How the War started?

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:48 pm

The other main problem of the war is that M'chek has nowhere esle to go. And just seeing all the "unused" land just North of the Blandberg village must drive the M'chek's mad. It would be comparable to having the American Natives stopping the settlers at the Missippi river. The settlers can see all that land over there not being used at all.

I really like this analogy as a way to put M'Chek's position into RL perspective.

Post by **Nighthawk4** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:53 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
The other main problem of the war is that M'chek has nowhere esle to go. And just seeing all the "unused" land just North of the Blandberg village must drive the M'chek's mad. It would be comparable to having the American Natives stopping the settlers at the Missippi river. The settlers can see all that land over there not being used at all.
I really like this analogy as a way to put M'Chek's position into RL perspective.

Yes, but in this case, the Elves gave the Humans the contagious disease. I think History shows it was the other way around (and the disease was a little more personal than Spite).

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:27 pm

@ Vanor :

I get a little thrown off by threads here in 'World Information'.

Just because it's posted here, is it now 'general knowledge?'.

Can we read your post as saying that if we were to talk to older citizens of Mchek, they might relay a story similar to your recollection there?

Thanks

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:39 pm

Emprod wrote:Can we read your post as saying that if we were to talk to older citizens of Mchek, they might relay a story similar to your recollection there?

Yes you can.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:10 pm

j5hale3 wrote: I would like a better understanding also. Both Player wise and character wise. As a player I'd like to know better the "real" reasons for the war and the general condions around the war, As a character I'd like to know what most people assume the war is about.

Going to weigh in here with a quick note... I personally DON'T want more extensive OOC information handed out. Are you kidding? Look how people will use OOC info to try and achieve their goals, and all with the best of intentions.

Any information that I see handed out about the war I'm assuming is IC, because when you have groups of people that are dedicated to killing each other, they're going to use every resource they have.

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:00 pm

Scurvy_Platypus wrote: Going to weigh in here with a quick note... I personally DON'T want more extensive OOC information handed out.

Yep, I was writing a mini rant about this earlier and just didn't feel like sending it.

There are characters around that have troves of information that you'll never see on a forum or in OOC postings. This place is for background, the real meat and potatoes is in-game.

If people wanna believe the war is about dirt, they should be able to believe the war is about dirt without other things clouding their judgement.
If they wanna dig deeper in-game, then so be it.

Palentauri · Post by **Palentauri** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:27 pm

I find it rather funny to see both sides on this; The "He said She said" or more "That side did or this side did" is amusing, almost like the war is enough of a reason alone to continue the war.

How is started ~shrugs~ Truly after 50 years of war does it really matter. Is fault really needed? Both sides are acting like nations at war; both sides think they are fighting for the very survival of their race. They are going to do very nasty things to each other. Many many times over.

What the true question should be now is this.
Is there a possibility of one side winning, I mean truly winning, or is it going to continue the way it is, as a war or attrition, With no side making any real advancements on the other.

If one side can win, then it should push and win, ending the war.
If neither side can win. Or is willing to do what is needed to win.
Then another solution should be looked for.

War for wars sake "Why do we fight?" " Because that is what we have always done" Shows very little thinking.

But just my ideas on it.

Palentauri

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:20 pm

Emprod wrote:
Scurvy_Platypus wrote: Going to weigh in here with a quick note... I personally DON'T want more extensive OOC information handed out.
Yep, I was writing a mini rant about this earlier and just didn't feel like sending it.

There are characters around that have troves of information that you'll never see on a forum or in OOC postings. This place is for background, the real meat and potatoes is in-game.

If people wanna believe the war is about dirt, they should be able to believe the war is about dirt without other things clouding their judgement.
If they wanna dig deeper in-game, then so be it.

See Emprod, we agree again without really knowing it. All I'm asking for is the "background" to the war.

All the players should be on the same page with regards to the "background information" That's why I spend so much time reading these boards. I can only actively play the game for a few hours a week. but I can check these boards daily if not hourly when I work the Night Shift. I'm just trying to "fit" in better with the world. I like as much background as possible

Best regards,

Falkin · Post by **Falkin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:11 pm

j5hale3 wrote: you know what, these types of responses are starting to get on my nerves. I don't mean to pick on you Falkin because it's not just you, But REAL LIFE is all I have to go on to make these comparisions. AND I think that I cast the thought in a neutral way. I didn't say that the natives were right or the settlers were right. It is an useful way of thinking how the M'cheks might feel when they look at all the unused or (under used) land North of a natural border that's taken as a National border. In an earlier era, who knows what the boundries were.

This earth is the only place that has a human history that we know of so far. So we should look to our history (real or propaganda version) and extrapolate it into Avlis. UNTIL the time a Senior DM makes a ruling.

I can understand that, but it's quite a different perspective when you can be considered part of the source of said propaganda, ie in my case US Navy... Also mind you, my previous post on this thread was spur-of-the-moment when I was reading it, because that's what I was feeling at the moment...

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:12 pm

Dont Hijack my thread dammit!!

Glok

Falkin · Post by **Falkin** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:13 pm

Glocknal wrote:Dont Hijack my thread dammit!!

Glok

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:10 pm

Issue one 'Who': Seems here, just as when I read the other notes that the TNanshi did in fact shead blood first. Can we take that as fact? A lot of players seem to think that M'chek started the war with soilders invadeing. What the notes indicate is that m'chek settled TNanshi land with farmers and TNanshi forces slaughtered the civilians farming in TNanshi land. M'Chek fielded soilders in this war second.

Issue two 'Why': Another thing I would like to see put up as a fact is that, M'Chek is overpopulated. Everyone I talk to seems to think it is some misuse of land on the m'chek farmers part that caused the land to be barren. The notes state the issue is entirely, completely Overpopulation. Too many poeple, not enough food. Recently I even saw an incharacter post about how with enough coin mikona could 'fix the land'. Players realy think that the problem is bad farming and not overpopulation.

These two things seem to be very fuzzy in the eyes of players, not only IC, but OOC. The propaganda can be what it is, but the original issues of the background of the war need to be common knowledge by all players who care enough to read the story. Perhaps I am also misinterpreting things.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:26 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:Issue one 'Who':

Both sides have different versions of the same event, naturaly. According to M'Chek the farmers settled the land and the elfs slautered them. According to T'Nanshi, M'Chek invaded T'Nanshi and laid claime to the land, the T'Nanshi army simply removed the invaders.

Issue two 'Why':

According to M'Chek, it is simply there are to many people to feed, so they have to take drastic measures to feed them all, or else people die of hunger.

According to T'Nanshi, M'Chek ruined it's lands and would ruin any land it was given. T'Nanshi also believes that the over population is at fault, but that the humans of M'Chek simply need to learn to control themselves. If they don't have enough food to feed everyone, then they should stop having so many babies.

The propaganda can be what it is, but the original issues of the background of the war need to be common knowledge by all players who care enough to read the story.

No, no one needs to know the "real" reason behind it. Your characters wouldn't, and there's no real reason for the players to know it either. If you don't know the "real" reason, but only the reason your character has heard, then your reaction is more honest and IC.

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:31 pm

Well one player's IC ideas attempt to address both problems. I think the barren stuff comes from the look of the land south of the war zone.

I doubt though that M'Chek would have a overpopulation problem given the scale of the slaughter in the warzone. More like there would only be women, a few children and the mained left after 50 years of that kind of war. This would be true for both sides of course. When the extended campaigns in Europe occurred (ie 100 years War) there wasnt 100 years of massive battles and huge slaughters, there was just no declared peace for an extended time. I'm sure there are more historians that will correct this for accuracy, but that's how I remember the history lessons (though it was more that 20 years ago...how much more I'm not saying

)

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:24 pm

Well, the way I look at it. There ARE that many humans in M'Chek. For the 500 that die everyday, there are 500+ babys. That is not even mentioning that orcs, goblins, half-ogres, and kobolds live in M'chek too. If there is any list of races that no amount of war could stop their reporduction, that right there is it. At one baby per year per couple, that is under 200 thousand families. I am sure there are more then 200k families including the strong orc/goblin population.

The elfs, on the other hand, have got to be hurting loseing 500 troops a day.

Vanor, thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. The background story evenyone should know, perhaps I just did not express myself well.

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:27 pm

Well, the way I look at it. There ARE that many humans in M'Chek. For the 500 that die everyday, there are 500+ babys. That is not even mentioning that orcs, goblins, half-ogres, and kobolds live in M'chek too. If there is any list of races that no amount of war could stop their reporduction, that right there is it. At one baby per year per couple, that is under 200 thousand families. I am sure there are more then 200k families including the strong orc/goblin population.

The elfs, on the other hand, have got to be hurting loseing 500 troops a day.

Well mainly young men die. Therefore there are 500/day fewer men to have kids therefore you would deplete your breeding stock. Same in TNanshi. Based on observation humans are the dominate species so the others couldnt make up the losses. Overpopulation is too many people for the available land. MChek is relatively small and so it would seem unlikely that it could handle the loss of 200K a year. Remember there are no methods of transporting that much food around. And those are just the losses of the troops. Add starvation and the attacks of various other monsters and it's even more

I would be surprised if the standing army was 200K in the first place.

Then again I've died several times and always seem to come back, so maybe the whole thing is like Groundhog Day

In that case the war can go indefinitely cause no one really dies.

PigLickJF · Post by **PigLickJF** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:31 am

Don't put to much thought into numbers and such, though. It would obviously be virtually impossible to have a realistic population modeled in the game, so what there is is just a "representation" of what is taking place. Unless it has been officially stated somewhere that there are 500 casualties a day, that number has no value whatsoever in the discussion, regardless of whether someone has actually counted up the losses in-game. I think the main point is, there is a large, nasty war going on, and lots of people are dying. The actual numbers are irrelevant.

PigLick

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:20 pm

I guess my point was that middle age type societies could not have the kind of all out warfare that Avlis appears to have (ie everytime I'm in the warzone there is a fight or evidence there of).

The populations could not support it. If there was ever an IC reason to for the war to end that would likely be a good one. However I don't think that the war is meant to end

TheBluDragon · Post by **TheBluDragon** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:36 am

Vanor wrote:
WrathOG777 wrote:Issue one 'Who':
Both sides have different versions of the same event, naturaly. According to M'Chek the farmers settled the land and the elfs slautered them. According to T'Nanshi, M'Chek invaded T'Nanshi and laid claime to the land, the T'Nanshi army simply removed the invaders.

Issue two 'Why':
According to M'Chek, it is simply there are to many people to feed, so they have to take drastic measures to feed them all, or else people die of hunger.

According to T'Nanshi, M'Chek ruined it's lands and would ruin any land it was given. T'Nanshi also believes that the over population is at fault, but that the humans of M'Chek simply need to learn to control themselves. If they don't have enough food to feed everyone, then they should stop having so many babies.

The propaganda can be what it is, but the original issues of the background of the war need to be common knowledge by all players who care enough to read the story.
No, no one needs to know the "real" reason behind it. Your characters wouldn't, and there's no real reason for the players to know it either. If you don't know the "real" reason, but only the reason your character has heard, then your reaction is more honest and IC.

This sounds like a very good explanation on the surface Vanor. I only have one problem with it (constructive criticism), which is that this seems a rather petty reason for a war that has lasted over 50 years.
Look at our own history, most wars only last a couple of years at most, then come to an end. All the long wars I can think of off hand were all based on religious conflicts.

Sindol · Post by **Sindol** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:51 am

All wars you will think of had no elves with elvish lifespans involved...

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:45 pm

You know I asked this question six months ago and got a coherent response by Orl about it...and I believe it can still be found easily....
Under Avlis World Development: "How did M'Check get into this situation"

or using this:...

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