who are actually getting it for IC reasons and not just for HiPS either.

4x4_Ender · Post by **4x4_Ender** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:29 pm

Zach has great gear, probably one of the best equipped characters on Avlis.

*laughs*

I HIGHLY doubt that. Vian, Tri'as, Timo, Damar, Roland?? The list goes on. When Avlis started, +3 items were falling from trees. I wasnt even around for that, but these characters have some rediculous stuff, let me tell you. Not that they dont deserve it.

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:30 pm

And declare an amnesty on people who then want to delevel and relevel without SD?

I think the best solution is to make it a thrice per day per level thing.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:31 pm

Fifty wrote:And declare an amnesty on people who then want to delevel and relevel without SD?

Just out of curiosty, why would someone want to delevel then relevel without taking Shadow Dancer again?

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:32 pm

4x4_Ender wrote:
Zach has great gear, probably one of the best equipped characters on Avlis.
*laughs*

I HIGHLY doubt that. Vian, Tri'as, Timo, Damar, Roland?? The list goes on. When Avlis started, +3 items were falling from trees. I wasnt even around for that, but these characters have some rediculous stuff, let me tell you. Not that they dont deserve it.

he did say one of, and have you even seen Zachs stuff for sale?

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:33 pm

Vanor wrote:
Fifty wrote:And declare an amnesty on people who then want to delevel and relevel without SD?
Just out of curiosty, why would someone want to delevel then relevel without taking Shadow Dancer again?

Incase they don't want to be an SD without HIPS straight away.

I am just suggesting this as a way of avoiding complaints.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:34 pm

I don't think anyone would want to do that, since it would make it obvious that they were only in it for HIPS in the first place.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:38 pm

Given that SD's with HiPS can circumvent gear requirements(they can hide before the spot check goes in, get their opponent flat footed and sneak, rinse and repeat and you have a character that a melee class can never target correctly, and essentially is unkillable outside of flinging thousands of AoE spells at random) and that out of all the skills gained by the SD the most powerful is HiPS, they really should set the level back it's gained by 3-4 levels.

Given the implementation of hide/HiPS in general is a bit flawed in NWN, in addition to the excessively easy to perform sneak attacks it turns something already a bit questionable in CvC balance to something utterly and terribly broken.

Further, I don't see why it should be such an easy investment to take 1 level of shadowdancer. At most 1 level of SD is sacrificing 1d6 of sneak damage(which isn't really the case since if it's taken as a secondary class, it wouldn't eat up the odd numbered level required to reduce sneak damage), 2 skill points, and 1 bonus feat.(Again a stretch)

The time/commitment required for this is far less both in IC terms, and game mechanics terms. I know that personally I've sacrificed a lot with my character to get his ONE level of Weapon Master which doesn't even confer any practical benefit at all(ki strike once/day, that's it.) I'm willing to bet that he's made more sacrifices in terms of xp, feats, skills, spells, equipment(given what he went through to get this level), than 90% of the shadowdancers on Avlis(which might not seem much at first glance, but there's at least a dozen) have done for their HiPS. Should I then, as part of this "investment" and "IC effort" thing get to start WM at level 5, where the tangible benefits start coming in?

Think on it.

So yes, my two cents, throw back the level required to obtain HiPS to make the sacrifices for taking the PrC more in line with other classes.

4x4_Ender · Post by **4x4_Ender** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:39 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:I don't think anyone would want to do that, since it would make it obvious that they were only in it for HIPS in the first place.

Flush 'em out!!

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:55 pm

My solution for shadowdancers: make SD turnable by clerics as undead of HD/levels shadowdancer... *evil grin*

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:18 pm

This makes it sound like SD'ers rule the world, that there is no protection from them and they cannot be defeated.

I think this is far from the truth. Fact is Mages and clerics are still the single most powerful group at high level. A high lvl mage with TS can still see all but those rogue/SD that are maxed out with good equipment.

I do agree that HIPS should be a per day use thing, maybe increasing to unlimited at 10th lvl or something like that. Say 3/day 1st, 4 3rd...etc. But I have no idea if that could be scripted or how difficult it could be.

Fortunately this discussion doesnt affect me IC at all. I would estimate it would take ~6months or so to be able to take the PrC so by then everything would be settled. In the meantime I will still try to hid in the shadows even though I cant

.

Nice work Funk, 5 pages in less than 12 hrs...a record?

Tharliss · Post by **Tharliss** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:26 pm

Fifty wrote:
4x4_Ender wrote:
Zach has great gear, probably one of the best equipped characters on Avlis.
*laughs*

I HIGHLY doubt that. Vian, Tri'as, Timo, Damar, Roland?? The list goes on. When Avlis started, +3 items were falling from trees. I wasnt even around for that, but these characters have some rediculous stuff, let me tell you. Not that they dont deserve it.
he did say one of, and have you even seen Zachs stuff for sale?

Thanks Fifty, I wasn't trying to compare Zach's gear to anyone, let alone those listed. Tri'as!?!? I doubt Zach would have anything useful to him. Hell, Zach was thrilled to even talk to Tri'as once, although he did try his sales pitch.

My point is that in order for SD's to even use their stealth items in a tough battle, it would be at the expense of some great defensive equipment.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:26 pm

Nice work Funk, 5 pages in less than 12 hrs...a record?

I think it might be, lol

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:32 pm

I don't like knockdown. It's not written up as done in the book. There is no discipline skill in PnP, and I should be able to cast spells and attack at a disadvantage when I'm down. I think it makes people with this ability too powerful in CvC conflict.

I don't like all those Bigsby's spells... It's not written up as done in the book. There is no daze effect in the PnP version .... it lasts way longer than the PnP version... There are no immunity to knockdown items in the game to resist it. I think it makes the mages too powerful in CvC conflict.

I don't like the Ranger class. It's totally front loaded, by giving you ambidexterity and two weapon fighting and a prefered enemy and + hide and move silently in the forest at 1st level. I think too many people are taking just one level for these abilities alone. I think it makes the rangers too powerful in CvC conflict.

I don't like expertise for Mages. They shouldn't get the benefit of this ability while casting. I think it makes them too powerful in CvC conflict.

Let's call it straight -- We are only really worried about these problems (and HiPS), because of the way it impacts CvC conflict. None of these are issues if you: A) Assume people have IC reasons for taking HIPS; and B) Just play your own flipping character.

You want to raise an issue with HiPS, and the shadow dancer prestige class? This should have been done MONTHS ago. As it stands people have dedicated skill points, and feats that are otherwise redundant, and most importantly IC time to justify taking the class...

Trust that over the past 6 months+ people have spent a fair amount of time and energy and dreams thinking about why their character would be a SD, or why they would just have one level in the class.... Trust your fellow players and go play the game.

Bear

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:38 pm

Amen Bear!

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:39 pm

Do you really want to go that route with this discussion? I can play too-

I don't like Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, its an unbalancing spell in CvC..

oh what do you know, Avlis removed it.

I don't like HIPS, its an unbalancing ability in CvC...

.....fill in the blank.

I think my suggestion was a constructive answer to the Shadowdancer problem without going as far as some people would like to.

Tharliss · Post by **Tharliss** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:40 pm

Bear wrote:...Trust your fellow players and go play the game.

Bear

Bear currently leads in the "Best Post of the Thread" voting.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:43 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:I don't like Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, its an unbalancing spell in CvC..

oh what do you know, Avlis removed it.

sorry but we did not remove it. after much debate we adjusted the spell so that it has a max number of missles based on caster level.

Sunscream · Post by **Sunscream** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:44 pm

Jordicus wrote:
FunkOdyssey wrote:I don't like Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, its an unbalancing spell in CvC..

oh what do you know, Avlis removed it.
sorry but we did not remove it. after much debate we adjusted the spell so that it has a max number of missles based on caster level.

You removed the unbalancing part of it.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:47 pm

If you guys are serious about playing shadowdancers then why does this suggestion scare you? Its not like the HIPS ability is going anywhere, you would just get it at a more appropriate level.