Avlis policy on: Speaking - Changelings, Shifters, Telepathy

[TripleAught]

More questions/comments:

Wizards/Sorcerers can possess thier familiars. Therefore, couldn't an arcanist use thier familiar to "reach out" to someone else? This would be done, presumeably, by clawed messages unless the familiar had mouthparts that could in theory be used for speach.

As for "no speak language skill= cheesing" bit: that skill isn't the only way to have languages other than common. Some (most, actually) races get languages other than common automatically (elves, elven, orcs orcish, etc.) and at character creation, a character gets one bonus language per point of intelligence bonus, chosen from a list specific to their race and/or class. Humans can chose any nonsecret language as a bonus language. Clerics get the alignment-related Plannar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial) as possible choices, Wizards gain Draconic.
Ignoring these alternate non skill point based ways of learning languages would mean that, in essance, no PC can ever be allowed to know any language other than common, period. Afterall, for them to would be cheesing.

But...

I think you know where I'm going with this.

[TripleAught]

Oh, and another question: Say if two characters decide they want to develop a code or "secret language" for use between them, would doing so be cheesing?

That's fine assuming they both put the time into developing it. You can't show up one day suddenly fluent in a newly developed language. But, if you want to write up big vocab. lists to share with each other and start hashing out whether your sentence structure will be SVO or VSO or OVS and whether you'll have masculine/femine pronouns or a single generic one, or how questions will be formed either by intonation or additon of a word, and how to handle plurals then knock yourself out.

[chilingsworth]

More questions/comments:

Wizards/Sorcerers can possess thier familiars. Therefore, couldn't an arcanist use thier familiar to "reach out" to someone else? This would be done, presumeably, by clawed messages unless the familiar had mouthparts that could in theory be used for speach.

As for "no speak language skill= cheesing" bit: that skill isn't the only way to have languages other than common. Some (most, actually) races get languages other than common automatically (elves, elven, orcs orcish, etc.) and at character creation, a character gets one bonus language per point of intelligence bonus, chosen from a list specific to their race and/or class. Humans can chose any nonsecret language as a bonus language. Clerics get the alignment-related Plannar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial) as possible choices, Wizards gain Draconic.
Ignoring these alternate non skill point based ways of learning languages would mean that, in essance, no PC can ever be allowed to know any language other than common, period. Afterall, for them to would be cheesing.

But...

I think you know where I'm going with this.

If you mean that you're going to say "But.... No," then, by that, do you mean that it is considered cheesing for PC's to know any lanugages other than Common? Because, that's what refusing to acknowledge anything I just said would mean.

[TripleAught]

If you mean that you're going to say "But.... No," then, by that, do you mean that it is considered cheesing for PC's to know any lanugages other than Common? Because, that's what refusing to acknowledge anything I just said would mean.

Excuse me? Well, if that's the tone you like, here's the full explination

More questions/comments:

Wizards/Sorcerers can possess thier familiars. Therefore, couldn't an arcanist use thier familiar to "reach out" to someone else? This would be done, presumeably, by clawed messages unless the familiar had mouthparts that could in theory be used for speach.

This has been covered already in this thread. I don't see why you are bringing it up again.
A familiar will not change psyiologically just because a wizard possess it.
What does that mean? As has already been covered, No you cannot speak common through your familiar, unless it already has language capabilities, which has been covered elsewhere too so don't bring it up.
Yes, a possessed familiar would be able to reach out with gestures, attention-getting techniques because the wizard (with his vast INT score) is controlling the movements of the creature.
This however, does not mean that a familiar will be writing beautiful, flowing script on cave walls or sandy places. Their appendages will still limit their ability to form recognizable letters and should be taken into account.

As for "no speak language skill= cheesing" bit: that skill isn't the only way to have languages other than common. Some (most, actually) races get languages other than common automatically (elves, elven, orcs orcish, etc.) and at character creation, a character gets one bonus language per point of intelligence bonus, chosen from a list specific to their race and/or class. Humans can chose any nonsecret language as a bonus language. Clerics get the alignment-related Plannar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial) as possible choices, Wizards gain Draconic.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing that when I created any of my characters.
Remember, we try to do as much as we can to make Avlis like PnP, but some things are not possible. This is one of them.
Picking languages at first level that your character "knows" because you min/maxed your INT score to 18 is cheesing. <-- Notice the period

Ignoring these alternate non skill point based ways of learning languages would mean that, in essance, no PC can ever be allowed to know any language other than common, period. Afterall, for them to would be cheesing.

Stop being a rules laywer.

Re-read number 5

[dougnoel]

pseudodragon...
well...i didn't read the MM for a pseudodragon (as the book is now at home and i'm 400km away), but..intelligence 10 and dragons can speak...i think that therefore pseudodragons should be able to speak...

I suggest you read the MM entry, as well this thread: http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=40047. In that thread I explain that pseudodragons can only make a limited range of sounds.

i confess..i have a pseudodragon and, unaware of this rule, i played him as a speaking pseudodragon..did some smallplots with him...just today i was warned about this, so i investigated...i rly don't know what to do..some PCs already heard him speaking, but there is this rule...i don't knw if it's ok just to forget it as it might be a little off...ald also changing him to faerie dragn n lvl up is against my character...

You need to follow the rules. You should have your pseudodragon stop talking. If someone asks why, send them an OOC tell explaining the situation. remember, when you applied to join you agreed to read and follow the rules. Ignorance is not an excuse.

as the pseudodragon is named after my lost brother, i think there could be a magical way to allow my brother to talk thru him IC...

That would be cheesing, so no.

Wizards/Sorcerers can possess thier familiars. Therefore, couldn't an arcanist use thier familiar to "reach out" to someone else? This would be done, presumeably, by clawed messages unless the familiar had mouthparts that could in theory be used for speach.

That's a loaded question. Possessing your familiar is an OOC act. Therefore possessing your familiar does not suddenly give it language ability.

As for "no speak language skill= cheesing" bit: that skill isn't the only way to have languages other than common. Some (most, actually) races get languages other than common automatically (elves, elven, orcs orcish, etc.) and at character creation, a character gets one bonus language per point of intelligence bonus, chosen from a list specific to their race and/or class. Humans can chose any nonsecret language as a bonus language. Clerics get the alignment-related Plannar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial) as possible choices, Wizards gain Draconic.
Ignoring these alternate non skill point based ways of learning languages would mean that, in essance, no PC can ever be allowed to know any language other than common, period. Afterall, for them to would be cheesing.

Those rules require DM approval of additional racial languages. In the case of Avlis, instead of gaining bonus racial languages, your PC can speak any language you yourself learn - as they are all based on real world languages. Familiars are technically NPCs and do not fall under the same ruling. Instead, familiars fall under the rulings in this thread.

Doug

[Verandis]

Quick question.

I am presuming the list of 'speaking forms' is limited only because that's what the shapeshifting spells offer- if a changling assumes the form of, say, a Satyr, or a Hound Archon, or something else that seems to have speaking NPCs that aren't exceptions to their kind, it can speak, correct?

Should we just use common sense when taking forms, or is each one going to need specific approval?

[terror2001]

With the introduction of many new forms it is sometimes difficult to determine if a particular form has vocal chords that would allow a Changeling to speak i nthat form, such as various kinds of demons for example. Is there a list of forms and if they have vocal chords or not?

[spool32]

There is a list of things that do not.. this is not an exhaustive list. If you've got a question, please use Rule 0 or ask a DM... or even better, submit your thoughts on each form to us, and we'll approve/edit the list and make it public.

We really don't have the time to enumerate the vocal ability of each form, but you might. Help us out!

Thanks,

-spool32

[mhogar]

I assume that still spell allowes you to cast in a form that doesnt have limbs and silent spell allowes you to cast in a form that doesnt have vocal cords.

[spool32]

I assume that still spell allows you to cast in a form that doesn't have limbs and silent spell allows you to cast in a form that doesn't have vocal cords.

I'd say that's a generally reasonable assumption to make, with this slight clarification: silent would be needed for any form that isn't capable of "human" speech, i.e. you can't howl/meow/bark/oink the verbal component of a spell. To manage casting as a dog, you'd need the spell to be both silent and stilled.

Again, this is a general rule... as a player, if you can't think through these questions reasonably and you decline to ask us before just forging ahead, then you probably shouldn't be playing a changeling.

-spool32

[Zebranky]

This is only tangentially related to this thread, and definitely has an obvious rule 0 answer, but we might as well get a team answer...

Lycanthropes? Hybrid yes, animal no?