The Shadowdancer Epidemic

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:49 pm

If you are wondering why Avlis has the highest ratio of shadowdancers / non-SD's of any PW around, its because of the way we have changed True Seeing, and an automatic scripted quest for the PRC.

The True Seeing modification on Avlis turns a useful ability into one of the most powerful abilities in the game, on par with devastating critical or timestop. If you dispute that, you have not seen a high level SD in action. The automatic quest conspires with the awesome power of HIPS, allowing everyone and their mother to develop these supposedly rare and extraordinary supernatural abilities.

Under these circumstances, who would not pick up levels of Shadowdancer with a stealthy character? This "PrC" is fast becoming the default path of the Avlis rogue or ranger and I think its really lame. Unfortunately, I don't have any constructive suggestions at the moment, but hopefully people will start to awaken to this SD epidemic and steps will be taken to address it.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:06 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:an automatic scripted quest for the PRC.

This one I will have to dissagree with. Many PW's out there don't have any restriction what so ever on PrC's, so having a automated quest for one will not make more people take it, then if there were no restrictions.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:09 pm

All this True Seeing and Hide in Shadows and Hide in Plain Sight stuff is getting awfully complicated

But how much can any of this get changed? Its all very well talking theory, but can it actually be changed even if it was agreed "what was right"?

This is my wish list though (i.e. the ideal situation IMHO):
1) TS has a reduced and capped bonus to spot (to simulate the effect of seeing through magical bonuses to Hide)
2) Hide gets a much bigger penalty when there are no shadows (e.g. light levels too high). There is currently a penalty I believe, but I think it is quite small.
3) Hide in Plain Sight is not allowed if there are no shadows at all (e.g. light levels too high).

Is it even possible to check the "light level" at a location in NWN?

Ho-hum, probably not even possible I guess.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:11 pm

Vanor wrote:Many PW's out there don't have any restriction what so ever on PrC's, so having a automated quest for one will not make more people take it, then if there were no restrictions.

I said they work together to produce this epidemic, it is not either factor by itself. The way true seeing works on Avlis makes Shadowdancers much more desirable to play than they are on other worlds. Those worlds will not see mass numbers of Shadowdancers for that reason.

When a PC can get the PrC without having to impress a DM with their roleplaying of a supernatural connection with shadows, you've combined the extreme desirability of the class with easy access to it and the result is the developing SD epidemic.

Tyrion77 · Post by **Tyrion77** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:15 pm

bah! pure rogue all the way

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:16 pm

I quote myself.

Sickocrow wrote:I'll stop using TS when every shadow poofter stops sneaking everywhere. People sneaking all the time makes you very paranoid.

I had a case in the bugbear den up in NE m'chek. There was a shadowdancer character occasinly disappearing then reappearing. A few times said character drew groups of bugbear cheiftains to me.
Now. Having said that this person may not have realized I could see him most of the time. Since then.....well...

Sicko-

my two sense, combined with three others and a god given sixth.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:18 pm

How is that relevant to the epidemic?

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:20 pm

This seems to be going down the "balance" pathway (correct me if I'm wrong Funk). As has been said before there is no balance.

I suspect some take the class because IC it makes sense (they spend a large portion of their time in stealth, so eventually they learn to do it better than most). Others take it as it is seen as a way to gain an edge for a ranger/rogue over those that have spells.

And for the record yes I plan to take in it in my main char since he falls into the first class. However, by the time I can take it I may not want to

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:23 pm

This seems to be going down the "balance" pathway (correct me if I'm wrong Funk).

No, that is not the problem I'm addressing here. Balance is part of the cause, but the problem is there are way too many of these damn shadowdancers! A PrC is supposed to be a small subset of the classes that are candidates for it. SD's are coming out the friggen walls on Avlis.

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:24 pm

Why do you think that everyone with the spell/prayer TS is walking around with it going flat out?

Bingo!! You guessed it. It's because of SDers that sneak around all the goddamned time.

Before SDers became common I barely bothered to use the spell, unless something weird happened. Now I use it all the time.

Sicko-

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:24 pm

I think he's saying that being on the recieving end of SD treatment isnt nice and he doesnt like it... probably also what caused you to use the emotive title 'epidemic'. Since when did anyone argue that theres a wizard 'epidemic' or a druid 'epidemic', althought theres plenty of those too. I think its popular cos its new, and people go with it to stay true to the concept they had/have for their character. What you suggest is people take the PrC for the metagaming aspect ... and I think we are a better RP'ing community than that. Or at least I hope so.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:27 pm

people go with it to stay true to the concept they had/have for their character.

Really? I don't want to get into RP Nazi type stuff but how many of these SD's were making out with shadows, or making a connection to the plane of shadow, or worshipping shadows, or doing anything unusual with shadows before this PrC came out?

edit: furthermore, how many of them are even doing this type of stuff now that they have the PrC?

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:28 pm

viewtopic.php?t=14668&start=0

this was an interesting discussion from before SOU came out and before the PrC were ever instituted. Its more food for thought, it was written ages ago, have our opinions changed and if so how much?

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:30 pm

diddeecoy wrote:Since when did anyone argue that theres a wizard 'epidemic' or a druid 'epidemic', althought theres plenty of those too.

Not the same thing, druids and wizards are not prestige classes and as Funk has said, PrCs are not intended for large groups of individuals but for very few (prestige).

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:30 pm

I've had that feeling too...
When I first saw someone with that PrC it felt special and so right.
Now I've seen too many and that unique feeling is gone.

Point isn't metagaming or that any single character taking this class is wrong doing so but the picture as a whole doesn't look good.
As he said - the PrC should only be taken by a small percentage of the rogues and rangers as any other PrC - they are supposed to be unique and special not the norm as it is turning into.

Not sure something can or should be done but the magic of it is gone for me.

Brock Fanning · Post by **Brock Fanning** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:31 pm

I don't know, I think it's just that the 1st level of the PrC is really awesome. I can't pretend to tell the future, but I wouldn't think changing True Seeing again would deter many folks from taking this PrC.

As for solutions.. *shrugs* Maybe make the quest harder? (Spoken from complete ignorance as I've never even found the quest myself) This would be the easiest solution, as all we'd have to do is tell Aloro to do more work, and that's easy!

brock

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:34 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
people go with it to stay true to the concept they had/have for their character.
Really? I don't want to get into RP Nazi type stuff but how many of these SD's were making out with shadows, or making a connection to the plane of shadow, or worshipping shadows, or doing anything unusual with shadows before this PrC came out?

edit: furthermore, how many of them are even doing this type of stuff now that they have the PrC?

thats a silly argument ... the PrC wasnt available so whose going to do it? its a bit like saying druids should shape-shift before becoming a shapeshifter. I think rogues have been making use of shadows in stealth mode forever if that counts.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:36 pm

diddeecoy wrote:Since when did anyone argue that theres a wizard 'epidemic' or a druid 'epidemic', althought theres plenty of those too.

Druids and Wizards are core classes, not Prestige Classes. PrC's are supposed to be a focused refinement of a core class. If the bulk (75%+) of Rogues, Rangers and Monks... All who can take this PrC, then there is an issue to consider.

However Shadow Dancer is the natrual evloution of the stealth based character. If you're playing a PC who's into stealth, it makes a lot of sense to take the class.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:37 pm

One big issue is that Roleplaying doesn't preclude metagaming. You can do both at the same time. I'm sure every single SD has a good IC reason why they took the class. Most of them know better than to do otherwise. And honestly, there is nothing wrong with wanting to have a powerful PC, provided you RP through it, the big issue is when the world is flooded with these, when a great number of eligible classes decide to create an IC reason to take the class simply because its powerful.

I think the goal of Funk's discussion is not to nitpick at anyone that took the class, but to take a step back, look at the big picture and ask ourself, do we really want to see a world with this many Shadowdancers, whether they take just one level for the ability or they go the whole way?

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:38 pm

thats a silly argument ... the PrC wasnt available so whose going to do it?

Your right, the PrC was not available before SoU, and thus nobody's character concepts included supernatural connections with shadows. So how are they staying true to concept again or whatever your justification was for a million people taking SD levels?

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:39 pm

Vanor wrote:
diddeecoy wrote:Since when did anyone argue that theres a wizard 'epidemic' or a druid 'epidemic', althought theres plenty of those too.
Druids and Wizards are core classes, not Prestige Classes. PrC's are supposed to be a focused refinement of a core class. If the bulk (75%+) of Rogues, Rangers and Monks... All who can take this PrC, then there is an issue to consider.

However Shadow Dancer is the natrual evloution of the stealth based character. If you're playing a PC who's into stealth, it makes a lot of sense to take the class.

points taken about the distinction between core & prestige class ... but in the end we argue the same.. people take it because its IC to take it.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:41 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:Your right, the PrC was not available before SoU, and thus nobody's character concepts included supernatural connections with shadows.

And who's to say what a suppernatural connection to shadows is? Is living the life of someone who operates out of them most of the time enough? Do you have to pray to shadows, or worship some sort of shadow god?

No, leave RP out of this completely. No one here can truly comment on someone elses character concept and how well or poorly they played it out, or what choices they make down the road.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:41 pm

I think the goal of Funk's discussion is not to nitpick at anyone that took the class, but to take a step back, look at the big picture and ask ourself, do we really want to see a world with this many Shadowdancers, whether they take just one level for the ability or they go the whole way?

Yes, thank you Verg. That is the mission statement of this thread.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:44 pm

diddeecoy wrote:
thats a silly argument ... the PrC wasnt available so whose going to do it? its a bit like saying druids should shape-shift before becoming a shapeshifter. I think rogues have been making use of shadows in stealth mode forever if that counts.

*Cough cough*

diddeecoy · Post by **diddeecoy** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:45 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
thats a silly argument ... the PrC wasnt available so whose going to do it?
Your right, the PrC was not available before SoU, and thus nobody's character concepts included supernatural connections with shadows. So how are they staying true to concept again or whatever your justification was for a million people taking SD levels?

ok Emrys hasnt took it ..but probably will ..but then he's been hiding in shadows for almost a year now, long before SoU. Im saying the same as Vanor I think .. stealth based characters should take if they want to. I see the argument that too many louses up the world, but I dont think this is a case of players taking the class to have the metagame aspect, but because they play stealthy characters.

The World of Avlis

The Shadowdancer Epidemic

The Shadowdancer Epidemic

Re: The Shadowdancer Epidemic