Avlis policy on: Speaking - Changelings, Shifters, Telepathy

[dougnoel]

I've assumed that the telepathy between a mage and his/her familiar is limited to empathy: the conveyance of feelings and emotions rather than actual conversation. Not sure whether that was the right approach, but it allowed for some nice rp possibilities.

This is the way to go for all familiars except the pseudodragon. The only familiar that has actual telepathy is the pseudodragon. Talking familiars can convey things they have seen, heard or otherwise experienced, but can only do so by describing it and imparting any feelings they had. A mage can't see through a familiar's eyes.

The way telepathy makes sense for me: for example, I possess my familiar and send him scouting somewhere; he then comes back to me; I unpossess him; I walk into the area. At this point, I might know where there are safe places to hide, take cover, flee and so on, because I sent my familiar there and he telepathically let me know what he saw (didn't speak to me about it, because my familiar is a beholder kin - I did play him as speaking before, but not since I found out that they can't).

Telepathy is a replacement for speech, so a pseudodragon can describe a room. Familiars without the ability to communicate (they have neither speech nor telepathy) can convey things like something scary is in that room (fear), something yummy is in that room (hunger), that room is nice (happiness), or that room is strange (curiousity).

So does this mean my changeling in raven form -can- speak but will be easily identified as an abnormal raven?

Yes, a changeling in raven form can speak - with a few caveats. First, it is your responsibility to identify that you are a raven in some way. This is due to engine limitations. Stirges use the same model as ravens. Stirges cannot speak. It's your responsibility to let other players know through emotes or another way that the form you are in is a raven.

You would be easily identified as abnormal by anyone who heard you say more than one or two phrases, or if you reacted intelligently to speech (as mimicry does not constitute understanding.) If you do not seem to have a master, it is also possible that someone would find that suspicious. Also, keep in mind that if someone has not run into a talking bird before, they are under no obligation to assume that all ravens talk.

Regardless of a players suspicions about you being an abnormal bird however, they can only know you are a changeling if they see you change and make a successful spellcraft check or are told ICly by someone who knows you are a changeling. For more information on being identified as a changeling, read the thread on Detecting Changelings.

Hrm, what about trolls? You have a quest in the wilderness with speaking trolls.

Trolls can speak. I was unaware that this was a form you could shift into. I can add it to the list if that's the case.

Also with golems I am sure some can not speak, but if the creator of the golem gave them the capacity to speak, wouldn't it be possible? I seem to recall in some campaign or somewhere speaking golems.

Regardless of how one becomes a golem, (shifter, spell or changeling), the golem has no voicebox, vocal chords or tongue with which to speak. If you did encounter a speaking golem, it is most likely magically enabled to do so. So if a changeling were to copy a speaking golem, they would not be able to copy the magical ability to speak.

So yes, it is possible for NPC golems to speak. It is not possible for PCs taking the form of a golem to speak.

Do changlings that say change from elf to human sound the same? or do thier vocal cords change and therefore could not be identified by the voice?

The vocal chords would change. The only ways to identify a changeling are to succeed at the spellcraft check or be told ICly by someone. For more information on being identified as a changeling, read the thread on Detecting Changelings.

[Zyndro]

the golem has no voicebox, vocal chords or tongue with which to speak.

What about demonflesh golems? They're pieced together from organic matter. They clearly have mouths (with tongues). No shifter at this point can turn into one (that I know of), and as far as I know, none will be able to for another half a year at least. However, it will come up eventualy. The other two golem shapes, iron and stone, abviously lack voiceboxes and vocal chords. It's only the fleshy one that I'm fuzzy on. I would imagine that if it could 'talk' its 'speach' would consist of incoherent sounds and roars. It's not like something that's patchworked together like that is going to be able speak clearly enough for it to be understood as language. Is this right, or way off the mark?

[dougnoel]

the golem has no voicebox, vocal chords or tongue with which to speak.

What about demonflesh golems? They're pieced together from organic matter. They clearly have mouths (with tongues). No shifter at this point can turn into one (that I know of), and as far as I know, none will be able to for another half a year at least. However, it will come up eventualy. The other two golem shapes, iron and stone, abviously lack voiceboxes and vocal chords. It's only the fleshy one that I'm fuzzy on. I would imagine that if it could 'talk' its 'speach' would consist of incoherent sounds and roars. It's not like something that's patchworked together like that is going to be able speak clearly enough for it to be understood as language. Is this right, or way off the mark?

I can't find the demonflesh golem in the Monster Manual, MM II, Monsters of Faerun, Epic Level Handbook, Manual of the Planes or Book of Vile Darkness. Maybe it's in MM III. The Monster Manual has this to say about flesh golems:

A flesh golem cannot speak, although it can emit a hoarse roar of sorts.

So I suppose it's possible that a demonflesh golem could do the same. But it wouldn't have all the working parts needed to speak. It wouldn't even be able to make multiple noises.

[Krator]

In Hordes of the Underdark there is a speaking demonflesh golem.

[dougnoel]

In Hordes of the Underdark there is a speaking demonflesh golem.

There are lots of speaking golems in Hordes. Those golems were imbued with intelligence by their creator. Normally, golems have no Intelligence score, so that particular demonflesh golem was not a normal specimen.

[Fredegar]

Ahh, when you had shapeshifted forms I was thinking of the spell shapechange as well as shifter/changeling shifting.

Troll is part of the level 4 shapechange spell I think.

[Adhin]

So what about ticks or beepings while in a golem form? not so much to attempte at a conversation but like, make a loud tick befor you run into battle or beep or something if some one asks you to follow them or whatever. Id also like to point out in the monster manual it says a Spectre regains all of its language skills in the afterlife. Basicly it can speak whatever it was able to speak befor it died, may wanna toss that on the list.

-edit-
I just checked D&D webpage for there pictures (it has all the art listed out by book). The Demon Flesh golem is in the 'Fiend Folio'. So if anyone has 3E of that plz look it up and toss up what it says about there abilities of speech.

-edit, agan-
Id like to also point out shifters are a special case (the class) in that when they turn into something they littlery become that thing. So the Spectre one would retrain his 'magical' ability to speak just like Risen Lord (no cords in either of em). This is partly why I think if the iron golem form should be left up to the shifter them selves to deside as they're the ones who might give them selves the ability. Though I don't really see how it matters to much, can't talk in tiger form and i still manage to get people to follow me

[dougnoel]

Ahh, when you had shapeshifted forms I was thinking of the spell shapechange as well as shifter/changeling shifting.

Troll is part of the level 4 shapechange spell I think.

Yes, I was including that spell, so thanks. Are there any other forms that I missed?

So what about ticks or beepings while in a golem form? not so much to attempte at a conversation but like, make a loud tick befor you run into battle or beep or something if some one asks you to follow them or whatever.

Golems have no need to make noise, whether it's ticks, beeps, clicks, whirs or anything else. You could rub your hands together to create a grating noise if you wanted. But golems aren't robots, there are no gears to grate or sound synthesizers to beep.

Id also like to point out in the monster manual it says a Spectre regains all of its language skills in the afterlife. Basicly it can speak whatever it was able to speak befor it died, may wanna toss that on the list.

Done.

Id like to also point out shifters are a special case (the class) in that when they turn into something they littlery become that thing. So the Spectre one would retrain his 'magical' ability to speak just like Risen Lord (no cords in either of em). This is partly why I think if the iron golem form should be left up to the shifter them selves to deside as they're the ones who might give them selves the ability. Though I don't really see how it matters to much, can't talk in tiger form and i still manage to get people to follow me

Shifters on Avlis (whether they are native to Avlis or not) get their shifting ability from the gods. So the abilities are defined by the gods. Golems can't talk.

[Malathyre]

Troll is part of the level 4 shapechange spell I think.

Yes, I was including that spell, so thanks. Are there any other forms that I missed?[/quote]

There have been so many questions here, I hate to ask more, but since they aren't mentioned, I'd assume all those elemental forms that druids can take are incapable of speech, right?

From spells, Polymorph self lets one change into an umberhulk, which I assume cannot talk but might be able to chitter or something. Shapechange lets one take the form of a Balor and Fire Giant, both of which I would assume can talk, but I figured it's better to ask, and maybe get them added to the list.

[Godron]

Would the following scenario be alright for pseudodragon then ?

I instruct my familiar to seek out someone and make the person follow.
I possess the familiar, fly around town until I find the person.
When found (IC) then have the familiar use telepathy to 'ask' the person to follow.

So that it really becomes a replacement for speech or does the telepathy only work between mage and familiar ?

[dougnoel]

since they aren't mentioned, I'd assume all those elemental forms that druids can take are incapable of speech, right?

Correct. Elementals can speak their planar language, but are incapable of speaking common naturally. Thus you can make noise, but cannot speak. Earth elementals can make rock grating sounds, fire elementals can make crackling fire sounds, air elementals can make whistling wind sounds, and water elementals can make crashing wave sounds.

From spells, Polymorph self lets one change into an umberhulk, which I assume cannot talk but might be able to chitter or something.

Umber hulks can speak Terran, but not common. So you cannot speak, but you could chitter, click and clack with your mandibles.

Shapechange lets one take the form of a Balor and Fire Giant, both of which I would assume can talk, but I figured it's better to ask, and maybe get them added to the list.

Added.

Would the following scenario be alright for pseudodragon then ?

I instruct my familiar to seek out someone and make the person follow.
I possess the familiar, fly around town until I find the person.
When found (IC) then have the familiar use telepathy to 'ask' the person to follow.

So that it really becomes a replacement for speech or does the telepathy only work between mage and familiar ?

You could not do that. Telepathy only works between master and familiar, sorry.

[Titanium Dragon]

What about ravens? Even in RL, Ravens like Parrots can mimic voices.

According to the PhB 3.0 ravens speak one language.

This is something the Team discussed a while back.

Mimicing is not talking. In NWN, raven familiars have an Int of 3. That isn't enough to carry on a conversation. And while it is possible to train a raven to mimic speech, that would require the Handle Animal skill. Since that skill isn't available, training a raven to mimic speech would fall under cheesing.

So, ravens can't talk. Sorry.

Not to step on any toes or anything, but technically in D&D 3 intelligence is "humanlike"; animals have intelligences of 1 or 2, but humanlike intelligence is defined as 3 or more - hence the rule of why half-orcs cannot have intelligence scores below 3, as then they'd be animals (and not suitable PCs). But *shrugs* what the team says is law, and so it shall be I suppose.

[dougnoel]

Not to step on any toes or anything, but technically in D&D 3 intelligence is "humanlike"; animals have intelligences of 1 or 2, but humanlike intelligence is defined as 3 or more - hence the rule of why half-orcs cannot have intelligence scores below 3, as then they'd be animals (and not suitable PCs). But *shrugs* what the team says is law, and so it shall be I suppose.

Due to a Bioware engine limitation - the lowest score a creature can have in an ability is 3. In PnP, undead have no Con score. In NWN, they have scores of 10. This being the case, we have to alter the PnP rules slightly. Otherwise all animals would have humanlike intelligence and all undead would be alive.

You apply your Intelligence modifier to:
The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.

To overcome that, a creature with a 3 intelligence would have to put 5 points in the speak language skill. Since your familiar cannot put points into that skill, having a talking raven would be cheesing.

Still no talking ravens. Sorry.

[Nighthawk4]

Quoth the Raven, never more

[Veilan]

Familiars regularly posess empathy, not telepathy... is the range of the empathy limited to 1 mile in Avlis as well, as it is in PnP? If yes, how long is a mile for game purposes, 1 area, 2, 3?

[dougnoel]

Familiars regularly posess empathy, not telepathy... is the range of the empathy limited to 1 mile in Avlis as well, as it is in PnP? If yes, how long is a mile for game purposes, 1 area, 2, 3?

It really depends on the area you're in. For the purposes of this discussion, you should consider the empathic range to be a single outdoor area and any indoor areas connected directly to that outdoor area. So two buildings within a city "block" area would be within range. So would the first level of a cave when standing outside that cave.

The caveats to this are:
1.) Distance is subjective to a certain degree on Avlis. This ruling should not be construed as the official measurement of a mile, but instead the range of a mage's empathic link with his familiar.
2.) If a DM tells you otherwise in game, then the maximum distance of the link is however far the DM says.

[Aerill]

Found an interesting article on Wizards of the Coast website on rules concerning familiars. Special attention to the much debated part concerning familiar's intelligence score. There is quite a lot of detail on this topic.

First Part: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050906a

Second Part: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a

Some highlights:

A raven familiar can speak one language of its master's choice as a supernatural ability.

Int: The familiar's Intelligence score. Familiars are as smart as people, though not necessarily as smart as smart people.

Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar's eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content (such as fear, hunger, happiness, curiosity) can be communicated. Note that the low Intelligence of a low-level master's familiar limits what the creature is able to communicate or understand, and even intelligent familiars see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

Because of this empathic link, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does. For instance, if his familiar has seen a room, the master can teleport into that room as if he has seen it too.

Speak with Master (Ex ): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.

Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex ): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, rats with rodents, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, toads with amphibians, weasels with similar creatures of the family Mustelidae (weasels, minks, polecats, ermines, skunks, wolverines, and badgers). Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures.

Could the rules perhaps be updated with it in mind? I am specifically interested in ravens able to communicate in one language.

[Anyamaur]

Surely everyone knows ravens can talk

Quoth the Raven, never mo- coughing fit

[dougnoel]

Found an interesting article on Wizards of the Coast website on rules concerning familiars. Special attention to the much debated part concerning familiar's intelligence score. There is quite a lot of detail on this topic.

These articles discuss material that was available when the Team first made this ruling. The ruling is based on the fact that familiars in NWN do not gain intelligence as the mage levels. They don't even start with the base intelligence that a PnP familiar does.

Thus, to allow this would basically be cheesing because familiars do not have above-average intelligence. We have discussed before replacing familiars. If that were to happen, that might change things - but it would have to be something more invasive than the simple changes done in the CTS system.

Doug

[GHENGIZ.KHAN]

bump

[girlysprite]

and I assume zombie form cant talk?

[Curois]

and I assume zombie form cant talk?

Maybe something along the lines of "huuu huuuu"

[dougnoel]

and I assume zombie form cant talk?

No. The vocal chords would no longer be fully functional. Zombies do not have the intelligence to speak. You could possibly make a moaning noise though.

[Glofindel]

I heard them say "Brainssss" before, I swear it!

[chilingsworth]

A coupple of questions:

1. in PnP, shapechange and the like don't change mental scores, and don't remove skill points.

2. My main is a 1st level wizard, among other things. He has a panther familiar, her int is listed on the character sheet as 13.