The Shadowdancer Epidemic

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:47 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
thats a silly argument ... the PrC wasnt available so whose going to do it?
Your right, the PrC was not available before SoU, and thus nobody's character concepts included supernatural connections with shadows. So how are they staying true to concept again or whatever your justification was for a million people taking SD levels?

ok Emrys hasnt took it ..but probably will ..but then he's been hiding in shadows for almost a year now, long before SoU. Im saying the same as Vanor I think .. stealth based characters should take if they want to. I see the argument that too many louses up the world, but I dont think this is a case of players taking the class to have the metagame aspect, but because they play stealthy characters.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:48 pm

If I read the arguments here correctly:

Stealth characters -> naturally become shadowdancers.

That's like saying that every mage who casts necromancy spells should become a palemaster or every dwarf should become a dwarven defender. Nawww.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:48 pm

I see the argument that too many louses up the world, but I dont think this is a case of players taking the class to have the metagame aspect, but because they play stealthy characters.

I suppose its just a grand coincidence then that Avlis has a million shadowdancers and a nerfed true seeing that allows them to pretty much dominate everything.

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:50 pm

and if they all fought for M'Chek you'd be very happy and never have started the thread ... right?

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:53 pm

The real motivation for this thread came when I looked at the Mikona server status a couple days ago.

There were 11 players on and 4 of them had the shadowdancer PrC. Thats when I resolved myself to sounding the epidemic alarm on this prestige class.

Post by **Urizen** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Being on the recieving end of HIPS, from my experince, is frustrating. I dont mind getting knocked down, finger of deathed, sneak attacked by a single arrow for 75 hp, charmed, or whatever. But using HIPS over and over when you are in melee combat with someone. GAH! Steath, attack, steath, attack, steath, attack, steath, attack, steath, attack. Why this should happen in melee is beyond me. Any chance we this could be changed so that you cant use HIPS if youre in an opponents threatened area?

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Ok, I've think we've beaten the Shadowdancer as a PrC enough.

Now, how do people in general feel about people who take just one level of shadowdancer and completely bunk the class in favor of rogue? In the thread I cited above, the team said they'd be bothered by such conduct, perhaps to the point of asking people to relevel, but of course, that thread was ages ago, before SOU had even come out. Has the time since then brought new reflections to this? What are the reflections of others? Oh, and I appreciate it if people wouldn't post loaded statements against the current SDs as that would frankly kill any kind of constructive dialogue.

Just food for thought, i'm curious to hear what people think.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:59 pm

From a balance perspective, consider this: In PnP, an SD must be within 10 feet or so of a shadow to use HIPS (iirc). OK, so a lvl 1 mage, with the "light" cantrip, can defeat HiPS 100% of the time. Cast light on the sd and there' wont be any shadows within the SD's range for him to hide with. I know this thread isn't about balance, but a mid to high level rogue with 1 level of SD can take out creatures *way* over his normal ability, which I doubt is what anyone wants.

The problem with NWN's implementation is that the engine doesn't account for shadows, so HiPS can be used anytime, any place. If it was closer to PnP, the class would be a lot harder to play, but as it is, it's quite easy to get a sneak attack, hide, rinse, wash, repeat.

There's just no way to defeat HiPS in NWN outside of an insane spot/listen skill, and only those with magical aid could ever attain the levels needed to combat a really well equipped rogue shadowdancer type...

It's prolly impossible, but if you could script it so that hips doesn't work outdoors during the daytime, or that any lightsource coming from the character negated HiPS (or at the very least gave a huge minus to hide and move silent, like -60 or so), it'd be a lot more "balanced" a class, and a heluva lot closer to PnP, for that matter

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 pm

Although the balance issue is not central to this thread, do not dismiss it. Avlis HAS been tweaked before to balance classes that were dominating everything in sight.

Exhibit A- Resting Limitations put on areas to hinder mages.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:16 pm

Tangleroot wrote:Stealth characters -> naturally become shadowdancers.

Not naturally, and not a automatic given. But Stealth based PC's are a subclass in a way. You can be a rogue or ranger without focusing on stealth.

That's like saying that every mage who casts necromancy spells should become a palemaster or every dwarf should become a dwarven defender.

No, it's like saying that ever mage that focuses on necro spells would most likely take or at least consider becoming a palemaster, or every dwarf that focuses on a defensive style, could or would likely become a dwarven defender.

However, resting limits were not put into effect to hinder just mages. We have a standard procedure about which area's allow and which don't allow resting. It has nothing to do with a given class.

Rest limits do however effect mages much more then any other class.

The real question here, isn't if SD's are to powerful, or if there's to many of them, but if people are taking them for valid IC reasons or not.

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:18 pm

just did quick survey to see if Funk is right atm .. results ...
Elysia characters 10 , SD zero
Wilderness characters 5, SD zero
Mikona characters 6, SD 1
Le'Or 2, zero
Deglos 2, zero
Ferrell 1, zero

on-line community total 25, no. of SD's 1

Conclusion .. crisis? what crisis?

Tahni · Post by **Tahni** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:19 pm

Also you have to take into account how many sneaking bastards play on Avlis

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:20 pm

I'm all for stealth chars taking SD, but too often it's people that never cared alot about stealth before hips came, when it took some effort, I wanna take the class as well, I always invested in stealth, but now it seems kind of a tainted and unnatural pick, I only wish there were more perks for going all out with a pure class rogue, high lvl rogue is just rubbish withouth a SD lvl now it seems

Tyrion77 · Post by **Tyrion77** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:28 pm

*shrug* i don't rate the class.. beyond Hips at least anyway and i'm damned if i'm going to take only 1-3 level's or SD no way.. 10 at least.. if i take an SD level i'm going to "be" an sd not a rogue with the ability to melt into shadows

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:29 pm

couple of clarification points

1) as Verg pointed out, True Seeing was adjusted way before Shadowdancers even existed on Avlis

2) being a Shadowdancer DOES NOT improve your hiding ability. it only changes the fact that you can do it in plain sight. so in order to be an effective Shadowdancer, you already need to have a good amount of points invested in Hide/Move Silent. In which case, you are already taking advantage of the tweaked True Seeing spell

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:31 pm

Vergilius wrote:Now, how do people in general feel about people who take just one level of shadowdancer and completely bunk the class in favor of rogue? In the thread I cited above, the team said they'd be bothered by such conduct, perhaps to the point of asking people to relevel, but of course, that thread was ages ago, before SOU had even come out.

Just a note, I said I would be bothered and would relevel people, and that was my opinion back when I was on the team. However, I'm not a team member anymore, just a player like the rest of you. So, if you want the team's current opinion, you'll have to ask the current members.

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:33 pm

but hiding in plain sight itself is banans, that virtually eliminates spot/listen checks, if a sd fails hiding? np, just press the button! and it means alot not having to practically area trans before you can hide from someone

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:34 pm

*shrugs*

The "problem" (in so far as there is one) isn't really with the HiPS feat, but with the balance between Hiding and Spotting skills. Many people are able to get their Hide/MS rolls in a range beyond the Spot/Listen rolls of other players OR monsters, making 1 level of shadowdancer a very powerful thing for them. If you don't have the gear, and monsters see you half the time you try to hide, then HiPS isn't so attractive.

As is being discussed in the True Seeing thread (the corollary of this complaint), balancing the gear for that is not an easy task. SoU and HotU introduced a lot of abilities which weren't taken into account when Avlis was designed. Avlis withstood the weapon and armor enhancement spells fairly well. Greater Sanctuary would have been another big source of complaints if it actually worked like it was supposed to. HiPS mileage varies depending on your gear.

There is an "action-mode constant" or some switch like that in NWN that apparently limits a PCs ability to use certain feats in certain situations, like Expertise while casting spells, etc. Dunno how it might affect HiPS-- could try testing it.

I'm not really worried though. If it gets really out of hand, I'd expect some quick fix like a potion that gives you the old True Sight for a turn or so. Still, there's a certain ring to "The Shadowdancer Epidemic." Maybe we should pass it on to R.A. Salvatore as a book idea?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:36 pm

Pekarion wrote: but now it seems kind of a tainted and unnatural pick

Don't let something like that cause you not to do what's right for your PC.

I only wish there were more perks for going all out with a pure class rogue, high lvl rogue is just rubbish withouth a SD lvl now it seems

You lose out on a few dice of sneak attack, plus other rogue only things, like the lv 10+ special ablities... So I wouldn't say that a high lvl rogue without SD is by any means rubbish. Especially if the rogue wasn't specialized in stealth to begin with.

As far as what Ent said. I tend to agree. If you plan on taking only 1 or 2 lvls of SD, simply for the HiPS ablity, and I found out about it. I'd consider deleveling you.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:36 pm

I just learned something interesting. Out of the entire Ravens organization, a group highly praised for their RP of stealthy characters, I was told that no more than 2% (or one member) took shadowdancer.

Kinda defeats the idea that stealthy = shadowdancer doesnt it? Things that make you go hmm...

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:46 pm

From the perspective of someone who is now a Shadowdancer: -

How many PrC are out there and what options whould a rogue have?

I get spoted all the time by other PC's and I have max skills and some nice stuff!

So what if someone takes 1 level of SD. Why not point fingers those that take 1 level of fighter to get extra feats or 1 lvel or Ranger to use 2 weapons or 1 level of rogue for Snaeak attack. I have seen them all!

Why is True Seeing broken? Apparently it is not ment to have any affect on those hiding using non magic (passive magic) means.

Geeze! Magic users can rest every 4 hours, don't need compoents, and don't have to worry about the mortality rate that mages are ment to suffer!

Why does everyone try and screw over the rogues!

Perhaps I should start making a list and actually using my skills against some of you interfering mages !!!!

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:49 pm

My opinion on this is not specific to shadowdancer at all.

Any of these probably need some looking at if they prove true.
- I think any PrC that is picked up for the abilities instead of the RP is bad.
- I think any PrC is overused if its number is even 1/5th of the folks who have all the prereqs.
- I think the holywarriors should have precidence in implementation over the others. These have been mentioned as needing to be part of avlis since far before a NWN PrC option existed.
- Same goes for the white necromancer, but I think that is still a pipe dream.
- I also think that all PrCs should require just as much IC dedication and work as holywarriors. Meaning PrCs require a guild membership, approval by that guild to become one, quests from that guild to prove worthyness, then only can the automated quest even be taken.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:49 pm

I received a suggestion from someone who wished to remain anonymous that taking ANY PrC should require DM approval first, before the PC can take the scripted quest.

- I think any PrC is overused if its number is even 1/5th of the folks who have all the prereqs.

This is the true standard by which the overpopulation of shadowdancers can be easily seen. How many of those who meet the prerequisites have taken it?

I also think that all PrCs should require just as much IC dedication and work as holywarriors. Meaning PrCs require a guild membership, approval by that guild to become one, quests from that guild to prove worthyness, then only can the automated quest even be taken.

Thats a very good suggestion as well.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:54 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:I just learned something interesting. Out of the entire Ravens organization, a group highly praised for their RP of stealthy characters, I was told that no more than 2% (or one member) took shadowdancer.

Kinda defeats the idea that stealthy = shadowdancer doesnt it? Things that make you go hmm...

That's not right. You got your facts wrong. There is more than one shadowdancer in that organization.

Bear

Ziopoth · Post by **Ziopoth** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:57 pm

How about the biggest thing that has been stated over and over and over.

You worry about your character and I'll worry about mine. Let the staff handle the rest!

The World of Avlis

The Shadowdancer Epidemic

mhm

Re: mhm