true seeing on avlis

[Aloro]

Ok?let?s use this example. When?if ever?.have you ever not seen Val when you have TS up? I cannot remember a single instance?.ever. Through 20 levels of playing our characters?Char has always, always, always been able to spot Val. During the year + that we have been playing this game, there may have been one occasion, but honestly?. I can?t remember it (forgive my memory ).

Fair enough. But at the same time, the True Seeing change didn't go in until a few months ago, by which point Cha'reth was already 20th, while Val was I think 15th or 16th level. Val's only caught up in levels recently, and with his current Hide, he sometimes disappears, and sometimes Cha'reth can see him. With Epic Skill Focus OR Camoflauge, Val's pretty much undetectable. With both, there's no question.

Anyways, thanks for listening and treating this as a serious issue instead of simply saying it?s already been discussed and resolved. I sincerely appreciate that.

I know we've talked about it a lot of times, and I don't want you to think I'm not listening or considering your points. I take your input very seriously, man. I wanted to chime in and address a few of your points as a means of stimulating the discussion.

- Aloro

[Titanium Dragon]

In fact it is not exactly accurate, but it is close enough for our purposes.

(Note: all of the below are out of 400)
Beat by 19: 1
Beat by 18: 3
Beat by 17: 6
Beat by 16: 10
Beat by 15: 15
Beat by 14: 21
Beat by 13: 28
Beat by 12: 36
Beat by 11: 45
Beat by 10: 55
Beat by 09: 66
Beat by 08: 78
Beat by 07: 91
Beat by 06: 105
Beat by 05: 120
Beat by 04: 136
Beat by 03: 153
Beat by 02: 171
Beat by 01: 190
Beat by 00: 210

Now, note that these are all out of 400, and note also that I am not sure if you have to beat their score or just tie them by NWN mechanics to see them. If you have to actually beat their score, move all these up by one. In the end though it makes little difference.

Lets use my earlier example of a 10th level rogue versus a 10th level cleric.

10th level rogue's skill (with CoPaP standard items): 13 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 5 = 28

10th level cleric's skill (with nothing but True Seeing and Owl's wisdom cast): 20 + 6:7 = 26:27

Thus, you use the beaten by 2 slot (lets not use the one, assuming best-case scenerio for the rogue), for a 171/400 chance of being spotted per round (a 42.75% chance of being spotted). Thus, there is a 229/400 chance of NOT being seen (57.25%)

Chances of going unseen:
Round 1: 57.25%
Round 2: 32.8%
Round 3: 18.8%
Round 4: 10.7%
Round 5: 6.2%

Assuming it takes about 30 seconds at walking speed to get by safely, you are looking at a 94% chance that you will fail to get by.

Now, lets say this rogue spends 500 gold on potions: a potion of camofluage, and a potion of cat's grace. This means he is beating the cleric by a whopping 14 points (best case scenerio).

Chance to be seen: 21/400 (5.25% per round)
Chance to not be seen: 379/400 (94.75% per round)

Chance to remain unseen:
Round 1: 94.75%
Round 2: 89.8%
Round 3: 85%
Round 4: 80.5%
Round 5: 76.3%

So, if you just tried to sneak by, you have (in the best case scenerio) a three in four chance of sucess, at the cost of 500 gold in potions (at least, if not more). This is assuming the cleric has NO spot-boosting items of any kind, the rogue got the best possible roll on cat's grace, the cleric got the worst.

If the cleric went up by 1, or the rogue's down by 1, by round five you're looking at a 69.5% chance of success. If the rogue got only a +1 on cats grace, and the priest got +2, you're looking at a 62.4% chance. If the cleric had a periapt of wisdom +1, then he could potentially get a +3 bonus due to owl's wisdom the chances of going undetected drop to 55%. All of this, still without the cleric putting a single point into spot, and having no items special for spotting people, while the rogue just used 500+ gold of potions.

If the cleric has spot boosting items, you're looking at having a mere 1 in 3 chance of sneaking by, even after chugging your potions, in the best case scenerio. In the worse-case scenerio, you've got a whopping 16.8% chance of success of staying hidden for five rounds. Thus, you have a less than 1 in 6 chance of success.

This is all just for five rounds. If you should (gods forbid) want to try and follow them to spy on them, you might as well not bother; only if you are beating them by at least 19 is it even worth considering for any real length of time.

Note also that the above odds are for a single 10th level rouge versus a single 10th level cleric. Your odds get a LOT worse with two, and the more of them there are, the worse it gets.

[Bear]

I know we've talked about it a lot of times, and I don't want you to think I'm not listening or considering your points. I take your input very seriously, man. I wanted to chime in and address a few of your points as a means of stimulating the discussion.
- Aloro

No, I was serious for the thanks. I honestly appreciate that we can discuss and consider this issue.

Bear

[eNTrOpY]

The one thing about the 2 skill points/level that TS gives that I've never liked is the following:

Rogues/Rangers can only stick 1 in per level +3(first level). The edited True Seeing gives 2 per level. As levels go up, True Seeing user's spot points basically shoot past the hide points of rogues and rangers unless they have some major skill boosting gear.

The argument for 2/level was that you had to offset the skill boosting gear to give clerics and mages a chance to detect them. The problem with 2/level is that at higher levels, it's no longer giving them a chance, it's given them an almost certain chance unless the rogue/ranger has lots of skill boosting items, sticks a few feats towards helping his skill and chugs a potion of midnight airs.

Personally, I think 3 points/2 levels would be a better bonus for True Seeing to give to spot. It will still offset skill boosting gear BUT won't give clerics and mages a riduculous chance to detect rogues and rangers at higher levels.

[Titanium Dragon]

TD,

1. Time is distorted in NWN for all classes, both for the cleric with TS and for the rogue Hiding and standing next to him for, as you point out, hours on end.

That doesn't help the rogue too much though. Helps you a lot

2. As I said before, both TS and Hide are only approximations of the actual powers both classes have. It's not unreasonable (though not ideal) that a rogue should only expect to hide for a few moments from an equal-level spellcaster looking for him. A higher-level rogue should, and does, have an easier time against a lower-level spellcaster. Hide used properly means moving away or striking fast, not staying next to that person for a whole turn. You have to be incredibly better than the person you're trying to beat to stay next to them for turns on end.

Problem is, clerics/wizards/sorcerers ALWAYS have TS up in my experience. I'll stand there talking to them, and if it goes on long enough they'll cast it again and again, rest, and do it over.

The system as is does this. I cannot spot higher level rogues with TS. Rogues near my level will get spotted if they hang around too long.

3. You're ignoring that higher-level rogues get plenty of superior gear not available in stores from their guilds and DM quests.

I wanted to turn Jake into a stealth character, if not a shadowdancer, very badly. My old mentor in the Army, Drake, was a master at sneaking, and many of our missions involved it. I would like to take his place doing so, but the Army doesn't give out superior stealth gear so...scratch that. If the impact of gear on the skill were lowered, however, I'd be all over it.

I'm talking same level, not higher. And really, you still have a very good chance of spotting higher-level people unless they are sporting good gear, which will become progressively rarer as time goes on.

[eNTrOpY]

Wow, TD has a lot of time on his hands

Nice statistical analysis.

Also note that in the examples that TD gave, that to get those chances the rogue had to drink potions. This of course leads to becoming unhiden because in NWN, all characters must make very loud slurping noises when drinking down their delicious potions. ie. automatically turns off stealth to drink a potion.

[Halvar Yanocen]

Thanks for the math TD but Is the official formula for TS 2*caster level?
In that case it seems to be buggy since my char gets 5 points per caster lvl.

[TheElvenKing]

As a player with an epic level stealth character I thought I'd weigh in here with my thoughts.

I have spent the majority of my time grooming my main to be a stealthy character, and have also had the good fortune of being very lucky with regards to the equipment I've obtained for him in my 8+ months here. Now, in order to maximize his stealth potential I wear those hide and move silent items all the time, without fail. This does mean I take a hit in other areas, particularily AC and saving throws; however, this is the compromise I have accepted in order to have a stealthy character and I'm fine with it.

What does burn me is that a character of much lower levels with True Seeing up and a few points in spot and/or spot boosting items negates pretty much every feat, skill and item I can use to flesh out my character concept. By definition, rangers and rogues are usually very stealthy characters; it is the nature of the classes and they are given bonuses accordingly. However, their ability to counterdetect other hidden creatures is poor even though you would think those who train to be stealthy would also know best how to counteract it. At level 20, my PC had maxed spot/listen at 23, with +1 added for wisdom bonus and another +2 to both for racial bonus: elf. That gives a base of 26 to spot/listen, which is basically useless against characters greater than half his level.

From my experience, the maximum possible skill totals of a level 20 rogue in Avlis with gear devoted to such is as follows.

Hide:

Feat (Stealthy) - 2
Feat (Skill Focus Hide) - 3
Level 20 ranks - 23
Dexterity bonus (based on Dex of 16 at creation) - 11
Cloak of Elvenkind - 10
Robes of Blending - 15
Potion of Midnight Airs - 10
Camouflage (item, scroll or potion) - 10

Total - 84

Move Silent:

Feat (Stealthy) - 2
Feat (Skill Focus Move Silent) - 3
Level 20 Ranks - 23
Dexterity bonues - 11
Boots of Elvenkind - 10
Potion of Midnight Airs - 10

Total - 59


Now, you may be thinking that 84 is not bad at all, and it is very decent. However, I don't know of anyone who has burned 3 feats in order to get an extra +5 to hide/move silent. Also, as eNTrOpY pointed out slamming down a potion unstealths your character which means the act of sneaking basically pointless. Since those potions and non-Ranger camouflage users have a fairly short duration, the ability to rely on those potions is suspect at best. Which means the hide skill of a well equipped rogue at level 20 is more between 60-70.

However, take a Level 20 cleric or even a multiclassed rogue/wizard with True Seeing up and a few ranks in spot and the above advantages are reduced to basically nil. My experience with beating the spot checks of similar level casters has not been that successful, and I have been fairly lucky in terms of how I equip my character. I don't see a younger player having the same fortune however, which means the current system will inherently stack the odds in the favour of True Seeing users time after time.

Just my opinion,
TEK

[keikobad]

TD,

1. Time is distorted in NWN for all classes, both for the cleric with TS and for the rogue Hiding and standing next to him for, as you point out, hours on end.

That doesn't help the rogue too much though. Helps you a lot

Oh? So, not adjusting the DC for the hours you are lingering at someone's side until they finally receive a secret shipment, or the hours spent listening to an entire strategy discussion among the Ebony Order doesn't help your master rogue one whit? Once you beat their TS Spot + 20 roll, you have a license to be ridiculous. "I'm gonna pickpocket his pants."

Let's be straight, this whole discussion only pertains to CvC (not in the sense of fighting, but of competing). None of this matters to romping through dungeons, DM quests, etc... (If a DM wants you to beat another PCs Spot, you'll be given the means to do so.)

This is all just for five rounds. If you should (gods forbid) want to try and follow them to spy on them, you might as well not bother; only if you are beating them by at least 19 is it even worth considering for any real length of time.

That's a good example of how many folks would like to use this skill. Now, consider two cases:

1. The rogue is trying to snoop on two people hastily moving through a forest to exchange some information and leave quickly.

2. The rogue is trying to snoop on an important strategy discussion being conducted by the M'Chek army deep inside a fortified keep.

How is the DC for the rogue's Hide affected by the vastly different circumstances? Only area lighting is taken into effect.

You can bet that, in PnP, #2 would be impossible to pull off for anything but the most gifted and blessed spy. Any army spellcasters would have a ton of safeguards up.

So, a bonus to TS averages out the situations. Your rogue carries around potions, etc. and waits for the right opportunity.

I'm talking same level, not higher. And really, you still have a very good chance of spotting higher-level people unless they are sporting good gear, which will become progressively rarer as time goes on.

You continue to assume that rogues aren't meant to get good gear through guilds and quests. That's not something either of us can say: only the Team. As it is right now, high-level rogues have no shortage of gear.

Your math is good, but they are based on many assumptions. The hide bonus from items you use is lower than what I see from current store bought items, for example. You know the danger of assumptions....

[Vergilius]

At level 20, my PC had maxed spot/listen at 23, with +1 added for wisdom bonus and another +2 to both for racial bonus: elf. That gives a base of 26 to spot/listen, which is basically useless against characters greater than half his level.

I've noticed the same thing with my elf, who has maxed spot/listen.

[WrathOG777]

So, we can sum this up as...

It is way too easy to raise hide/move silent through gear and/or much too hard to raise spot/listen through gear. And Truesight is not the answer.

I make this assumeing a few things.
-A rogue specialized in finding stealthers should be able too. Current gear availability breaks this. Stealth gear is much easier to get than hunter gear.
-Someone with NO skill in spot and listen should not be finding someone with max ranks in move silent and hide, all else being equal. True sight breaks this.

[Bear]

Let's be straight, this whole discussion only pertains to CvC (not in the sense of fighting, but of competing). None of this matters to romping through dungeons, DM quests, etc... (If a DM wants you to beat another PCs Spot, you'll be given the means to do so.)

Yes, but not entirely true. There are monsters with true-seeing (Vampires, Umber-Hulks, etc.)

That's a good example of how many folks would like to use this skill. Now, consider two cases:

1. The rogue is trying to snoop on two people hastily moving through a forest to exchange some information and leave quickly.

But even this rudimentary ability is not currently possible. You get spotted easily right from the start, or quickly thereafter. Do I want it to be fair so that people who take the time to put ranks in the skill, and buy up the equipment, and choose to switch it out have a chance to spot rogues? Absolutely? But, suddenly you?ve taken a class with no real spotting ability, and made them the pre-eminient spotters by simply clicking a button every 16 minutes or so.

You can bet that, in PnP, #2 would be impossible to pull off for anything but the most gifted and blessed spy. Any army spellcasters would have a ton of safeguards up.

Exactly. Spellcasters should have to put up a ton of safeguards to spot characters?.. Casters should put ranks in the skill, buy the items, switch them out, and cast +spot spells?in order to catch people doing this. Right now they simply click a button every 16 minutes or so.

Your math is good, but they are based on many assumptions. The hide bonus from items you use is lower than what I see from current store bought items, for example.

Keep in mind that the one +5 hide item that can be bought in Le?Or is a suit of medium armor (Elvish Chain?). Because the suit is medium there is a dex adjustment down. I think the net result is 3.

Notwitstanding what is currently available in the Avlis markets the numbers pretty clearly show that a rogue with superior items, will get spotted by a caster with no items (not a rogue, or ranger as it should be) with almost 100% probability. The rogue will need to go and find amazing equipment, the rogue will need to spend at least 2 skill points per level (1 hiding/1 move silently), the rogue will need to take 2 feats (skill focus, and epic skill focus)?the caster will need to click a button about every 16 minutes?..

[keikobad]

Yep, that's the worst side-effect of the hide boosting gear and potions. Those same master rogues that can hide from anything couldn't see themselves in the mirror, or each other, though they're supposed to be just as good at spotting as at hiding.

It'd be nice to bring down all the item and spell bonuses-- but very tricky.

[Bear]

So, we can sum this up as...

It is way too easy to raise hide/move silent through gear and/or much too hard to raise spot/listen through gear. And Truesight is not the answer.

I make this assumeing a few things.
-A rogue specialized in finding stealthers should be able too. Current gear availability breaks this. Stealth gear is much easier to get than hunter gear.
-Someone with NO skill in spot and listen should not be finding someone with max ranks in move silent and hide, all else being equal. True sight breaks this.

Yes, thank you. Very well said.

Bear

[Nob]

You can bet that, in PnP, #2 would be impossible to pull off for anything but the most gifted and blessed spy. Any army spellcasters would have a ton of safeguards up.

Exactly. Spellcasters should have to put up a ton of safeguards to spot characters?.. Casters should put ranks in the skill, buy the items, switch them out, and cast +spot spells?in order to catch people doing this. Right now they simply click a button every 16 minutes or so.

You're missing the point oh so completely on this one.

Keik's saying that any competent spell-caster room would have a diviner or other mage that has specific spells like Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound(detects ANYTHING including ethereal and invisible creatures within 30 ft), detect hiding, etc etc which would make hiding completley useless MUCH more easily than any spot bonus ever would.

Right now, you can sit on the middle of the road in stealth mode and no one can find you, that's ridiculous and quite frankly stupid.

[Vergilius]

Keik's saying that any competent spell-caster room would have a diviner or other mage that has specific spells like Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound(detects ANYTHING including ethereal and invisible creatures within 30 ft), detect hiding, etc etc which would make hiding completley useless MUCH more easily than any spot bonus ever would.

Right now, you can sit on the middle of the road in stealth mode and no one can find you, that's ridiculous and quite frankly stupid.

I'll agree with this. There are a lot of things in this game that simply don't make sense. Ultimately, we have to do the best we can with it.

Personally, I think there are some important issues in this thread, but I think there is also a lot of "the grass is always greener on the other side"

[Reinstag]

*scans through the tread and sees a lot of numbers...eyes glaze over*

*gets to the end and makes sure he isn't in the R&R before posting*

Okay. Lets ignore numbers and lets look at what is physicaly supposed to be happening when a PC (rogue/ranger/etc) go into stealth mode.

The PC slips into the shadows.
They crouch down and sneak through the grass.
They cross a road when no one is looking.
They run across rooftops and spring across the alley ways.
They slip through the crowded streets letting the mass hide them.
They move through the rafters over people's heads.

Now, why don't you see any of this in game? Because of limitations of the game engine and a need for streamlined gameplay.
Your avatar cannot crouch down in the grass to give himself some real cover.
Characters have 360 degree vision because of the way the camera works.
You cannot move across roof tops unless the lag is really bad or your an NPC in Ferrell.
If the cities on Avlis were as populated with NPCs as they are supposed to be, no one could walk anywhere and the lag would be horrendous.
No interiors have a ceiling.

True Seeing was changed to bring it closer to what the PnP version does: See through all magical forms of concealment and disguise. The PnP version also clearly states that it will NOT see through an object. Period.

The NWN and Avlis versions of the spell give a PC some kind of X-Ray vision to see through the numerous barriers that the game engine can't render. You can clearly see through the grass someone is hiding behind, you can see through a wall and roof as someone moves by overhead, you can see through people to spot the guy trying to hide in the crowd and you can see through the wooden rafters for the guy listening in on you cyber-sex session.

Are we beating a dead horse? Yes we are. But sometimes their is a damn good reason to keep beating it. I've read the arguments on two other threads and I'm still not satisfied. And I doubt anyone on either side of the debate has changed their minds.

*shuts up before he says some things that would get this moved to the R&R forums*

[Reinstag]

2. The rogue is trying to snoop on an important strategy discussion being conducted by the M'Chek army deep inside a fortified keep.

How is the DC for the rogue's Hide affected by the vastly different circumstances? Only area lighting is taken into effect.

You can bet that, in PnP, #2 would be impossible to pull off for anything but the most gifted and blessed spy. Any army spellcasters would have a ton of safeguards up.

*puts on his area building hat*
Little used feature in the tool set is the ability to make an area give a bonus or a negative to all Spot or Listen checks (each modifiable independantly) in that area. So the example given above would be negated IF the area builder took into account that the place should be well lit or have specific accostics.

Wide open fields: Bonus to spot check.
Forest: Negative to spot checks.
Dark caverns: Negatives to spot, bonus to listen.

[Gorgon]

Wide open fields: Bonus to spot check.
Forest: Negative to spot checks.
Dark caverns: Negatives to spot, bonus to listen.

I'd leave the fields alone. Unless everyone has a lawn mower or the fields are bare of crops, the grass and other vegetation are quite good cover. I know the animation of a stealth character is a walking one but he would really be moving on the ground. Anyone with some training knows how to use the vegetation to blend into the grass (army training is a good example). The other two make sense.


This still doesn't fix true seeing, but I'll deal with whatever is decided. I just assume I have no chance vs. any equal or higher level character with true seeing up.

A few good ideas have been suggested already. I liked reducing the bonus to something like 3/2 levels and also offering more spot items. If someone wants the ability, they can have it if they try. 2nd choice is reducing the duration of the spell to something a bit harder to maintain 24/7. Or both. Yes this is from a stealth player but I would vote for the same, if not more cuts if I was a cleric. Broken is broken.

[WrathOG777]

I am one of the mages that uses true seeing. It is to stop from getting pickpocketed and so I can see at night. It really makes a huge differance in places like deglos. I still completely agree that it should be severly reduced. No skill in spot is no skill in spot. NO skill = no see. I would like to see the bonus dropped to 1 spot per lvl with immunity to illusion the effect trueseeing adds instead, as it should.

Then, at 20th, a mage would have +20, vs a +23 of a fully skilled stealther. Then vs the high gear and dex the steather would get by. OR if the mage spent skill points in spot and put on an item or two, they would see folks.

Also, that would put the rogue that specialized in detection just a wee bit of an edge on casters.

[Titanium Dragon]

My personal vote would be to put in detection spells for mages that last a short time and eliminate the TS bonus to spot.

Is that harder? Yes.
Does it require a custom tlk file? Yes.
But aren't we going to require one anyway? Yes.

So it doesn't really make a difference.

I also vote for spot-enhancing equipment. Examples?

Helm that gives +10 spot (or something like that); some DMs give them away occasionally.

Item that casts a spot/listen boosting spell 1x/day, again given away by the DMs periodically.

Ect.

Once you've given away a number of these (not so many, but enough), take away the spot bonus to TS. This would mean that people who really wanted to see others would have to sacrifice their AC a bit, but at least they COULD.

Ideally, you'd be looking at spot scores in the 50s on people with DM equipment, which will trump people without the very good hide equipment (which is also DM given) and will give them a bit of a chance against the uber hiders.

What would be an interesting spell (I'm not sure if it would work though) would be an area effect spell that revealed all hiders. You'd cast it at some location, and it would reveal all hiding within say 5-8 meters of that point. It would require a bit of thought on the mage's part, and a bit of guesswork, and be something like a 5th or 6th level spell. Thus, if they can outsmart trackers, they could reveal them, but they'd have to guess where they are generally AND cast the spell.

[Alexandru Stanicu]

Thanks for the math TD but Is the official formula for TS 2*caster level?
In that case it seems to be buggy since my char gets 5 points per caster lvl.

it is 2/level. It looks like 5 because their is min adjustement. (ie bonis us X+2/lvl)

I think that we need to adjust this again. I feel that the spot bonus is too high.

[Vergilius]

It looks like TD is on the right track for this one. A. introduce appropriate spot equipment first so the dedicated detectors can actually do their job. B. Then drop the true-sight bonus. 3/2levels is very reasonable.

[Pekarion]

I met a cleric that had +10spot/listen because of his chosen domain? Is this right?

and I don't know about what most clerics or mages actual spot is, but I know for a fact that my char went from a practially invisible char to now a success rate of 70/30% around people my lvl or higher. of course earlier that was a huuge advantage for me, both in rp and general gameplay, but I sacrificied alot of skill points and effort getting my rogue to where he is, wherence if a cleric offered the same in spot/listen, he would earn my utmost respect, but with bear calculations It looks a little bit easy. I'm probably just whining for a stealth rogue being hidden is the alfa and the omega
ps. the new TS did deliver heavy blows to PP atleast, and regrettably, that was probably a good thing

[kokobil]

Having read the whole thread i say that the current system is unfair to rogues and should be changed.

P.S.1 Great analysis Titanium Dragon !
P.S.2 I am not a rogue myself