Use Magic Device

kagouro2003 · Post by **kagouro2003** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:40 am

Seems strange to me so I 'll post it. I believed that the Use Magic Device was the ability required for a rogue (or bard perhaps although it should be strictly rogue according to AD&D rules). This means that a rogue of a certain ability in this skill should be able to cast certain spells from scrolls.

I believe that since it was broken (easily a 7th level rogue could cast premonition a 9th level spell that would require an 18th level mage to cast normally) it was changed. There were also case mentioned where a single level mage with many levels of fighter could also do the same, which frankly is beyond ridiculous.

I was suprised however to see my 3 level cleric, normally able to cast a resist elements spell, FAIL at a scroll Use Magic Device Roll of this spell. Could it be I am missing information here? Is it possible that now everyone needs the UMD skill? Is it possible that a cleric or mage may be able to cast the spell normally but unable to cast it via scroll depending on their UMD skill?

It's a simple question. I usually don't think twice about it after answered and follow the flow.

kag

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:05 am

For casters who can normally use a spell, now they have to do a spellcraft check when they use a scroll, not UMD. The failure message is misleading... it's actually failing a spellcraft check (spellcraft checks are easier than UMD checks, btw, by 5 points).

Strange that your cleric failed a scroll that they could normally cast...

UMD is useless for scrolls now for rogues that don't specialise in it (and if you're going to do that... why not just be a spellcaster?), but the script (if the Team is using the one I'm thinking of) also does spellcraft checks for casters. UMD is still useful to rogues for using devices (though you need to have it pretty high to even use wands and such now), but that too may change in the future. I really hope not though.

Everyone agrees it was unbalancing before, and that's been addressed with this UMD script. IMHO it's gone a bit far the other way now... my rogue can't use the low level scrolls I had her using before as part of her character (specifically Darkness).. it'd be nice to have it wound back a little, so low level scrolls are accessible while high level scrolls remain inaccessible... sigh... I'll stop beating this very dead horse right now.

Either way, it's not that important, and I'll keep happily playing my rogue with or without Darkness

__

Edit: high level scrolls remain INaccessible..

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:27 am

Would it adress the clerics issue if a caster added his level as spellcaster to the check? Means, eg, even lvl 17 clerics who didn't raise spellcraft have a chance to use their lvl 2 scrolls.....

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:06 am

the check on a scroll should only occur if the spell on the scroll is higher level than you can currently cast. So a 17th level cleric should be able to use any scroll without a check (as the cleric can cast a 9th level spell inately).

As for the UMD the DC checks are not that bad. DC25 or so for most things if my memory serves. So you need a fair number of skillpoints in it but not an obscene amount. A high level rogue (lvl 19-20) can easily have a +25 bonus to this skill so I don't see what the problem is. In AD&D using scrolls and stuff did not come until lvl 10 or so, again if memory serves.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:30 am

Spell Singer wrote: As for the UMD the DC checks are not that bad. DC25 or so for most things if my memory serves.

For anyone interested that's not on the Rogue board (I went over the calculations there)... it's 25+spell level. Spell level is either Innate level (e.g. stoneskin innate level = 4) or caster level (normally scrolls are at the bottom level they can be cast, so stoneskin level = 8 I think), depending on which script is used.
So stoneskin has a DC of 29 or 33. Summon Creature IX is either 34 or 43. Light has a DC of 25. Fireball is DC 28 or 31.
And no taking 20, you always roll.
Some UMD scripts are tougher than others in other ways as well... some of them do several checks. Int or Wis or Cha not high enough? DC check against the difference. Class wrong? DC check. Then do another UMD check to see if you succeed. So the chance of failure is compounded.
Others just do the DC check for success on scrolls. Don't know which one Avlis is using, but from the high failure rate I've seen it seems to be one of the tougher scripts.

Sounds like a bug in the script if it is doing UMD/SC checks on spells you should be able to cast normally... I'm pretty sure that's not meant to do that.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:05 pm

I found a scroll for a spell my cleric can already cast, and by chance, I was like, what the heck, found it, might as well use it.

It cast the spell, but it did say UMD success. Dont' know if it actually made th check or if that was part of the script, but I don't like the sound of failing scrolls for spells I already can innately cast, even if I've never been big on scrolls as a player.

verg~

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:29 pm

In the 3.5 version of the player handbook Use Magical Device is both a bard and a rogue skill.

The DCs are as follows:

Activate blindly DC 25
Decipher Scroll DC 25+spell level
Use a Scroll DC 20+caster level
Use a wand DC 20
Emulate a class feature DC 20
Emulate a race DC 25
Emulate an alignment DC 30
Emulate an ablitiy score value is (Modified Die Roll - 15)

So I do not see what the trouble is so long as the script is using these numbers. Most features are not so hard to do for a rogue specialized in this sort of thing.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:20 pm

DOn't foget that there are two things to consider here:
1. UMD skill for rogues
2. A magic user (mage or cleric or bard) using a scroll - I don't think this uses UMD skill, probably spellcraft ?

Cazaton · Post by **Cazaton** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:12 am

OH GOD. All that money... gone... if you only knew the number of scrolls my poor chracter has stockpiled for a "rainy day". I went to go use a summon scroll the other day during a fight and was very distrough when I found it didn't work... sigh. Anyone need finger of death???

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:51 am

Dirk Cutlass wrote:DOn't foget that there are two things to consider here:
1. UMD skill for rogues
2. A magic user (mage or cleric or bard) using a scroll - I don't think this uses UMD skill, probably spellcraft ?

The caster characters (mage, cleric, bard, paladin, ranger, druid) use spellcraft to decipher the scroll (pointless in NWN) but must make a check against spell craft to use the scroll if it is higher level then they can cast inately (need to look the exact details up tonight) but it should be a DC about 5 or 10 less than the UMD one for rogues...so inprinciple not that hard to do.

guessing it has a DC of 15+caster level so a maximum of 31 or there abouts for a 9th level spell...but much lower for a moderate level spell and again this only should apply if you can not cast a spell of that level inately. And this makes sense...a 1st level mage would be rather ill prepared to open a gate for example.

kagouro2003 · Post by **kagouro2003** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:14 pm

Thanks a million for the replies. I am sure I understand a lot more about scrolls know, and will definitely use with my alt. character. After all he is supposed to be a half-sage, half smart-ass character so failing a scroll would be tremendously inconvenient

. He being a rogue, has very high Lore and UMD, failing at the other skills, him being a sage and all

.

Still this poor creature of a cleric has the brains of a pea and the Lore of a children's book (as my alt. character would probably point

). She does has the spellcraft skill as high as her limited intellect allows (5). So it was rather dissapointing when she failed a scroll of a spell she already knew and had also memorised.

As already mentioned by others, I doubt that was the will of the scripter, hence the post.

kag

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:29 pm

looking in the DM guide vrs 3.5 on casting from scrolls.

To cast from a scroll you must:

1. the spell must be the correct type for your character class.
2. the spell must be on your class list.
3. the user must have the required ability score (ex: int 15 for 5th level arcane wizard spell)

If you meet these requirments and your caster level is equal to the spell caster level of the scroll then sucess is automatic.

If not then you make a caster level check against a DC = scrolls caster level +1. This must be a d20+your caster level I think.

If you fail you need to make a DC5 wisdom check.