true seeing on avlis

DanaS · Post by **DanaS** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:22 am

I think something people are forgetting here is that casters not being able to see rogues isn't nessecerialy a bad thing. Casters don't need to be able to do everything, they already have the most flexibilty, firepower, and defense, why not throw the rogue a bone and play by the real rules (where you cant insta-see through his only defense) Caster's can already do everything else, why flip out over them not being able to see rogues (which they shouldn't be able to do), after all, rogues can't cast spells. True seeing with massive spot bonuses will be fair when rogues can cast dispells, heals, or buffs without having to sacrifice anything.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:17 am

fuck the rogues.

Mistcaller · Post by **Mistcaller** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:03 pm

All together now:

'All we are saaaaayinnng, is give thieves a chaaaaance!'

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:09 pm

playa-haters

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:16 pm

If you took away the bonus to spot from TS, what would TS give you that See Invisibility doesn't?

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:21 pm

Immunity to illusions.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:22 pm

Imune darkness, which also is added to the TS? If i rember right. But TS would be pretty much useless.

It isnt illusion, when you can be killed with spells that are illusions, like Wierd and such, perhaps these are counted as deathmagic, but still they are illusions.

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:31 pm

TS wouldn't be worth a 6th lvl spell slot without the bonus to spot, or something equivalent. Immunity to illusion is certainly not worth it, if that is what you get. Neither is immunity to darkness.

AUman · Post by **AUman** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:03 pm

From my experience I don't think it gives you an immunity to darkness.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:11 pm

It is a spell imunity, and darkness is a form of illusion. I bet afterall that TD is right when he writes imune illusion. I have been in darkness, and there was no effect on my char when i had the TS up, except it was BLACK, but no penalties for attacking. The illusion deathmagic spells kills you still, and there are no imunity against them however.

AUman · Post by **AUman** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:38 pm

White-Raven wrote:It is a spell imunity, and darkness is a form of illusion. I bet afterall that TD is right when he writes imune illusion. I have been in darkness, and there was no effect on my char when i had the TS up, except it was BLACK, but no penalties for attacking. The illusion deathmagic spells kills you still, and there are no imunity against them however.

Ahh...ok. Since I don't do a whole lot of attacking, I was basing that it doesn't make you imune to darkness on the fact that it does turn dark.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:41 pm

Might been changed since last I tried as well. I don't play spellcasters that much these days. Just seen it was a 2xlvl boost to Spot + Imune spells as it was before, not tested it latest months. Ignore my postings.

WR

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:49 pm

A lvl 10 ranger/rogue/shadowdancer is able to walk right by my lvl 17 wizard with True Seeing up without being spotted, btw.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:21 pm

Good idea though to use the area ability to give your private residency a spot/listen modifier of +90 to eliminate the sneak into residency and loot problem, by the way.

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:33 pm

kombinat wrote:A lvl 10 ranger/rogue/shadowdancer is able to walk right by my lvl 17 wizard with True Seeing up without being spotted, btw.

I have to say that I'm very flattered to have a spell specifically tailored after
my character.

Currently if your character don't have a robe of blending and a cloak of elven
kind you're out of luck. My level 10 character is very lucky to have those
items. Just because there is one lvl 10 ranger or rogue who can beat
true seeing does not mean that every ranger or rogue out there can

The ability to play a stealthy character should not be dependent on uber
items that most players only can dream of (I know I did when I started this
thread).

Cymbolism · Post by **Cymbolism** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:34 pm

DanaS wrote: True seeing with massive spot bonuses will be fair when rogues can cast dispells, heals, or buffs without having to sacrifice anything.

A L6 spellslot is nothing to be sneezed at - it is a sacrifice.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:49 pm

Halvar Yanocen wrote:
The ability to play a stealthy character should not be dependent on uber
items that most players only can dream of (I know I did when I started this
thread).

I would make the same arguement of a detecting character. Most of the rogues/rangers in the game could max ranks in spot/listen and would not be able to detect themselves. In my case, I have a character built around spot/listen, and its generally only good against those many levels below her. Honestly, I'm beginning to think there isn't a very good solution to this whole dilemma.

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:11 pm

It isn't that stealth characters get uber items all the time. I use 8 different items specifically for hide and MS bonuses, almost every one store bought in Avlis. Toss in 2 spells and a potion or two. With that kind of effort (plus skill bonuses) you can get a pretty good stealth skill.

The balance issue is the lack of spot items. Just bump down TS to +3/2 levels instead of +2/level and put in more items for spot bonuses. Then TS is beatable unless the caster puts some effort into actually trying to spot. It also gives non-true seeing capable characters a chance at playing a keen eyed role.

*edit*
Don't forget about the listen skill as well. It is often overlooked. If some items were added to boost that, there would be quite a few stealth characters who would have to be a lot more careful about how they move around.

4x4_Ender · Post by **4x4_Ender** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:38 pm

White-Raven wrote:Might been changed since last I tried as well. I don't play spellcasters that much these days. Just seen it was a 2xlvl boost to Spot + Imune spells as it was before, not tested it latest months. Ignore my postings.

WR

Maybe true seeing could be tweeked to help you see this post!!

I think the spot bonus could be lowered a bit IMO, from 2xlevel to maybe 1.5xlevel. Currently, it is VERY hard for a rogue to beet a TS spell, even if the person has no points in their spot. You pretty much need to have 20+ levels in either rogue, ranger or shadowdancer or any combination of those.

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:34 pm

Vergilius wrote:
Halvar Yanocen wrote:
The ability to play a stealthy character should not be dependent on uber
items that most players only can dream of (I know I did when I started this
thread).
I would make the same arguement of a detecting character. Most of the rogues/rangers in the game could max ranks in spot/listen and would not be able to detect themselves. In my case, I have a character built around spot/listen, and its generally only good against those many levels below her. Honestly, I'm beginning to think there isn't a very good solution to this whole dilemma.

Correct. Gear completely throws off the balance between the opposing skills. CoPaP would need to implement maximum boosts for each type of wearable item so you can calculate the total possible skill boost from a complete set, and then create a matching set of Spot/Hide items, and arrange for them to get distributed as easily as the Hide/MS items.

There's a ton of Hide/MS boosting equipment on PCs already, since there are plenty of such in the toolset to give out as rewards, or to drop from monsters before a PW puts in the strict CoPaP limits. Far fewer Spot/Listen items, since there are only a few in the toolset. Bioware didn't create items for use in PvP, only for use in the campaign. Hide/MS are far more useful against monsters than Spot/Listen, so that's why there's an imbalance in the toolset palette.

So after setting limits on the kind of skill boosting items available, you then have to start circulating them in game slowly at different rates to balance out the items people already have, or you simply flood the market with the items so everyone will have what they need.

Halvar's lvl 10 ranger/rogue/shadowdancer is a valid example in this argument. As a relatively low-level PC with connections to powerful guilds and players, its instructive to see how she is able to get uber Hide/MS gear quickly, probably from a combination of DM Quests, shopping, and gifts. From my morbid inventory of corpses I come across, I can safely say that the higher level rogues/shadowdancers in established guilds (Ravens, T'nanshi Army) and quite a few independents have even more gear than that lvl 10 PC.

When this thread started, I had encountered Halvar's PC in the warzone. She was some 6+ lvls lower than me, and even though I had True Sight on she was able to stay hidden for a few rounds, enough so I didn't see her until she got near an area transition. I chased her quickly, but by the time I got to the next area she was gone. That was beautiful: a perfect example of how Hide should work.

At this point in time, taking into account the items I last saw on her corpse, I'm not sure I could spot her with TS at all: at the very least, the gear I inventoried plus her base Hide skill should match my Spot with TS. Even though she is 6 levels lower than me. Needless to say, the rogue/shadowdancers at or just above my level can continually beat my Spot. No matter if I stand in a clearing in the middle of the battlefield, if they stay there for hours listening to my whispers, etc...

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:28 pm

Just as an addendum, remember now that rangers can add +23 to their hide with spells, which are all hour/level as oppossed to clairaudience/clairvoyance which adds +10 but only at round/level.

If the TS bonus is going to be removed, they need to do something about the duration of the other spot/listen bonus spells so that they're worth taking.(While a first level spell slot and a third level one don't sound like much, they are somewhat annoying to have to spend on spells that are so highly specialized in function)

Given the restrictions we have on the divination spells, rather than the scrying like effect it gives in PnP, CA/CV should perhaps be giving +3/2 levels spot/listen bonuses at turn/level or hour/level.

This would make the poor divination specialist(*Waves to Gairus*) a bit more useful.

Also, for immunity to illusion, has anyone tried if that has any effect on the Shades spell?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:34 pm

true sight does not currently provide immunity to illusion, it should provide immunity to illusion.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:38 pm

I was wondering when someone would mention that. lol.

Tyrion77 · Post by **Tyrion77** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:06 pm

Possibly some bonus to search items? It can be used to find hideing characters as well and is more likely to be maxed out than spot or listen on rogues and a fair few chars dump points into it so they can see traps before they run over them.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:03 pm

I wish I could get my hands on a cloak of elvinkind +10 and my character is very well connected.

I like the idea of toneing done TS to +1/level of spot and giving Immunity to Illusions. This would compensate for being a 6th level spell, still give bonus to spot for those specializing in "hunting" with appropriate skills and add advantages using against other spell casters. I have not played any spell caster but could envision this in a caster duel that needed to be dispelled before you could use your weird spell.

I have a 11th level Rogue/SD/Ranger and have maxed out points but never put feats into it.

The World of Avlis

true seeing on avlis

mhm