Classes and feats and spells, oh my!

[Cushman]

[The following is the ramblings of someone that has just found out what current PnP D&D is really like. And was overwhelmed. And rather likes the feeling.]

Well I had the happy fortune to run into some PnP players and sit in on two sessions of their game this last couple of weeks and get a taste of what REAL D&D 3.5 is like. When dealing with things covered by NWN (spells, feats, combat bonuses & penalties, etc.) things were pretty comfy. Dealing with the DM face to face was fun and interesting.

The RP part of things was a bit messy because of filling in for characters for players that couldn't make it and not knowing how they played them and having to do things manually rather than having it managed by a game engine. Plus I think my presence there was disruptive since everyone liked to describe prior characters, adventures, faux pas, etc. It was really fun both nights but was not very immersive all in all. They've invited me to play while I'm in town so maybe in the long run that kind of stuff will settle down.

That was about 20-25% of the night.

The other 75-80%.

WOW!

I mean,

WWWWWOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!

Even for the basic things in the game, there are SO many tiny details related to movement and types of actions (free, movement, full, and ... I don't know even yet), other skills, the requirement to actually have the right spell components, and on and on and on and on.

What was really overwhelming was that I had no idea there was such extensive OTHER stuff that didn't fit into the DM being creative and the RP side of things. The realization that there were a dozen, two dozen? more? books that have material to be drawn from was dumbfounding. And the characters!!!! So many classes! So many combinations! Five class characters? HUH?! Just bewildering to this point. Plus I had no idea that things like Wild Mage, Fate spinner, and other such mage specialties on Avlis had their source in PnP so directly. I thought they were all created by Avlis DMs/builders/etc.



Seemingly hundreds of feats.

• Want to cast the same spell twice, at the same time? Pick a feat (Twin spell: complete arcane).
• Want to pick up monk levels after taking another class? Pick a feat (ascetic mage and the like: complete adventurer)
• Does your cleric have domain envy? No problem, take another one with a feat. (arcane disciple: complete divine)
• You're a bartender and don't have the right ale when a group of adventurers come into you place? No worries, pick a feat. (spontaneous brew: complete food services)

Just unbelievable. I got the feeling from reading through some of the many books that if you can't find the feat you need you just haven't looked in enough books.



An endless list of spells. Many for just a particular class. Spread throughout the dozen(s of) books.



So I've been invited to create a character, two actually, as there are two DMs that alternate plot arcs so that one is working on his next part while the other is running a different set of characters through his.

Once I come up with two character concepts, I'm faced with how in bloody hell I'm going to actually figure out how to build him or her. Given the amazingly diverse set of books giving so many classes and feat and spells the whole thing is just daunting. The easiest route would be to build a straight ranger, or rogue, or sorcerer or whatever and figure a way through the maze of feats and spells and whatnot that way. There'd be SO much to learn going that route since there are so many differences between the PnP ones and what you can do in NWN. BUT the crazy assortment of classes that I'd never heard of before a couple weeks ago is just SO compelling. I'm not sure where to start.

It's all rather shocking. And exciting.

[NayalaGelbert]

Welcome to the addiction!

If I may recommend, the Rules Compendium is an excellent way to peruse the majority of mechanics that will effect character actions. It's concise and provides a fairly convenient way to look things up. This, of course, after you finish with the PHB.

I would also recommend Savage Species as a good way to conceptualise monstrous characters, something that I think 3.x has done particularly well. My first character in a 3.x PnP campaign (I hadn't played regularly since 1st Edition) was a troll thief and Kgrrth'thol (Little Butterfly) was hellafun to play!

Nayala was also a PnP character that I wanted to test out, and I wanted to try a persistent NWN environment. And, of course, I'm still playing her.

[Brayon]

Your free time is now gone forever!!!!! Just don't foget to loggin and play on Avlis.


The beauty, and doiwnfall, of most DnD PnP games is the tremendous amount of books. I think 3.5 has the most books published of any of the editions.... I could be wrong... As a DM in our PnP game, myself and our other DM, had too specify which books we would allow to be used. Once we had the core books, then anything new was first discussed by the group. Otherwise, the content would eventually lead to a arguement of this feat cancels that feat, therefore you cant use that, etc...

Some good advice for a first time player, stick to the core and wizards published books. That would be the simplest route to make a PC, as the rules should mesh with each other.

[Sable the White]

The details in PnP can be almost overwhelming. You really have to picture in your head where you are at any given time. It does get hard sometimes with a lot of tings go to reference, especially in the middle of combat. Worse is when the party splits up...I always used seperate rooms for seperate sub-parties.

Still cracks me up to have party members stealing each others gear....then in the middle of a stick situation Omar the Wizard reaches for his......ehhh......where did it go?! (Elsewhere in the dungeon...Duff the theif wonders what this wand Omar had does...)

[Buddha]

The bullshitting and talking about past faux pas happens at every session, regardless of whether there's a new guy or not. That's part of the fun.

The books... don't get me started. I'm a firm believer that the multitude of books is purely WotC way of trying to milk as much money out of the fan base as possible. You don't NEED that many books to play. 2ed had three essentials -- players handbook, DM guide and monstrous compendium. Shoot, when I started, there was just one book, and it was carved into wooden tablets...

*shakes his Staff of the Magi and mutters curses*

[Cushman]

I actually need to ask the DMs what the constraints on the books are. For my sake I'm hoping they're pretty significant. There was a lot of banter about wild and crazy characters and feats and spells all over the board from prior campaigns and just throwing things out as they occurred to folks so I'm not even sure what my bounds are. Starting from the "core" is a great idea and I'll probably do that just for my sanity. There are two existing parties too, and I want a character that fits well with the ensemble so I do have some constraints there as well. That reduces me from infinity options to about infinity/10 or so.

One character's going to start at level 2 and another at level 5, I think. There's no expectation about the characters going epic so that makes things a little easier and a little harder (I want the characters to be useful right out of the gate and not have any gaps through to 15-17 or so).

In one campaign (starting level 5) the suggested needs are Tracker/Survival oriented (ranger, scout, druid, others?) or a generalist caster (wizard, sorcerer, beguiler?, others?). Anyone have 5-15th level versatile character ideas that are only one to three classes that fit in here? I don't want anything too complicated; how do you even play a character with training in 6-7-8 classes? I'm really drawn to Enlightened Fist though because I just LOVE monks and casters. Anyone have any experience with how effective a caster an Enlightened Fist is? It seems to develop Wizard (say) levels at almost full progression (except for bonus feats) so it wouldn't lag too far behind in casting as a pure wizard, would it?

In the other campaign they're not so far along so this is the 2nd level character start. They're missing a front-liner, which should make for an easier concept and build, or a cleric. I need to figure this one out by the time I get back to Michigan since this will be the campaign we'll be running at that point. Any good fun clericky character classes that spring to people's mind?

Fortunately I have access to a bunch of source books that let me get started with reading and thinking now and lets me figure out which books I really want to go out and buy. Unless someone out there is planning on ditching 3.5 and going for 4.0 that wants to donate their library? Huh? Huh? Huh?

[gwydion2]

The books... don't get me started. I'm a firm believer that the multitude of books is purely WotC way of trying to milk as much money out of the fan base as possible. You don't NEED that many books to play. 2ed had three essentials -- players handbook, DM guide and monstrous compendium.

+1

Use a couple of core books and maybe 1 or 2 companions that the DM thinks are appropriate to his campaign (I use Stormwrack). The rest is just opening the floodgates for players to pull stupid power builds, overpowered classes and feats and pointless rules discussions.

[Pathos Street]

Play a divination- or enchantment-focused wizard.

Generally, if you're playing a caster, you're going to be much more of a glass cannon than in NWN. Buffs are situational, not the every-dungeon every-time stuff that happens in NWN, partly because it's better to have spells in reserve since you never know what's coming next, and partly because the array of spells is MUCH larger than in NWN. You don't want to use that bull's strength on yourself right before going into the dungeon, because A) you might be down there for 4 days without rest and B) the fighter might need that extra boost to bend the prison bars and break you all out. Whatever class you choose, look at focusing on that class' strengths. You don't need to ever "solo" in PnP, and even if you do, a decent DM will always allow you a way out.

If you want to play a really fun and powerful caster though, there are various prestige classes in the 3.5 DMG and other 3.x splashbooks that will allow you to combine the powers of multiple classes, so that, say, at 16th level, you will cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric (or any other combination of spellcasting classes... bard/druid wiz/sorc, etc).

[S?retur]

"Bah, Feats, books" etc. +1

I actually need to ask the DMs what the constraints on the books are.

- You're an angel, the DM will love you!
It quickly becomes painful and unfun to manage redundant, stupid and overpowered things

PHB 1 and2, EPH, most of the Eberron stuff and a short list of other "allowed" feats, spells and classes here. Though if someone really wants to do something new, I usually include it if everyone thinks it fits and sounds fun. If something makes a class better than the core (e.g. better divine caster than cleric), it's usually overpowered, unless there's some signifficant sacrifice. As for fluff, I like it, but the only canon is that which the DM decides upon. Those problems gone, the only thing hindering you is your own imagination - no graphic engine weirdness, no stupid AI, no indestructible fixed objects (unless it's meant to be) Tip: make a copy of the parts you use, cut it out to small cards to show the others (and yourself!) when you use them.

As for giving away the 3.5 books, nope, sorry. Even if we convert to 4.0 eventually, there's material for several years yet

[maxinion]

Some advice: stick to the core books if at all possible. In my games, we'd always limit ourselves to the PHB's, the DMG, and any setting books we were in: that's all. As soon as you add any more classes and feats and spells it really breaks the flow of the game, as you have to look up every detail every 20 minutes, and it just gets obscene. With those few books though, you can memorize the important stuff, which makes the game flow sooooo much better (and really, the constant stalling and lack of action is what annoys me most about pnp).

That being said, if you don't feel like buying all the books: the d20 srd is your friend. All the rules, all in hypertext, so they're relatively easy to find. At least this will help you rolling up your own characters. (and sorry if someone already posted this, only skimmed the text).

[KinX]

I actually need to ask the DMs what the constraints on the books are. For my sake I'm hoping they're pretty significant. There was a lot of banter about wild and crazy characters and feats and spells all over the board from prior campaigns and just throwing things out as they occurred to folks so I'm not even sure what my bounds are. Starting from the "core" is a great idea and I'll probably do that just for my sanity. There are two existing parties too, and I want a character that fits well with the ensemble so I do have some constraints there as well. That reduces me from infinity options to about infinity/10 or so.


One character's going to start at level 2 and another at level 5, I think. There's no expectation about the characters going epic so that makes things a little easier and a little harder (I want the characters to be useful right out of the gate and not have any gaps through to 15-17 or so).

In one campaign (starting level 5) the suggested needs are Tracker/Survival oriented (ranger, scout, druid, others?) or a generalist caster (wizard, sorcerer, beguiler?, others?). Anyone have 5-15th level versatile character ideas that are only one to three classes that fit in here? I don't want anything too complicated; how do you even play a character with training in 6-7-8 classes? I'm really drawn to Enlightened Fist though because I just LOVE monks and casters. Anyone have any experience with how effective a caster an Enlightened Fist is? It seems to develop Wizard (say) levels at almost full progression (except for bonus feats) so it wouldn't lag too far behind in casting as a pure wizard, would it?

stuff that! The most fun I've had was when I got annoyed at my group because they were all telling me they needed a rogue so I should make a rogue. So I gave them all the finger and made a paladin. But then again, I was already established in the group and not a newbie trying to make a good impression.

[Cushman]

stuff that! The most fun I've had was when I got annoyed at my group because they were all telling me they needed a rogue so I should make a rogue. So I gave them all the finger and made a paladin. But then again, I was already established in the group and not a newbie trying to make a good impression.

Hehe. I'm not too worried about all that. it's all about fun and pretty much anything I pick will be fun and I'll learn a lot. The group's already big enough that I think we'll be fine with whatever I pick. Maybe I'll play an 8 Int Wizard.

From what I can see, you can flavor anything with anything else, in a BUNCH of shades of gray in between, so I can pick a "gap" and tweak it in directions I'd like to go. I'm guessing the two DMs will take into account the character mix and there'll be a solution somehow with whoever's there each particular night (it varies week to week of course).

In short, it's all good.

[Knightlight]

The bullshitting and talking about past faux pas happens at every session, regardless of whether there's a new guy or not. That's part of the fun.
[/i]

i was going to say this but well you beat me to it.. it doesn't matter if you were there they would have told each other for the 100th time about how they killed that super uber death gargoyle in the secret door by shoving it into the sphere of destruction with only a leviation spell and some rope.. or that time the dm was cruel and gave them awesome items only to figure out he messed up and had to creatively steal them back ... that is usually 50% of the time.. so you got lucky



you probably noticed in PNP OOC chat would have everyone banned 500 times every hour..



and.... HOUSE RULES RULE... who needs books .. i am the dm .. and i say you can cast light on the eyes of that orc blinding him if i want to... oh by the way doing that just gave you 5 evil points because he was just wanting to ask directions...

the only books i think you need are a player handbook, monster manual, and DMG (dungeon masters guide) and yes its cheating to read the monster manual just to memorize the monster stats... ***see dm counter HOUSE RULES***


***says that when he has about 100 books from 1st edition through 3rd***


welcome to the club ...

KL

[gO)Solo]

Best advice I can offer for a PnP session:

Always have fun and always think outside the box. Spells, feats, combat are NOT as cut-and-dry in the PnP as they are in NWN. Especially as a mage, think of how that one little spell could make SUCH a difference if used a little...differently.


Silly example (but one from experience): Party of four (fighter, cleric, wizard and ranger (me being the wizard)) are in a cave and have stumbled upon a den of trolls. (We're level 5) Figther (wis 6) decides this would be a GREAT challenge of his martial skills and decides to charge....wizard thinks better of this idea and casts "Hold Person" on the fighter...(probably not the best thing to do in hindsight)...unfortunately the full-round casting time made it so that his full-charge landed him right in the middle of the trolls and then paralyzed....fighter dies most gruesomely.

At this point, it is too late to run...so wizard (hoping to redeem himself) thinks quickly and uses "Melf's Acid Arrow" on the a stalactite, causing it to come crashing down on top of one of the trolls (pinning him to the floor...since he can only be killed with fire or acid). The other one decides that wizard looks tasty but is thankfully brought down by the ranger/cleric combo...wizard uses fireball to incinerate the two trolls.

Example two (also from experience): Party is in a dungeon and needs to get into a small crevice...party consists of a gnome, a halfling, an elf and a minotaur....minotaur OBVIOUSLY won't fit. Party decides to give minotaur a Ring of Adaptation (allows you to survive in otherwise lethal conditions) and stuff him in a Bag of Holding. Problem solved.

Always fun to be creative (assuming the DM allows it.)