Avlis policy on: How invisibilty is 'perceived'

Vroshgrak · Post by **Vroshgrak** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:55 pm

Vrosh took the blind fighting feat (not really sure if it was a wise choice but anyway). I was curious as well about how i should treat invis people. Just the same, or do i get to acknowledge the people?

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:58 pm

Blindfighting means you have trained at attacking unseen opponents. You still can't see anyone. You are just better tuned to your other senses at pinning down where the target is.

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:07 pm

Vrosh took the blind fighting feat (not really sure if it was a wise choice but anyway). I was curious as well about how i should treat invis people. Just the same, or do i get to acknowledge the people?

Well Vrosh is always doing things that aren't too smart

Actually this came up once before with me. I was talking to someone and somebody else asked who I was talking to. I said that person beside you or something to that effect and that PC said you can't see me because I'm invisible. But I could see them. In my view if I physically see someone on the screen I can see them and therefore they are not invisible. However I get the impression from the rest of this thread that I am violating a rule. Am I? How am I to know if someone is invisible or just has another spell, like Rod of the Ghost on them?

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:32 pm

you were probably seeing them as a ghostly shadowy image, if they were still invisible. What that really means, is that you successfully passed a LISTEN check against them and know that someone is present. Bioware decided the easiest way to make this happen is for you to "see" a partially transparent image of the person. So you technically can't see them unless you used a Potion of Sight Unseen or something like that. From a RP perspective, you would not be able to know who the person is, because you really have only heard them (footsteps, stepping on a twig, armor clanking, etc.)

would have been simpler to just not show you the person and have some other sigh to indicate that sopmeone is present..

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:18 pm

What that really means, is that you successfully passed a LISTEN check against them and know that someone is present

My listen isnt very good so I doubt it. My spot is much better

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:38 pm

SPOT only works against someone's HIDE, not invisible.

LISTEN works against MOVE SILENTLY

Morbid Ridicule · Post by **Morbid Ridicule** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:14 am

If you're really desperate to know if someone is actually invisible or just "ghostly", you can examine them and look for "invisibility" If it's not there, they're not invisible.

Of course, then you get in trouble for using that examine function for reasons other than reading the character's description.

But oh well.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:18 am

Yeah - it can be confusing soetimes, as people that are invsilble (but detected) appear the same as those using ghostly visage (the blue aurora of the visage does not always display - at least not with my graphics card).

What about people using stealth - I never quite know what happens there - if I detect them are they fully visible to me - or do they again appear partially transparent? (My Listen is much much higher than my spot, so I generally always hear things before I see them - even though they are in plain sight).

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:19 am

I am fairly sure if the stealth skill is defeated you see the character with no ghosting. Though on several occasions I have seen nothing but heard the character walking.

Also detecting an invisible person is a very close range action...if you move and they vanish they are invisible.

Worse is when they have half a dozen spells up and it is just plain hard to figure out if the figure is ghosted or not.

Morbid Ridicule · Post by **Morbid Ridicule** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:33 am

Worse is when they have half a dozen spells up and it is just plain hard to figure out if the figure is ghosted or not.

Which is why we should just ban spellcasting altogether.

That would solve all our invisibility problems.

edit: and outlaw stealth mode too.

Reinstag · Post by **Reinstag** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:28 pm

Stealth mode can be defeated with three different skills: Spot, Search and Listen. While in detect mode, you make Search and Listen checks against a stealthed person's Hide and Move Silently skills.

If you beat the Hide check, they appear to you solid on screen.

If you only beat the Move Silently roll, you will only see a translucent version of them on your screen. Your character stil hasn't "seen" them, but you heard a noise. A stealthed character who has been heard can still fade from view if they succed at their MS vs your Listen.

Once a stealthed character is ~seen~ they cannot vanish from your sight (except with the Assassin PrC)

If you are not in detect mode then you use the Spot skill instead of Search.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:38 pm

Reinstag wrote:Stealth mode can be defeated with three different skills: Spot, Search and Listen. While in detect mode, you make Search and Listen checks against a stealthed person's Hide and Move Silently skills.

If you beat the Hide check, they appear to you solid on screen.

If you only beat the Move Silently roll, you will only see a translucent version of them on your screen. Your character stil hasn't "seen" them, but you heard a noise. A stealthed character who has been heard can still fade from view if they succed at their MS vs your Listen.

Once a stealthed character is ~seen~ they cannot vanish from your sight (except with the Assassin PrC)

Thanks for that info. It explains a lot for me - as I have a much higher listen than spot/search.

Reinstag wrote:If you are not in detect mode then you use the Spot skill instead of Search.

Really? Hmm, that's interesting. (I thought search was just used for traps and secret doors). A lot of people use "detect" mode just so that they walk rather than run, but really this might not give you the full benefit, for instance if your spot is a lot more than your search, you will lose out if your in detect mode.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic here. The main thing was to explain why someone's figure looks transparent and I think this is explained now.

Garand · Post by **Garand** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:39 pm

I've always felt that the whole thing would be solved if ...

When you HEAR someone but cannot see them AND they are in stealth mode OR invisible OR both:
-On perception this way you hear the "destealth sound" AND
-You ONLY see the circular shadow on the ground (no floaty name or floaty name: Hidden Individual)where they are standing AND you can target it for attacks.

When you HEAR AND SEE someone and they are ONLY invisible and you have true seeing or see invisibility on:
-You perceive them normally

When you HEAR AND SEE someone and they are in Stealth mode (regardless of invisibilty status):
-You see the semi-transparent version of the character

(this way you see them and can identify them ... but you can ALSO TELL THEY ARE TRYING TO HIDE ... that way, for instance, if they are tailing a bad guy and you are this person's friend you don't shout "HIYA GORM!" and blow his cover.)

I don't even know if this stuff is even possible to code ... but I kinda thought that if we were able to remove visual spell effects from those spells that shouldn't have it .. then something like this could be done.

Steve Lacy · Post by **Steve Lacy** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:06 am

Great Ideas Garand..The folks at Bioware just put the easiest thing they could in. Hopefully it could be changed.

I think it has also been noted that See Invs. and True Seeing give a bonus to your spot and listen checks, but dont automatically let you see a player in stealth. Please, if you are under the effects of these spells try to take careful notice status of the visability of the character in question. Dont assume that just because you have one of these spells "on" that you can see everything.

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:16 am

Nobody has found a way to code in removing the name or doing effects like that. The stealth code is not editable like the spell code is.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:28 am

The discussion about how NWN does the rule checks and so forth as been moved to here.

[ArcanE] · Post by **[ArcanE]** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:15 am

Sorry to bump this thread but basically it is like this now:

You are never completely invisible to another PC. If you go about completely undetected (you win all silent/hide/invisibility checks VS listen/spot/search checks) you still appear as a shaded person onscreen for all other PC's in the vicinity?

Well to be honest, if that's true it's stupid. Bioware should modify this soon within a next patch if it can't be accomplished trough NWN scripting.

*sighs*

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:42 am

[ArcanE] wrote:Sorry to bump this thread but basically it is like this now:

You are never completely invisible to another PC. If you go about completely undetected (you win all silent/hide/invisibility checks VS listen/spot/search checks) you still appear as a shaded person onscreen for all other PC's in the vicinity?

Well to be honest, if that's true it's stupid. Bioware should modify this soon within a next patch if it can't be accomplished trough NWN scripting.

*sighs*

incorrect.. if you win the hide/movesilent checks and you are invisible, the other player sees nothing at all.

the ghostly image only appears when you loose the hide or move silent check

Tunic · Post by **Tunic** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:06 pm

So hypothetically, if someone is using stealth skills, but not concealed by magic, and not actually hiding BEHIND anything or in shadows or darkness, and doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight, and you hear them and look in the direction of the sound, what's to stop you seeing them? The image would still be ghostly, but if they're walking down the middle of the street in broad daylight, I think common sense has to prevail.

[ArcanE] · Post by **[ArcanE]** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:41 pm

Jordicus wrote:
[ArcanE] wrote:Sorry to bump this thread but basically it is like this now:

You are never completely invisible to another PC. If you go about completely undetected (you win all silent/hide/invisibility checks VS listen/spot/search checks) you still appear as a shaded person onscreen for all other PC's in the vicinity?

Well to be honest, if that's true it's stupid. Bioware should modify this soon within a next patch if it can't be accomplished trough NWN scripting.

*sighs*
incorrect.. if you win the hide/movesilent checks and you are invisible, the other player sees nothing at all.

the ghostly image only appears when you loose the hide or move silent check

Does this apply to a rogue's "hide in shadows" ability too?

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:26 pm

[ArcanE] wrote:Does this apply to a rogue's "hide in shadows" ability too?

Yes, that is what they are talking about.

"Hide" = "Hide in Shadows"

I'm not sure the term "Hide in Shadows" is used much these days, people just refer to "Hide". When I played AD&D it was always known as "Hide in Shadows" though.

(Not to be confused with "Hide in Plain Sight" which is a Shadow Dancer skill, which could really be re-written to "Hide in Shadows in Plain Sight"

)

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:30 pm

Tunic wrote:So hypothetically, if someone is using stealth skills, but not concealed by magic, and not actually hiding BEHIND anything or in shadows or darkness, and doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight, and you hear them and look in the direction of the sound, what's to stop you seeing them? The image would still be ghostly, but if they're walking down the middle of the street in broad daylight, I think common sense has to prevail.

OK, you seem to be confused about how Hide in Plain Sight works.

HiPS is the ability to use stealth skills to hide while being observed. If you're already hidden, HiPS makes no difference - it does not affect your Hide or Move Silently skill checks. Thus a stealthy character could e.g. hide and then enter a room full of people. In NWN that "hidden" character could walk right between people without requiring cover, shadow, or even a flimsy mechanical explanation. The Stealth ability defies all logic.

Now, if this hidden character were to attack someone, or otherwise become visible to the people in that room, he could not again hide while being observed, UNLESS he had HiPS.

***

Does this apply to a rogue's "hide in shadows" ability too?

That's the ability we're talking about here, though it's not specific to rogues. Many classes have the Hide and Move Silently skills, which are used together and called "Stealth". Mechanically in NWN, you do both at the same time, so you can't e.g. Hide but NOT Move Silently.

***

Just use what the game engine gives you, folks. If you can see a person clearly, then your character can see them. If you see a ghostly outline, then your character can hear them. If you don't see anything, then you don't know they're there.

- Aloro

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:31 pm

Tunic wrote:So hypothetically, if someone is using stealth skills, but not concealed by magic, and not actually hiding BEHIND anything or in shadows or darkness, and doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight, and you hear them and look in the direction of the sound, what's to stop you seeing them? The image would still be ghostly, but if they're walking down the middle of the street in broad daylight, I think common sense has to prevail.

To settle this:

While NWN shows characters in stealth mode as merely walking merrily along, a character in stealth mode is actually darting from cover to cover. In a grassy field they are staying below the grasstop. In a field with some bushes they are darting from bush to bush.

When you fail the spot check but not the listen check you HEAR them but don't spot them. That is pretty common sense.

BlueCougar · Post by **BlueCougar** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:22 am

I know its been simplified for coding purposes but having had a friend in college that was blind. There are many other ways to identify a person without sight or hearing. Smell for instance or feeling their footsteps/vibration of their movements or even the air moving as they pass. I play a Gnoll Ranger. A creature such as that hunts by scent as much as sight and hearing. The race already gets Keen Senses as a feat. Maybe Bioware can incorporate a generic ghostly visage for any invisible characters that are heard without identifying them. I have followed the guidelines so far in this matter. I just think the best clarification regarding this would be from Bioware themselves. Is there an official response regarding this?

Liartes · Post by **Liartes** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:15 am

You 'do' see a ghostly image if you hear them.