How high can your Hide/Spot go?

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:34 pm

Just curious- I know a lot of rogues were happy that True Sight no longer shows them hiding, but it still gives a heck of a bonus. My lvl 10 Cleric gets a Spot of 35 with TS, with no skill pts in Spot and no extra buffs. So he could get 40 easy. Can the rogues really keep up with that?

I'm assuming you'd need 20 pts more in Hide to always beat a Spot, and I guess 10pts higher would be good enough for sneaking up to someone quickly.

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:43 pm

+10 for Camoflauge, and +10 for Potion of Midnight Airs puts me at a little over 40, and my char's only level 11. If I get my hands on a cloak of elvenkind again, that's about 50. I can also get an easy +4 for One with the Land but I generally prefer Cat's Grace as my only 2nd level spell. I get another +4, I think, for being in 'Natural' areas (anything that's not a city or building interior, pretty much), as a Ranger. If I really want to get my hide skill as high as possible without using items it's at 50... probably exactly 50.

So, to answer your question, it is very very easy, especially for Rangers or anyone with the old Le'Or equipment.

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:03 pm

My character, without spells or potions, can get a Hide and MS of about 45.

So, as far as rogues keeping up with the new TS, not really. Rangers have plenty of spells to get their Hide bonus way up there (as Brick pointed out) but rogues have to rely on thier raw skills and gear mainly. They can use scrolls (if they are lucky enough to make the UMD check) to buff themselves, but scrolls have a pretty low duration when compared to most casters.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:06 pm

I think more important would be beating a move silent/listen check against most classes, since spot isn't as much a class skill.

2 low-level spells can jack up your listen by 30, majority of items also seem to favor increasing hide.

With TS, Clairvoyance and something else you could probably get spots way up in the 60's though if you had any skill points in it.

Underhill · Post by **Underhill** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:39 pm

Yeah, your straight rogue's got no shot against TS. Thing is, once you're noticed, you're noticed. Your spot or listen doesn't need to be high enough to match a hide/MS, it just needs to be high enough to have a chance of success. Rein and I spent some time the other night doing the experiments. Lightfoot's spot/listen is nowhere near Timo's hide/MS, but LF in detect mode was catching him fairly quickly. If you plan on not getting detected, I'd recommend having a hide/MS 20 pts higher than the watcher's spot/listen. The key to sneaking past characters using TS is to use the emote *sneak, sneak, sneak* and hope they're polite enough to look the other way.

Nightface · Post by **Nightface** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:53 am

Without TS, Tanmar has a Spot of 11. With TS up, 49. (a +38 bonus? WTF?) If I use my family helmet, that goes to 54. This is for a 19th level cleric who actually put some points into Spot.

Why is TS giving a Spot bonus, anyway? The main weakness of this fairly powerful spell is that it can only pierce magical concealment/illusion, not mundane (which includes sneaking).

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:48 am

Underhill wrote:Yeah, your straight rogue's got no shot against TS. Thing is, once you're noticed, you're noticed. Your spot or listen doesn't need to be high enough to match a hide/MS, it just needs to be high enough to have a chance of success. Rein and I spent some time the other night doing the experiments. Lightfoot's spot/listen is nowhere near Timo's hide/MS, but LF in detect mode was catching him fairly quickly. If you plan on not getting detected, I'd recommend having a hide/MS 20 pts higher than the watcher's spot/listen. The key to sneaking past characters using TS is to use the emote *sneak, sneak, sneak* and hope they're polite enough to look the other way.

I think Underhill has it pegged., the current bonus TS grants far exceeds any possible chance of defeating it.

Glok

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:58 pm

Nightface wrote:Why is TS giving a Spot bonus, anyway? The main weakness of this fairly powerful spell is that it can only pierce magical concealment/illusion, not mundane (which includes sneaking).

I believe the reason for the spot bonus is that without it, True Seeing turns into a pretty useless spell, basically lvl 6 version of See Invisibility. As there are no magically concealed secret doors and the like in Avlis, the piercing of magical concealment is not nearly as useful, especially when see invis will get let you see people using such spells to hide. The spot bonus actually makes it a spell still worth having.

That being said, the spot bonus currently given by the modified spell is much too large. A bonus of +1/level or perhaps +2/3levels, as opposed to the +2/level currently in place, would probably much better. Still gives mages a chance to spot people sneaking, but also gives rogues a chance to actually sneak successfully.

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:57 pm

eNTrOpY wrote:
Nightface wrote:Why is TS giving a Spot bonus, anyway? The main weakness of this fairly powerful spell is that it can only pierce magical concealment/illusion, not mundane (which includes sneaking).
I believe the reason for the spot bonus is that without it, True Seeing turns into a pretty useless spell, basically lvl 6 version of See Invisibility..

With True Seeing, you should be immune to all illusions (Wierd, Blindness, Phantasmal Killer, and Color Spray), Darkness, Improved Invisibility, Sanctuary, and magical concealment (Blurr and Displacement). Hardly useless in my opinion.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:37 pm

Reinstag wrote:
eNTrOpY wrote:
Nightface wrote:Why is TS giving a Spot bonus, anyway? The main weakness of this fairly powerful spell is that it can only pierce magical concealment/illusion, not mundane (which includes sneaking).
I believe the reason for the spot bonus is that without it, True Seeing turns into a pretty useless spell, basically lvl 6 version of See Invisibility..
With True Seeing, you should be immune to all illusions (Wierd, Blindness, Phantasmal Killer, and Color Spray), Darkness, Improved Invisibility, Sanctuary, and magical concealment (Blurr and Displacement). Hardly useless in my opinion.

The key word is should ! Does this really happen in NWN ?

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:47 pm

I dunno. But it sure shouldn't give you +2/level of spot; that's excessively powerful. +1/level would be much more reasonable; +40 means that you can spot someone who has 40 ranks in hide, which necessitates massive magical enhancements, and possibily someone as high as 59 ranks in hide. That's just gross, given that you had to spend no skill points to do so and use up no magic items, whereas they are using a potion of midnight aires, have spent 23 skill points, are wearing a cloak of hide bonus, and have upped their dexterity as much as possible.

Of course, if you made it negate stuff like blur, then it would be fine without the spot bonus.

ZurrLock · Post by **ZurrLock** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:57 pm

Hm, what if TS gave spell immunity illusion for the duration? that should at least in theory fix most of it, then make it so that someone with TS utterly ignores all miss chances, and you're ready to go. In any way the current spot bonus is way too big... on a high magic world it would perhaps work out, but on Avlis? Not likely for most rogues, who basically depend on their sneak to get along.

Of course this is all with CvC in mind, as most monsters dont use the spell TS... but what about the ones with innate? Do they too get a massive spot bonus or?

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:11 pm

TS already gives Spell Immunity: Illusion. Sadly, the way NWN is implemented, this is FAR less effective than it is in PnP. There are a handful of spells that are affected by this ability, not including such things as Invisibility and Improved Invisibility. There are no Permanent Illusions in NWN, nor Programmed Images, nor anything like that which you could in theory see through using this ability.

If you have innate TS, you don't get the Spot bonus. This makes it a lot easier to manually adjust creatures' Spot modifiers for various situations.

- Aloro

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:21 pm

I'm not sure this issue is as straight-forward as everyone is making it out to be.

The argument is not quite as simple as comparing a 20th level cleric vs a 20th level rogue for the simple reason that most chars on avlis are not 20th level.

the argument is blurred again by the distinction of NWN and DND. I just busted out the players handbook, there are a lot of TS effects that are difficult to replicate in the NWN engine. In the computer version, the restraints necessitated some type of defence against stealth and bioflubs apparently chose TS as the means to fix this. Unfortunately, there are many who believe they went too far, and thus the team decided it was in our best interests to move the NWN spell closer to its PNP roots. Where things are blurry is in the distinction between computer based and PNP gaming.

To illustrate this, look at the threads running around on the boards in the past weeks: There is this one which is basically a few people saying TS is still overpowered. Then there are others talking about rogues stealing from characters with impunity.

The balance to be had is what makes things so incredibly difficult: In the computer game, players do need some kind of defense against stealth. Otherwise, the game becomes one-sided and the fun goes down the tubes real fast. This defense must in turn be balanced against the skills itself, which should actually be very useful.

I don't personally think there is a good solution to the matter. The PNP rules were designed with explicit regard for a campaign run by a DM. The NWN adjust these rules in both good and bad ways for computer based gaming. However, both sets of rules are NOT designed with explicit regard to an online persistent world with 1000s of players that would interact with one another on a daily basis. Since we have PNP rules and an engine that are quite restricted, and a PW that perhaps needs other considerations in mind, we are quite limited in what can be done to give ALL players the greatest gaming experience and maximum amount of fun.

In this regard, I do not follow a legalistic interpretation of the rules. ONe that says we must get the rules as close as possible to what the book says. In my opinion, that ignores other qualifying circumstances and totally ignores maximizing the fun of all involved players.

Also consider, in the above examples, we have used some examples both extreme and rare to support the arguments. There are numerous circumstances that affect hide/move silently, spot/listen and ultimate ability to detect. Additionally, the value of the TS will be different all across the different classes that can cast it. The examples above have Clerics casting TS. Wisdom will probably be very high and SPOT is a wis based skill. TS+Wis=higher spot than normal.

Anyway, I'm not really for one or the other. I play a Cleric who can cast TS and I enjoy the effects. I also play an archer with some points in Hide/Move Silently, although she generally isn't the most sneaky person around. So I come at from both ends. I just want to remind everyone of the "bigger" picture involved in the balance of one little silly spell.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:35 pm

Theoretical rogue bous for sneaking:

24 (base) + 5 (dex 20) + 6 (amulett of the master, buyable) + 10 (boots/ cloak of elvenkind on hide or MS) + x (various rogues armors wich are around) + 4 (dex boost by Kao Kao powder) + 10 (or so from potion of midnight airs)
gives a thoretical +59 sneak... give or take a few for a lvl 20 rogue.

+2 spot/lvl for TS isn't too much... I doupt that many clerics run around with more wis the 20 + 5 (amulett) for a bonus on spot of +7

Of course this is an extreme excample, but a few of the things mentioned above are around and in use!

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:41 pm

With a 20th level character, that TS gives +40 to spot. That means that they have a whopping +47 or so to spot (with the wis bonus), which is pretty gross given that they spent exactly 0 points on the spot skill and yet are apparently better at it (by nearly twice as much!) as rangers and other classes with spot as a class skill and run around like that all the time.

Also, you're looking at the rogue having to spend around how much gold to get that effect, versus the cleric spending exactly nothing?

Post by **Urizen** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:55 pm

My Lvl7 fighter has a spot of...um...zero, and has been ripped off of three magic items in two days. I'm gonna find me one of those 20th level clerics to pal around with and see if things keep getting stolen from me.

Nightface · Post by **Nightface** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:58 pm

Vergilius, I love when you post. You're one of the people who's posts are always well-thought out enough that I enjoy reading them, even if I disagree with parts or all of it.

Let's face it, there will never be a solution that makes everybody happy. Either people are being stolen from, or rogues are having one of their primary abilities nerfed. Somebody loses. As a player who has a very sneaky rogue, and a high spot cleric, I say let the rogues keep one of the abilities that makes them unique and worth playing. Granted, with the power of Shadowdancers creeping into the world, the balancing act gets even more difficult, but I'd rather everybody have a chance at using their characters attributes to the maximum. It pisses me off whenever every Tom, Dick, or Harry can see me sneaking around, and I feel like a cheating bastich when a DM driven Shadowdancer gets screwed because I have TS up. Bear in mind, I can be a bit of a purist in regard to PnP rules, so opinions may vary.

Right now, IMO, the TS Spot bonus is a little much. Others may agree or disagree, but in the end, I have no idea which side is "right". All I know is, the rogues were meant to be sneaky, and the current TS makes that too difficult to accomplish. Yes, with the "right" gear, it can be done, but how available is this gear? Not very, to my knowledge, and what is out there is undoubtedly very expensive.

-shrug- My two cents.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:07 pm

just a reminder..

as stated in another thread somewhere, we are attempting to find a fix to the pickpocketing issues.. Unfortunately, it is a much tougher situation.

Other than that, feedback is helpful as it allows us to make adjustments as we go.

thanks.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:21 pm

Nightface wrote:Vergilius, I love when you post. You're one of the people who's posts are always well-thought out enough that I enjoy reading them, even if I disagree with parts or all of it.

Thanks

Today it looks like we agreed.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:51 pm

From DaoC to this argument, it sees completely impossible to make class-based CvC fair. A shame.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:05 am

Gairus wrote:From DaoC to this argument, it seems completely impossible to make class-based CvC fair. A shame.

Thats exactly it and has been said 1000x on the boards. DND was not meant to be played CvC. NWN was not designed with PW CvC in mind. The classes have not been designed with any semblanced of balance and that was intentionally. The only "balance" changes per se have largely been done with respect to choice and class concept. For example, look at what was made from 3.0 to 3.5. The Ranger changes were based on class concept. You may agree or disagree on how effectively they brought those out, but thats a separate issue. Choice refers to how free a player feels to choose the various classes. If one class is so ridiculously overpowered that everyone feels that they must choose it in order to compete with their peers, then something is wrong with the balance. By the same token, If one class is so ridiculously underpowered that is consistently overlooked in favor of the others, then something is again wrong. This is the case in point with the Barb. There are like 2-3 pure Barbs on the Avlis servers, a pitiful representation compared to the other classes out there. changes to the Barb from 3.0 to 3.5 were largely to give the Barb a couple of extra things so people would again feel free to choose him without getting the shaft end of the classes.

In fact, your comment about CvC just reminds me of another reason why the hide/move sil vs TS debate has little value: the % of game that is actually CvC vs the amount that is not.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:11 am

You can still have plenty of fun if you're on the wrong side of unfair... just so long as you know that's what to expect

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:11 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:With a 20th level character, that TS gives +40 to spot. That means that they have a whopping +47 or so to spot (with the wis bonus), which is pretty gross given that they spent exactly 0 points on the spot skill and yet are apparently better at it (by nearly twice as much!) as rangers and other classes with spot as a class skill and run around like that all the time.

Also, you're looking at the rogue having to spend around how much gold to get that effect, versus the cleric spending exactly nothing?

yeah but they have to use a God's power to do so. Magic is stronger than physicak in DnD. Thats how it always has been. My stealth character should be able to still hide.