true seeing on avlis

Xeo · Post by **Xeo** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:25 pm

Well dont hate my spell caster! I dont have True seeing!
I cant opposite spell school Divinations spells.....

I tell you now i have so much fun trying to find people who are hiden then just casting a spell to see where they are

SHIT JUST GAVE MY WEAKNESS AWAY! LOL

But again i have so much fun trying to find them..

BTW Potions of true seeing is that a bad thing?

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:26 pm

A rouge/Shadowdancer attacked my lvl 21 sorcers. She had true sight on, and a spot of 48. She didnt see the sneaker, and this one faded back into the shadows after first blow on my char. My char stopped time, and casted a horried witling one the location where the sneaker was seen last, which ended the life for that one.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:35 pm

White-Raven wrote: She have a hide with normal battle gear of 62-63. The move silent is around 49. If i use max hide items, potions etc, I can reach 89 hide, but this isnt that useful, take of the +10 cloak of hide gives her anyway 88 hide.

This shows it is a limit how much hide can be boosted from gears and potions etc.

Compared to the 68 Spot of a lvl 26 mage (TS + Clairaudience) with staff, helm and amulet on... unless they're spending feats and skill points into maxing out Spot, they'll never see you.

But you should be able to get higher than that, without spending any feats on it.
29 from skill ranks (assuming maxed at lvl 26)
5 from dexterity
24 from Camouflage, Mass Camouflage and One with the Land
2 from Cat's Grace (average roll)
10 from Cloak
2 from Belt (buyable in Le'Or)
2 from Boots (buyable in Le'Or)
15 from Robe of Blending
10 from Midnight Airs

leads to a 99 Hide. Throw a couple of feats in (not even counting Epic Skill Focus!) and you'll crack 100. That's the upper limit of what could be reached at that level I think (though throw in an Epic skill focus and it jumps again).

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:37 pm

White-Raven wrote:A rouge/Shadowdancer attacked my lvl 21 sorcers. She had true sight on, and a spot of 48. She didnt see the sneaker, and this one faded back into the shadows after first blow on my char. My char stopped time, and casted a horried witling one the location where the sneaker was seen last, which ended the life for that one.

Hehehe.. advantage of having a sorceror.. in some ways so much less flexible than a wizard, but in some ways so much more flexible..

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:38 pm

No, it isnt possible for this lvl 29 char to come higher then 89. At 88 Hide, she adds a cloak +10, and still reaches 89 Hide, which is max. There is a cap of the amount of points from gear.

And i doubt there are many chars around that have such high hide, nor the number of lvl 26 mages.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:40 pm

White-Raven wrote:No, it isnt possible for this lvl 29 char to come higher then 89. At 88 Hide, she adds a cloak +10, and have 89 Hide, which is max.

Having all other gear you write of, is of no use, then the hide weakens her.

There's a maximum skill level of 89?
Or something isn't stacking?

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:43 pm

kombinat wrote:
White-Raven wrote: She have a hide with normal battle gear of 62-63. The move silent is around 49. If i use max hide items, potions etc, I can reach 89 hide, but this isnt that useful, take of the +10 cloak of hide gives her anyway 88 hide.

This shows it is a limit how much hide can be boosted from gears and potions etc.
Compared to the 68 Spot of a lvl 26 mage (TS + Clairaudience) with staff, helm and amulet on... unless they're spending feats and skill points into maxing out Spot, they'll never see you.

But you should be able to get higher than that, without spending any feats on it.
29 from skill ranks (assuming maxed at lvl 26)
5 from dexterity
24 from Camouflage, Mass Camouflage and One with the Land
2 from Cat's Grace (average roll)
10 from Cloak
2 from Belt (buyable in Le'Or)
2 from Boots (buyable in Le'Or)
15 from Robe of Blending
10 from Midnight Airs

leads to a 99 Hide. Throw a couple of feats in (not even counting Epic Skill Focus!) and you'll crack 100. That's the upper limit of what could be reached at that level I think (though throw in an Epic skill focus and it jumps again).

Again, why should the mage be able to find the one hiding?

The mage spends all their life learning magic not knowing the best hiding spots in an area, which floor surface is good for hiding tracks, which wood will crack, where the lighting is coming from, how to muffle noise, how to distract, how to use decoys.....

With 1 spell the entire point of this character (and if they are maxed at the skill and are also a Shadowdancer then that is their whole point and focus) is made pointless.

I think it should be the case that only a skilled character with good equipment, in a suitable location (i.e. bonus to spot and listen) and while actively searching should someone be able to locate someone who does not want to be found.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:43 pm

No, it isnt max, but there is a cap on the amount of skillpoints from gear. I tested outside avlis, and you can of course reach a lot higher with epic skill focus etc etc, and more points in the skills. But from gear you can only get a certain amount of boost.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:48 pm

I was on Hala last night for example, and relay on stealth, and be in a world that have untweaked True Sight seems pretty much pointless for rangers, rouges and shadopwdancers. If any cleric and mage CAN see you anytime, i see little point of playing one of those classes that foucs to be stealthy etc.

I like the way Avlis have true sight, and even if it was made higher, like 2.5-3xlvl, it still IS possible hide from mages, but you need to be trained and have gears. But most importent, it is possible to hide.

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:54 pm

maelwydd wrote:Again, why should the mage be able to find the one hiding?

The mage spends all their life learning magic not knowing the best hiding spots in an area, which floor surface is good for hiding tracks, which wood will crack, where the lighting is coming from, how to muffle noise, how to distract, how to use decoys.....

I'm not going to comment on whether a mage should be able to see the sneak or not, but I believe your logic is flawed. Why should they be able to spot them? Why should they be able to kill things? I mean they don't spend hours and hours training with using weapons. I guess it's magic ...

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:55 pm

Just for "fun" viewtopic.php?t=27537&highlight=

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:25 pm

White-Raven wrote:I like the way Avlis have true sight, and even if it was made higher, like 2.5-3xlvl, it still IS possible hide from mages, but you need to be trained and have gears. But most importent, it is possible to hide.

Raising the spot bonus given by True Seeing would all but kill hiding abilities for 99% of Avlis characters who rely on stealth. Green Raven is the exception - an epic level Ranger/Shadowdancer with spells that boost stealth capabilities AND gear that affords her some hefty bonuses.

If anything, the True Sight bonus needs to be tweaked, but downwards. Perhaps a bonus of 3/2 levels would be more appropriate. However, as I have said before there would also need to be an adjustment in the number of items that give a bonus to spot should True Seeing be changed. Even a potion that gives a temporary boost to spotting skills would be a start; either way, we need to make it fair for both sides of the debate.

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:57 pm

The argument that it shouldn't see "Non-magically hidden" people goes kaput when those people are using all kinds of magical gear (and spells like camoflauge, mass camoflauge, etc) to help them hide, doesn't it?

But really...this discussion is beat to hell. What TEK says above has pretty much been the consensus of everyone who's taken the time to think it over and weigh all the aspects :

If anything, the True Sight bonus needs to be tweaked, but downwards. Perhaps a bonus of 3/2 levels would be more appropriate. However, as I have said before there would also need to be an adjustment in the number of items that give a bonus to spot should True Seeing be changed. Even a potion that gives a temporary boost to spotting skills would be a start; either way, we need to make it fair for both sides of the debate.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:22 pm

Emprod wrote:The argument that it shouldn't see "Non-magically hidden" people goes kaput when those people are using all kinds of magical gear (and spells like camoflauge, mass camoflauge, etc) to help them hide, doesn't it?

Thats a very good point Emprod. If we take that into account then the spell should remove all hide bonuses apart from innate (due to skill) or "mundane". Its a bit tricky to say what is mundane and magical though, is a cloak of elvenkind magical or is it more like "masterwork" and therefore mundane? Probably a bit of both.

I'm fairly sure it would be impossible (or very difficult) to make TS work as above (i.e. providing enough Spot bonus just to overcome someone's magical hiding bonuses). So a compromise must be had.

Personally I think a cap on the ability would be more straightforward.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:35 pm

While everyone is throwing ideas around, do you think HIPS should work against someone with True Seeing? Isn't the HIPS ability a result of some semi-magical connection with the shadow plane?

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:43 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:So, we can sum this up as...

It is way too easy to raise hide/move silent through gear and/or much too hard to raise spot/listen through gear. And Truesight is not the answer.

I make this assumeing a few things.
-A rogue specialized in finding stealthers should be able too. Current gear availability breaks this. Stealth gear is much easier to get than hunter gear.
-Someone with NO skill in spot and listen should not be finding someone with max ranks in move silent and hide, all else being equal. True sight breaks this.

Back on page 2, Wrath stated this summary of the thread. After 3 more pages of arguement on this point or another. I think we have gotten nowhere from this initial conclusion.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:57 pm

Vergilius wrote:
WrathOG777 wrote:So, we can sum this up as...

It is way too easy to raise hide/move silent through gear and/or much too hard to raise spot/listen through gear. And Truesight is not the answer.

I make this assumeing a few things.
-A rogue specialized in finding stealthers should be able too. Current gear availability breaks this. Stealth gear is much easier to get than hunter gear.
-Someone with NO skill in spot and listen should not be finding someone with max ranks in move silent and hide, all else being equal. True sight breaks this.
Back on page 2, Wrath stated this summary of the thread. After 3 more pages of arguement on this point or another. I think we have gotten nowhere from this initial conclusion.

Well, I beg to differ Verg, but I think a very different conclusions has been reached:

Much of the skill check for Hide In Shadows is magical (from items and spells), a True Seeing spell should be able to see through this, but not the innate/mundane hiding ability.

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:59 pm

I'd like normal hide in shadows to be immune to True Seeing, but not HIPS. HIPS is to me a magical ability and therefore true seeing should have a chance to detect it ( as it is now seems ok to me ). This would work on a balance level IMO. Hide in Shadows cannot be abused the same way HIPS can to kill someone.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:03 pm

To me, HIde or hide in shadows is not the issue. If you think its magical thats fine, but its really a tangential issue to the main topic.

The relationship between TS and Hide
The relationship between Hide and Spot
The relationship between Move Silently and Listen

I read through most of those posts and I really felt like most of the discussion was basically a spinning of the tires in the mud. It was largely the same arguements perpetuated on the first two pages of the thread.

I don't think there is any way to distinguish between Hide vs HIPS either, so I think we're just stuck with what the engine allows for. which takes us back to the above conclusions:

Most people feel that the TS bonus is too much and does not allow the average stealth character to fulfill their roll.

Most people feel that any kind of detecting-based character, ie maxed ranks spot/listen has no chance in hell of ever detecting a similar character of the same level.

Basically, we can go through the theory of this all day, but nothing will ever be accomplished until we start going through practical steps of what can be actually accomplished on Avlis to remedy the problems.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:46 pm

Honestly, if hide wouldn't be abused so much (sneaking ito private residences, pickpoketing from people unable to stop you, stand next to people in a clear piece of terrain listening to their whispers, etc...)

I would feel more comfortable with reducing spot. But remove all ablity to spot hiders, and you make them way too strong.

Currently, I doupt any hide/MS based char is able to spot himself.

Just the other side of the coin, and my 2 cc.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:17 pm

Isn't gear passive and imbued with magic seeming qualities?

I.E. Elven boots are very soft and made from noice reducing material and so not actually magical?

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:25 pm

Fine. If elven boots (+10) and elven cloaks (+10) and robes of blending (+15) are non-magical and super helpful, give me a helm with +20 spot that's not magical. Or maybe 30 or 40.

According to CoPaP, a +10 skill item is better than a +3 weapon (super rare). A +15 is the same as a +5 weapon. Which noone outside the 1% owns. But we have that kind of hide gear out there.

This discussion ate my balls.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:30 pm

Emprod wrote:Fine. If elven boots (+10) and elven cloaks (+10) and robes of blending (+15) are non-magical and super helpful, give me a helm with +20 spot that's not magical. Or maybe 30 or 40.

According to CoPaP, a +10 skill item is better than a +3 weapon (super rare). A +15 is the same as a +5 weapon. Which noone outside the 1% owns. But we have that kind of hide gear out there.

This discussion ate my balls.

I would love to see a spot item in game with +10. IMO, however, a +20 should be divided into two items separate items. However, I would not want to see these items in place, without a serious reduction to TS. If you just throw these items in game, casters will spot rogues without any effort. It should be fun for both sides of this.... Those who are trying to hide, and those who are trying to spot...

Bear

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:43 pm

Bear wrote: I would love to see a spot item in game with +10. IMO, however, a +20 should be divided into two items separate items. However, I would not want to see these items in place, without a serious reduction to TS. If you just throw these items in game, casters will spot rogues without any effort. It should be fun for both sides of this.... Those who are trying to hide, and those who are trying to spot...

Bear

It needs to work in the other way. The ability for folks to spot/listen needs to arrive and mingle before TS is altered. It will take time for these new things to move around a bit, and for spot/listen based characters to get the idea that they have a chance. Then once some gaurds are around to counter all the spys true sight will no longer be nessasary and thus the change might not even be needed because folks will not bother with TS since a via countermeasure is in place.

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:21 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:Honestly, if hide wouldn't be abused so much (sneaking ito private residences, pickpoketing from people unable to stop you, stand next to people in a clear piece of terrain listening to their whispers, etc...).

Sneaking into private residences is not allowed, assuming it has any sort of plot door. I personally will never build a house like this, just because I think it is not realistic. Get yourself a plot chest (I assume the rule applies to them as well) if you want something safe, but I think plot doors are shutting out some interesting RP opportunities. I'm not into pickpocket in any way, so no comment on that. Standing next to someone who is whispering? Use your imagination and common sense a bit. The sneak is probably camouflaged and in the grass hiding (or whatever, depending on the location). This is someone who has gone to extreme effort learning how to hide, probably dedicated their life to it. We are also talking about supernatural items/magic enhancements.

Starslayer_D wrote: I would feel more comfortable with reducing spot. But remove all ability to spot hiders, and you make them way too strong.

TS should be reduced a bit, but more spot items added. This has been suggested many times.

Starslayer_D wrote: Currently, I doupt any hide/MS based char is able to spot himself.

I have no chance to catch myself. Why should rogues be the best at spotting? Wouldn't alert guard/fighter types make more sense? Right now, neither one has a chance. Only TS does the job. I do agree that someone should be able to play a spotter without TS, but that will require adding in several items to boost the spot and listen abilities. The balance is way off in that respect.