The relative importance of the axes on the alignment grid

[Malathyre]

Mostly, because of the restrictions I have seen it put on RP and the stereotyping I think it causes, I don't really care for alignment very much at all. Alignment is just like every other rule I've encountered in real life: it's probably a good guideline, but that doesn't mean it isn't ignorable sometimes. I feel it's a poor thing to be beholden to, and I don't hold other people to it. It's a fine place to start with a character, or a good aspect to think about for your character, but it is not the be all end all of the character, or at least not for me, anyway.

[Titanium Dragon]

Both conditions must match (or at least be as close as possible) for the characters to consider themselves friends. Thus, while a Lawful character may fight & die to defend others, he will only call L-G, or N-G characters his friends. Chaotic characters are too far from his ideology: they are not a threat to his life, but they are a threat to his way of living. Likewise, while a Good character will share his last scrap of food with an evil character (should some condition exist which forces them to work together), they are not friends, and the Evil character would take all the food if given the opportunity.

Sorry XXXX. I don't think Laen and XXXX can be friends any more. (You know who you are)

What a load of toss you just typed. Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect XXXX is probably evil. On the other hand Laen is CG, used to be NG.( I actually asked for, and got, a hit of 20 on both axes.) Why can't Laen be friends with someone who has saved his life, made sacrifices for him etc...? I know he isn't perfect, but he has been good to me. I know OOC that he has told me a few lies, but not IC I don't.

When you start basing your friendships in the game on an OOC alignment grid then you have a problem. The "rules" are a tool to allow us to create a liveable and enjoyable envoronment, not a straitjacket set of ruels to tell us how we must act.

I don't know who XXXX is, but I've never met them IC and AFAIK they've never posted on the evil boards and are new. So cut them a bit of slack? They'll learn, but insulting them isn't going to help.

[Wolf]

It also depends on the individual.

Sh'lieulias has a number of friends who are neutrally aligned, and even some who are good aligned. Why? Because in the AKN he is a dedicated researcher, and people respect that. He may be gruff and harsh, but he has an apprentice and shares his knowledge. Several people in the AKN have testified on his behalf towards him being a not-so-bad person. He is also a member of the Ebony Order, and has many friends there as well. He has other friends too.

Likewise, Vence has some friends and some people who respect him. He's a bandit, but most people find him too comical (and stupid) to be truly "evil". He doesn't really think of himself as evil either. Most of his friends are "evil", but he does have a few who are not.

Some people are more or less tolerant of differences in others. Chaotically aligned people are usually more tolerant than lawfully aligned of those who are their opposite, while neutrals tend to be the most tolerant.

I have a couple of characters, one here, one on Abyss 404, who have ambigous alignments. They are who they are, but they aren't purely one alignment or another. They border between neutral and good. I would hesitate to call them "good" alignment wise, though in the real world I would probably get along with at least one of them well. Vence is on his character sheet a certain alignment, and I could argue that is either accurate to his world view or inaccurate.

You are confusing friendship with familiarity. Respect for one's enemy is all well and good, but he's still your enemy. Likewise, just because someone is in the same organization as you, it does not mean that they are your friend simply because they don't think you're a jerk. Friendship is deeper than mere acquaintance. Would you drop everything and go on a journey through miles of perilous wilderness to help your best friend recover a lost heirloom which his family greatly values? Would you do the same for a co-worker?

IC, you don't have a label on your forehead, and it is possible to know someone and not really know their alignment at all.

It is entirely possible for a LG paladin to greatly respect, perhaps even admire a LE fighter for their honor and integrity, especially if the LE fighter doesn't do anything openly that makes it obvious what his true nature is.

I draw your attention to the Paladin ability "Detect Evil".
3rd Ed. PHB, pg. 43 states:
"While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good."

Granted, I don't think Detect Evil made its way into NWN, but you may recall that the beginning of my original message stated that I was referring to D&D rules. That being the case, such an ability can still be roleplayed. A Paladin does NOT tolerate evil except in such cases where it serves the greater good, and even then only so long as the Paladin can maintain control of his own desire to smite the evil character.

NWN is, of course, an incomplete application of D&D rules, but it does try to stay as true to form as can reasonably be expected. Roleplaying on this scale was likely not anticipated, and as such no game mechanics were included to deal with it. You have to read the books for the requisite info on that topic. What I originally said was you could not stray too far from your particular ethos when determining what characters yours can call friend.

I understand that this is a game in which everyone is meant to have fun and ideally, be friends. But that isn't roleplaying. That is an OOC friendship that in a truly RP environment would have no bearing on your character.

[Wolf]

When you start basing your friendships in the game on an OOC alignment grid then you have a problem. The "rules" are a tool to allow us to create a liveable and enjoyable envoronment, not a straitjacket set of ruels to tell us how we must act.

You're right, that's why I never suggested that you do so. I merely responded to someone else's interpretation of alignment rules. I realize this is a game in which everyone was meant to have fun, and that will often mean ignoring alignment rules. However, if you were a Paladin in my campaign and had a Chaotic-Good friend, you'd receive a hefty xp penalty for poor roleplaying.

Regards,

[Wolf]

Mostly, because of the restrictions I have seen it put on RP and the stereotyping I think it causes, I don't really care for alignment very much at all. Alignment is just like every other rule I've encountered in real life: it's probably a good guideline, but that doesn't mean it isn't ignorable sometimes. I feel it's a poor thing to be beholden to, and I don't hold other people to it. It's a fine place to start with a character, or a good aspect to think about for your character, but it is not the be all end all of the character, or at least not for me, anyway.

And in a game that was never designed to support roleplaying, that's the best way to handle it.

Since joining the world of Avlis, I've talked at length with many people, and spent hours killing undead or hobgoblins and other miscellaneous creatures with nary a thought to the alignment of my compatriates. Taking pleasure in the comeraderie of other players is great fun, but as I said, it's not roleplaying.

[Titanium Dragon]

You are confusing friendship with familiarity. Respect for one's enemy is all well and good, but he's still your enemy. Likewise, just because someone is in the same organization as you, it does not mean that they are your friend simply because they don't think you're a jerk. Friendship is deeper than mere acquaintance. Would you drop everything and go on a journey through miles of perilous wilderness to help your best friend recover a lost heirloom which his family greatly values? Would you do the same for a co-worker?

People have made several posts on my behalf and their characters have been neutral/good. Is that a sign of friendship?

It IS possible to be friends with someone who you don't agree with totally idealogically. IRL I have friends who aren't Christian, and who aren't pro-choice. They aren't GOOD friends, but they are friends.

I draw your attention to the Paladin ability "Detect Evil".
3rd Ed. PHB, pg. 43 states:
"While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good."

Granted, I don't think Detect Evil made its way into NWN, but you may recall that the beginning of my original message stated that I was referring to D&D rules. That being the case, such an ability can still be roleplayed. A Paladin does NOT tolerate evil except in such cases where it serves the greater good, and even then only so long as the Paladin can maintain control of his own desire to smite the evil character.

NWN is, of course, an incomplete application of D&D rules, but it does try to stay as true to form as can reasonably be expected. Roleplaying on this scale was likely not anticipated, and as such no game mechanics were included to deal with it. You have to read the books for the requisite info on that topic. What I originally said was you could not stray too far from your particular ethos when determining what characters yours can call friend.

Paladins do in fact have that ability. However, they use it rarely. Why? Because if you use it, and they AREN'T evil, then they are likely to be offended. VERY offended. Add to that a distrust of paladins (they're very domineering, and if they told you YOUR best friend was evil after hearing about how they cheated in a duel, would you trust them?) and its pretty hard to use that ability effectively unless you are pretty sure or are in dire need of it.

I understand that this is a game in which everyone is meant to have fun and ideally, be friends. But that isn't roleplaying. That is an OOC friendship that in a truly RP environment would have no bearing on your character.

A lot of people hate Sh'lieulias IC. He's even got two large organizations hunting him right now.

But Sh'lieulias is a person, and it is possible for a person to have more than one dimension to them. You may hate a part of them, but like another part. It just depends on how important (and sure) that part is. After all, would you necessarily belive a friend of yours would commit murder after you saw them do something nice for someone else, like become their mentor?

You're right, that's why I never suggested that you do so. I merely responded to someone else's interpretation of alignment rules. I realize this is a game in which everyone was meant to have fun, and that will often mean ignoring alignment rules. However, if you were a Paladin in my campaign and had a Chaotic-Good friend, you'd receive a hefty xp penalty for poor roleplaying.

Again, depends on the paladin and the Chaotic Good person. The CG one may drive the paladin crazy, but some real friends of mine do that to me at times, but I'm still their friend. Other people may be the equivalent distance from me and I'd dislike them considerably.

[Daerthe]

It is entirely possible for a LG paladin to greatly respect, perhaps even admire a LE fighter for their honor and integrity, especially if the LE fighter doesn't do anything openly that makes it obvious what his true nature is.

This is entirely true. If the evil character hides their true colors from good character, there is no way to just know. My LG paladin has an IC friend who I know OOC is evil, but I don't know it IC. He's never committed or acted in any way evil in front of me. In fact he's been quite kind. Also my detect evil feat didn't work when I first started and I met this character my first few days on Avlis. So I RP that I have no idea what his alignment is. I have the feat fixed now, but have no reason to use it on him. So, there is a paladin running around Avlis who is friends with an evil character. Kinda fun to see if she will ever figure it out.

[Nob]

Uh oh.

I guess a DM needs to dock me several tens of thousands of xp then...

My CG character's girlfriend is NE, and one of his best friends is LE, not to mention a slew of TN friends, and LN friends...

Oops.

[JollyOrc]

Taking pleasure in the comeraderie of other players is great fun, but as I said, it's not roleplaying.

uh...

No.

I want to disagree. People of different alignments can be friends, although they are bound to have problems with each other other certain things every now and then. But who isn't ?

I have seen tons of very good roleplay between characters that are of different alignments but who are also friends, and at times couples. Heck, my bard (CG) married a LE woman in game. And don't you dare tell me that this was bad rp, because there was a ton of reason for this, with months of rp behind it.

And before you ask: He knew that she wasn't "a good" kind of person. And we got a Paladin to act as father of the bride. Not that he liked it...

[WrathOG777]

That bull shit is like me saying I will never hang out with my best friend again because he refuses to drink and I am an alcoholic.

Some say opposites cannot be friends, I say I have my own private DD.

And on to my opinion on alignment...

STFU! Alignment is OOC, useing it in any way is OOC.

Philosophies and character concepts are IC. If you ever let some letters on your character sheet determine your actions instead of doing what makes sence IC then you are fucking up. If you are a diety follower of some sort, the great nine have philosophys, one of which you need to learn. Follow that, not some damn OOC info, which is all alignment is.

And yes, I spelled diety wrong just to piss you off!

[Tangleroot]

I wonder how people can ever play other rpg's than D&Dwhen they have no alignment grids! I mean how on earth will people know what to to do, when their personalities are not neatly summarized by two words..?

[Malathyre]

I wonder how people can ever play other rpg's than D&Dwhen they have no alignment grids! I mean how on earth will people know what to to do, when their personalities are not neatly summarized by two words..?

Thanks, Tangle, this is exactly what I was talking about. Interacting with players of differing philosophies is a lot of fun. Don't tell me I have to like or dislike someone because of a two word description...that just seems awfully shallow.

[Wolf]

People have made several posts on my behalf and their characters have been neutral/good. Is that a sign of friendship?

No

It IS possible to be friends with someone who you don't agree with totally idealogically. IRL I have friends who aren't Christian, and who aren't pro-choice. They aren't GOOD friends, but they are friends.

Yes, it's possible to be friends with someone whose ideology does not exactly match your own. However, they cannot stray too far from your own moral compass, or it won't work. If one of these "friends" you mention asked you to sit with her (I'm assuming at least one is female, if not the example is still valid) in the operating theatre, holding her hand to support her while she has an abortion, would you?

As you said, they aren't good friends. What does that make them? Acquaintances - you just made my point for me.

Again, depends on the paladin and the Chaotic Good person. The CG one may drive the paladin crazy, but some real friends of mine do that to me at times, but I'm still their friend. Other people may be the equivalent distance from me and I'd dislike them considerably.

A LG Paladin who is in an adventuring party with a CG Fighter (for example) will tolerate the CG Fighter for as long as their goals match. However, if the Fighter decides one day not to accept the surrender of an enemy party, how is the Paladin going to react? Will he a) continue on as if nothing happened or b) relieve the fighter of his weapons and turn him over to the local authorities?

A CG Fighter is, for all intents and purposes, a vigilante. A LG Paladin is, essentially, a Marshall. What kind of relationship are they going to have? Sure they may each respect the others abilities, but they are not friends, and they would not work together voluntarily.

[Wolf]

I have seen tons of very good roleplay between characters that are of different alignments but who are also friends, and at times couples. Heck, my bard (CG) married a LE woman in game. And don't you dare tell me that this was bad rp, because there was a ton of reason for this, with months of rp behind it.

And before you ask: He knew that she wasn't "a good" kind of person. And we got a Paladin to act as father of the bride. Not that he liked it...

CG and LE are not opposed alignments, so there's no reason such a union could not work (though there would be tension).

A CG character is like The Punisher. Interested only in making the world a better place by any means necessary. A LE character is like Gollum. Interested only in his own needs, but bound by a personal code of ethics. Gollum, you may recall, was true to his word and guided Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom. It wasn't until his stronger, Neutral-Evil personality asserted itself that he betrayed them.

A chaotic good character can run around killing bad guys left and right, and can be accompanied by a lawful-evil partner who's only interested in looting the corpses in his wake. The two alignments are close enough that they can work together.

Expanding on the Gollum example, look at Faramir. When he found Frodo and Sam in the wild, it was Frodo who begged him to spare Gollum. Faramir's first instinct was to kill him for tresspassing. Faramir is Lawful-Good. Lawful because he is a Captain of Gondor and follows the laws set by his King, and good because he was merciful and returned Gollum to Frodo's care.

Would your CG fighter travel long with Faramir? Or would Faramir eventually arrest you for being a little too liberal in dispensing justice to the masses?

[Wolf]

That bull shit is like me saying I will never hang out with my best friend again because he refuses to drink and I am an alcoholic.

Some say opposites cannot be friends, I say I have my own private DD.

And on to my opinion on alignment...

STFU! Alignment is OOC, useing it in any way is OOC.

Philosophies and character concepts are IC. If you ever let some letters on your character sheet determine your actions instead of doing what makes sence IC then you are fucking up. If you are a diety follower of some sort, the great nine have philosophys, one of which you need to learn. Follow that, not some damn OOC info, which is all alignment is.

And yes, I spelled diety wrong just to piss you off!

Nice troll.
Grow up.

[Wolf]

I wonder how people can ever play other rpg's than D&Dwhen they have no alignment grids! I mean how on earth will people know what to to do, when their personalities are not neatly summarized by two words..?

Ok, this is getting depressing. I never once said that your alignment should determine your actions. What I said was, if you don't play within your alignment restrictions, it's time for a change of alignment.

Why do you think the game penalizes certain classes so heavily for changing alignment? It's a huge part of the game that 99 people out of a hundred still misunderstand some 30+ years after the game was created.

[Wolf]

I wonder how people can ever play other rpg's than D&Dwhen they have no alignment grids! I mean how on earth will people know what to to do, when their personalities are not neatly summarized by two words..?

Thanks, Tangle, this is exactly what I was talking about. Interacting with players of differing philosophies is a lot of fun. Don't tell me I have to like or dislike someone because of a two word description...that just seems awfully shallow.

Well, it's come to the point where I actually have to quote my own message because people just aren't getting it.

NWN is, of course, an incomplete application of D&D rules, but it does try to stay as true to form as can reasonably be expected. Roleplaying on this scale was likely not anticipated, and as such no game mechanics were included to deal with it. You have to read the books for the requisite info on that topic. What I originally said was you could not stray too far from your particular ethos when determining what characters yours can call friend.

I understand that this is a game in which everyone is meant to have fun and ideally, be friends. But that isn't roleplaying. That is an OOC friendship that in a truly RP environment would have no bearing on your character.

There's 2 things wrong with the statement you made:

1) "Interacting with players of differing philosophies"
You're not interacting with players of differing philosophies, you're interacting with characters of differing philosophies. You are confusing IC with OOC.

2) I never once said who you could and could not like. I told you what the rules said about who your character can call friend. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

[Jordicus]

Nice troll.
Grow up.

that is a completely unnecessary comment.

stop stereotyping the different aligments. they are not rigid definitions of character. Every CG person is not a Vigilante. Every LG person is not a Marshall. People/characters can be friends with whomever they want, regardless of alignment. It may make them uncomfortable at times because of choices that the other makes, but that does not change something from being a friendship to a "familiarity" as you have stated. that's a bunch of crap.

this statement: "Taking pleasure in the comeraderie of other players is great fun, but as I said, it's not roleplaying." is extremely mistaken. Roleplaying is simply "Playing a Role". If part of that role means that you are spending time enjoying the company of friends, then you are roleplaying. period. who are you to define what is roleplaying or not? that is NOT and NEVER will be the job of the player. that is solely the job of the DMs.

However, if you were a Paladin in my campaign and had a Chaotic-Good friend, you'd receive a hefty xp penalty for poor roleplaying

First of all, based on that statement, I would never even remotely be interested in a Campaign that you run. Secondly, what justification would you have to give out a XP penalty for this?

I told you what the rules said about who your character can call friend.

the rules of alignment DO NOT state who your character can or cannot choose to have as friends. That is your mistaken understanding of how alignment works. stop trying to push your narrow-minded perspective on everyone else.

[Malathyre]

1) "Interacting with players of differing philosophies"
You're not interacting with players of differing philosophies, you're interacting with characters of differing philosophies. You are confusing IC with OOC.

Semantics issue, but of course you are right, I should have typed character instead of player. I'm not confused about anything, I just mistyped a word. I do this from time to time, it just happened to be a particularly bad place for me to mistype one this time.

2) I never once said who you could and could not like. I told you what the rules said about who your character can call friend. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Fair enough. Personally, I'm not fond of this rule. How am I supposed to use OOC information to determine my IC friends? I'd rather RP it out than find out someone's alignment score and use that as a basis for friendship.

[Wolf]

that is a completely unnecessary comment. and besides.. I would say that the person who has less than 15 posts and thinks he knows everything about alignment is more of a troll than anyone else.

I'm sorry. I was under the obviously mistaken impression that this was a public forum for anyone who plays on Avlis to post on. I wasn't aware that there was a requisite number of posts to partake in what started out as a friendly discussion, but has quickly degenerated into personal attacks against me by people too immature to intelligently debate their point of view.

stop stereotyping the different aligments. they are not rigid definitions of character. Every CG person is not a Vigilante. Every LG person is not a Marshall. People/characters can be friends with whomever they want, regardless of alignment. It may make them uncomfortable at times because of choices that the other makes, but that does not change something from being a friendship to a "familiarity" as you have stated. that's a bunch of crap.

Firstly, you have utterly failed (as have most people who've responded here) to figure out that I'm talking entirely about in character relationships. Not once have I suggested who you as a player can or cannot call a friend.

Secondly, my example of friend vs. acquaintance is valid. It identifies who you would be willing to go to the mat for and who you wouldn't.

this statement: "Taking pleasure in the comeraderie of other players is great fun, but as I said, it's not roleplaying." is extremely mistaken. Roleplaying is simply "Playing a Role". If part of that role means that you are spending time enjoying the company of friends, then you are roleplaying. period. who are you to define what is roleplaying or not? that is NOT and NEVER will be the job of the player. that is solely the job of the DMs.

I have said from the beginning that roleplaying only affects your character, not your personal life. Your character is subject to the rules of the game, which includes alignment. If you don't play your character within the guidelines of your chosen alignment, then your alignment changes and you have to deal with any consequences of that change in character. I also stated that the rules were in the Players Handbook. I do not define what is roleplaying, the rules do. If you don't agree with my interpretation, that's fine; but if you can't discuss it civilly, stay quiet. Finally, you are correct: Defining what is and is not correct roleplaying is the job of the DM. However, as the DM is not always present, and the game (NWN) does not support the necessary mechanics to ensure each player controls their character within the confines of their alignment, it is therefore up to the individual player to DM themselves in this regard.

However, if you were a Paladin in my campaign and had a Chaotic-Good friend, you'd receive a hefty xp penalty for poor roleplaying

First of all, based on that statement, I would never even remotely be interested in a Campaign that you run. Secondly, what justification would you have to give out a XP penalty for this?

Personal interpretation of alignment rules and class restrictions on Paladin's (as was the example given in the original message).

the rules of alignment DO NOT state who your character can or cannot choose to have as friends. That is your mistaken understanding of how alignment works. stop trying to push your narrow-minded perspective on everyone else.

The rules do, in fact, state who your character can or cannot choose as friends with regard to Paladins, as was the original topic of this thread. Paladins do not tolerate evil and will not associate with evil characters. I'm not making this up - it's in the PHB.

What is more narrow-minded? Openly discussing the topic, or actively trying to silence someone you disagree with? Come back when you're matured a little.

[Wolf]

2) I never once said who you could and could not like. I told you what the rules said about who your character can call friend. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Fair enough. Personally, I'm not fond of this rule. How am I supposed to use OOC information to determine my IC friends? I'd rather RP it out than find out someone's alignment score and use that as a basis for friendship.

That's exactly correct!
You can't use OOC information to determine your character's actions, so you have no other choice but to roleplay it out. Once you've determined the alignment of another character (based on his/her actions) it is then up to your character to decide whether or not he wants to continue the association based on his own moral compass.

The only time (that I'm aware of) that this isn't the case is with Paladins. While a LG character could coneivably form a relationship with a LE character, it's not likely to be more than a work relationship. Paladin's, however (as was the original topic), upon learning of a character's evil nature, will instantly sever the relationship due to class restrictions based on the rules in the PHB.

All I ever said is that in order to have anything more than a work relationship with another character (ie: an adventuring party) the general alignments of the characters involved cannot be on extreme ends of the alignment spectrum.

[Cath]

You are the one completely missing the point.
There is no such thing as rules in the Players handbook.
Lots and lots of guidelines but no rules that has to be followed to play the game right.

Firstly, you have utterly failed (as have most people who've responded here) to figure out that I'm talking entirely about in character relationships. Not once have I suggested who you as a player can or cannot call a friend.

You have also failed to figure out that so do we.

I am defending my CHARACTER'S right to be friends with anyone of any alignment for any reasons she pleases.
You are stereotyping the alignments and pushing them to their extremes.

Not every person (oh , sorry CHARACTER) with a CG alignment is a vigilante and so on...a world where you only have nine types of personalities must be very boring and quite frankly uninteresting.

There is more to a personality than just black or white, as in lots of shades of grey...a LG character might be much closer to a LN character than another extreme LG and yet be true to his alignment.

Do you like absolutely everything about all of your friends?
Or do they have sides you put up with because you like the rest too much to care?

[Titanium Dragon]

2) I never once said who you could and could not like. I told you what the rules said about who your character can call friend. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Fair enough. Personally, I'm not fond of this rule. How am I supposed to use OOC information to determine my IC friends? I'd rather RP it out than find out someone's alignment score and use that as a basis for friendship.

That's exactly correct!
You can't use OOC information to determine your character's actions, so you have no other choice but to roleplay it out. Once you've determined the alignment of another character (based on his/her actions) it is then up to your character to decide whether or not he wants to continue the association based on his own moral compass.

The only time (that I'm aware of) that this isn't the case is with Paladins. While a LG character could coneivably form a relationship with a LE character, it's not likely to be more than a work relationship. Paladin's, however (as was the original topic), upon learning of a character's evil nature, will instantly sever the relationship due to class restrictions based on the rules in the PHB.

All I ever said is that in order to have anything more than a work relationship with another character (ie: an adventuring party) the general alignments of the characters involved cannot be on extreme ends of the alignment spectrum.

First off, paladins on Avlis are specifically the holy warriors of Gorethar, prone to the rules of Avlis, ect. I do not know if they have the same "Do not associate with evil" rules on Avlis as they do in the PHB, but I doubt it from all I've see. Otherwise Orl would have ulcers by now. Though really, not too many paladins knowingly have evil friends to my knowledge.

CG characters are not necessiarily vigilante type personalities... they may simply have little respect for the rigidity of society. A CG character could be a total pacifist and believe in the principle of "As long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone but yourself, you should be able to do it." They could not believe in the restraints of a highly lawful society, in all the rules and regulations, in the laws against prostitution, drugs, whatever. CGs could simply be free spirits... nice people who really are just too high to care about laws. Or just too nice. Or whatever. Vigilantes really have nothing to do with CG any more than CN or CE - all can be and often are vigilantes both IRL and in D&D. Even NG, TN, and even NEs can be.

[Malathyre]

All I ever said is that in order to have anything more than a work relationship with another character (ie: an adventuring party) the general alignments of the characters involved cannot be on extreme ends of the alignment spectrum.

I would be hesitant to apply this to all situations. I've heard of some pretty disparately aligned folks working together to repel Sereg attacks on Mikona, and I personally have worked with some very differently aligned people to accomplish things on Avlis...and this was all perfectly in character.

The problem with alignment is that it is neither truly dynamic nor truly static. It can change, but it doesn't very often, and the circumstances under which it does are often exceedingly unclear. It is supposed to be an rping and character development tool, not a means or an end to rp to. Just like I don't always use a hammer to drive a nail, I don't have a strong desire to make much use of this tool, especially when after all these years it is still vague and confusing to so many. I've played several other PnP games that don't use alignment at all, and if anything, I've felt more comfortable in those games with my character's actions because I didn't feel like I was restricted by an alignment score.

Perhaps this means I shouldn't play D&D, or NWN, or Avlis, since they all use alignment, but I don't think so. I think it just means that I'm gonna let someone else worry about whether or not my character is playing to her alignment, and I'm just gonna play her how I want to, and make friends with who it is IC to do so. Some DM wants to change my character's alignment for some reason, fine by me, go for it if you deem it necessary.

Oh, and any and all of this name-calling and maturity bashing by ALL parties involved is a major turn off, and there are multiple things that have contributed to this. Let's not worry about blame or who said what first, let's just end it here, shall we?

[Jordicus]

What is more narrow-minded? Openly discussing the topic, or actively trying to silence someone you disagree with?

an "open discussion" would mean that everyone's opinions are important, but you are off-handedly dismissing everyone's opinion but your own. that is not a discussion. you are simply standing on a soapbox.

I and everyone else here is not trying to silence your statements. but when you are the only person who agrees with your statements, maybe you are the one who is wrong..

Come back when you're matured a little.

when every single reponse of yours to other peoples posts comes across as rude, then I am not the one who has to do any maturing.

if you cannot have a civil discussion with others, then maybe you should not be part of the discussion.

take care