No DM client shipping with NWN2

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:00 am

Yeah... this is isn't that surprising.

I don't think NWN2 will be able to repeat NWN1's performance, if only because Bioware's support has kept NWN alive, whereas Obsidian has a reputation for being sketchy on supporting its products.

deejayvee · Post by **deejayvee** » Fri May 12, 2006 5:53 am

It's interesting that this is the second game that I know of where Obsidian is doing the sequel to a successful Bioware game - the first being KOTOR.

It's also interesting that once again Obsidian is apparently under pressure from the publisher (LucasArts apparently gave them a total of 12 months to develop KOTOR II..... and it showed).

May be both of these examples were beyond the control of Obsidian..... but there does seem to be a trend.

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:02 pm

Fuzz wrote:I don't think NWN2 will be able to repeat NWN1's performance, if only because Bioware's support has kept NWN alive, whereas Obsidian has a reputation for being sketchy on supporting its products.

Take a look at FRUA. The modding community (mainly on AOL) supported that for a decade after SSI did. I think that NWN2 will do just fine in the long run. As it ages, it will replace NWN as a low-end free MMORPG solution.

As for all this talk of not buying...I'll be buying it on the release date. After all, we can't very well have Avlis2 ready in 6 months if we wait to buy it.

Heronimous Fox · Post by **Heronimous Fox** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:23 pm

Not interested in some linear single player game....won't buy until needed for a PW. My guess on this....retrospectively fitting in something to an existing product.....double the time lines to get a more realistic estimate at a reliable version.

Elesil · Post by **Elesil** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:44 pm

"Feargus Urquhart: There will be a DM client, but as of tonight we can not tell you what of it, if any, will be in the box and what will be a patch.

Again, there will be a DM client for NWN2.

I'm really not sure how to be anymore clear than that." -- nwn2news.net

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:42 pm

dougnoel wrote:As for all this talk of not buying...I'll be buying it on the release date. After all, we can't very well have Avlis2 ready in 6 months if we wait to buy it.

Same here. At worst it will be a good single-player game with a very powerful toolset. Many of Obisidian guys have been working on some of the best RPGs before. A lot of people have been only playing custom modules in NWN1 and it is still a great game that way.

It will also take quite a lot of time for any PW to come to a state of being ready after the release and for people to learn to use the new toolset. It would be not much different from NWN1 actually. I remember quickly getting bored with it when it was first released, only to return to it a year and a half later.

Besides, there is not really any alternative on the market and won't be in the foreseeable future.

Tesh · Post by **Tesh** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:47 pm

No DM Client??? That's pretty rough. I can see why it would be the first thing to be dropped from the initial release, especially as Atari are probably not letting the release date roll back at all. Stink, but that's the way that software development goes sometimes, drop features to meet client deadlines.

PlasmaJohn wrote:
p0m wrote:+1, and when they release a linux port of the core game.
Don't hold your breath. Even Bioware took an additional year to get theirs out.

Oh and if this is a Vista Exclusive... well, that'll just have to exclude me then.

I'd be doubtful on either of those things.

Linux port is unlikly as the graphics engine is a directX jobbie, so Linux fans might have to WINE to run NWN2.

As for Vista Exclusive, no way, the scheduled release date is ahead of the revised RTM for Vista, so it's not really possible to release it as Vista Exclusive when the general public can't have Vista. I'd say that Vista Exclusive games won't be seen for at least 6 months after the RTM of Vista.

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Tesh wrote:I'd say that Vista Exclusive games won't be seen for at least 6 months after the RTM of Vista.

I would guess it will be closer to 2 years.

Mella · Post by **Mella** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:20 am

dougnoel wrote:
Tesh wrote:I'd say that Vista Exclusive games won't be seen for at least 6 months after the RTM of Vista.
I would guess it will be closer to 2 years.

Yeah, would be financial suicide to spend millions developing a game that most of the audience won't be able to use.

The thing to remember about the games industry is that most releases LOSE money (and lots of it). The game companies hope to score big on the "big ticket" titles to cover this.

Having a big ticket title on a minority OS only would not make them the money they need. Having a small title on a minority OS and they will be in the situation where unit sales would be virtually nill.

bolo · Post by **bolo** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:14 pm

The only Vista exclusive games I've even heard of has been Microsoft's port of Halo2 to the PC ( I think it's supposed to be out this x-mas, big whoop).
I guess Microsoft can afford to do that, though a 2 year old game could hardly be considered a "killer app" to push your OS.

Albion · Post by **Albion** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:23 pm

I made the mistake once of buying a "new" game soon as it came out. And it was bug ridden. The buying public are often treated as unofficial bug testers with these new rushed out games.

So i will buy NWN2 but i will give it a couple of months after it comes out before i part with any money.

And if they made it Vista only it would kill the game stone dead before it even got going. It would be intresting to know how may people who play on Avlis are thinking of buying Vista when it finally comes out.

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Sat May 13, 2006 3:09 pm

Can't say that I'm overly surprised, since Obsidian is also one of the parties that released a buggy and unfinished KotOR II: The Sith Lords well before it should have been, and did very little in the way of bugfixing once the cash was made on the product I might add. Mind you, LucasArts played a huge role in that whole fiasco since it is well-known how poorly supported their PC games are but still... Bioware wasn't the publisher for their titles and still managed to release multiple patches and fixes for both NWN and the original KotOR, well after the market had run dry for both titles.

That is why I will treat every Obsidian product with the Buyer Beware! approach in the future, waiting for reviews, community feedback, level of tech support, etc. to establish itself before I even consider buying another one of their efforts. Until they prove me wrong, I'll just keep playing/enjoying the Bioware version of NWN - at least I know it's been well-supported and is more than functional, despite its quirks.

*goes back to lurking*

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:00 pm

I think I missed something. What is Vista?

PsiOmega · Post by **PsiOmega** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:04 pm

Microsofts next Windows OS.

IceThorn · Post by **IceThorn** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:08 pm

PsiOmega wrote:Microsofts next Windows OS.

Da Ebul

Xeo · Post by **Xeo** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:35 pm

Or is this a money spinner?

Pay anthore £20 for the DM cleint expansion pack and extra toolset gizmo's?

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Sat May 13, 2006 7:19 pm

Alphonse wrote:Deider working for Obsidian these days?

No fair insulting fellow former staff, Al. You know full well that if I were working for Obsidian there'd be a DM client - it'd just be buggy as all hell.

No DM client upon release is not the end of the world. All those folks at the Bioware site seem to easily forget that people who play NWN online make up a very small percentage of the people who bought the game. How many millions of copies did NWN sell, and how many millions will NWN2 sell? And how many thousands of folks play NWN online?

It DOES take time to create a PW. Yeah, there were PWs out within a week of NWN's debut, but they were shit. They got better, but at first they were complete crap.

Very worst case, we all just make our PWs in NWN. Avlis will still be top of the heap - hell, it might even get better, since there will be no division of labor between 1 & 2. And people making new PWs... well, I won't have to upgrade my computer after all

bolo · Post by **bolo** » Sat May 13, 2006 7:20 pm

Some stuff that was pulled off the official BioWare thread..

"The devs have spoken:

JE Sawyer on Atari's who's to blame:

Guys, there are plenty of issues over which I would gleefully blame the publisher. This is not one of them. We (Obsidian) defined the overall scope of the game and the fact that the DM client got pushed out is our responsibility.

Feargus Urquhart confirms it WILL be in:

There will be a DM client, but as of tonight we can not tell you what of it, if any, will be in the box and what will be a patch.

Again, there will be a DM client for NWN2.

I'm really not sure how to be anymore clear than that.

And another Urquhart quote:

Not to repeat what I said in the other topic about this, but I did want to say here that we understand the necessity and the need for a DM Client. However, as of tonight, we do not have a specific plan as to what of the DM Client we can provide in the box at ship and what will be provided as a patch.

To be clear, since things can be interpreted many different ways, there will be a DM Client for NWN2. We want it to have all the functionality as the current NWN1. I say want in that sentance, because I'm at E3, it's almost 11pm and I hadn't planned on talking about it today.

We are going to be putting plans together in the next couple of weeks having to do with the DM Client. When we have those plans we will explain them in detail to everyone. Please don't think that means one of the plans is that there will be no DM Client - it doesn't mean that at all.

All that I can ask at this point is to please bear with us.[

Last one:

On the subject of the DM client I did want to say a couple of things:

1) We at Obsidian know the importance of the DM client as it relates to the running of PWs. We want PWs to exist for NWN2, so we need to support the DM client.

2) We are going to be talking over the next couple of weeks to see what we will have at launch and when we will have a more final roadmap when it comes to the complete DM Client.

I do apologize for this being the way the information got to all of you about the DM Client, it's not what we intended. I was planning to have us make an announcement in the next few weeks about it, after we had gotten some more of our planning done. "

slave_of_emotions · Post by **slave_of_emotions** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:02 pm

I suppose all new PWs will have to wait till Bioware releases Dragon Age, sadly they dont give many updates about it, but i guess they will simply use the engine from NWN2 for it and wait for it... Bioware has already such a good reputation and growed over time that they can just say no to a job.. obsidian is already forced to relase after KOTOR 2 another half done game... *sighs*

PlasmaJohn · Post by **PlasmaJohn** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:27 pm

The issue isn't that the DM client is missing but that Obs had to defer a critical feature to meet the launch date. It's a desperation move reminiscent of Interplay in its death throes. A shame really and I truely hope that NWN2 survives.

It's a wake-up call that should cause many planned NWN2 PW projects to take a wait-and-see approach. We still have people really interested in playing with the tools on launch. I encourage and applaud that.

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Sun May 14, 2006 4:14 am

It seems to me that there's a lot of looking at NWN through rose-colored glasses. I remember when NWN was announced. I remember playing with the toolset before it was released. I remember being sorely disappointed by what they gave us initially. Every time I add a new feature, I deplore the short-sightedness of this or that design decision.

This doesn't mean I think Bioware did a bad job. The game has limitations. NWN2 will have limitations too. NWN2 is also a game with better graphics and new features. So far what I've heard about have been sound design decisions. I would be much more worried if Obsidian was promising us the stars.

I've worked at a number of game companies. There's a difference between the spin of a floundering company and a bad game. Obsidian could have given us a buggy DM client and then on release day said, "We'll fix the bugs in the first patch." They haven't done that, and I'm willing to cut them some slack for that. I have gotten way more than my money's worth out of NWN, as I did with FRUA before it. I expect the same from NWN2.

Having said that, there are a number of really good things about NWN2 that I think are being overlooked:

- The scripting system is an enhanced version of NWN's.
This extends to the fact that the underlying GFF structures are remaining the same. This means things like Leto will continue to work with little or no changes necessary.

Most of Avlis' systems will also work with little to no changes. This means we can continue to develop new things without having to rewrite old code. It also means code written for NWN2 can be back-ported for NWN use with little change.

- Creatures have gotten a major upgrade.
NWN2 has dynamic creatures with improved AI. We will be able to change the skin color of creatures, resize them, and humanoid models actually reflect the equipment on them. Dynamic races will be built into the game.

This also has a positive impact on new content. While Obsidian has said the models have gotten more complicated, the people who can create new models will be able to make models that are easily customizable in-game by anyone who can use the toolset.

- PCs have gotten upgrades.
Subraces are now a part of character creation. The rules for creating a drow or tiefling are built into the game. Hopefully this will mean adding new subraces as part of character creation will be possible. Subraces might also allow all race creation to be done in the character creator. Imagine applying orc as a subrace for half-orc in the character creator. Your stats and model are adjusted and you're ready to play!

Armor and clothing will remain customizable, and includes open-faced helms that allow you to see your character's face. If you kill the lizardman king and loot his armor, it will look the same on you, and everyone will know you killed the lizardman king.

- The new graphics are awesome.
Special effects can be edited and created in the toolset. This means a coldball won't look like icicles raining from the sky. It also means that developing new spells will be much easier.

Overland terrain will be dynamic and interesting. You'll actually come across beautiful secret druid glades that you want to take screenshots of, just because they look so cool. Interior areas will also be more dynamic because there won't be bookshelves atatched to every interior wall.

- The toolset has been kicked up a notch.
In addition to the scripting, dynamic creatures and a particle editor, the toolset adds features to area building and conversations. All of these features are time savers that allow more creative, unique content and less piddling about. You can copy terrain as templates, making replication of houses and other places fast and easy. Conversations have been extended to help with storing variables to keep the number of scripts needed way down.

-------------------------------------------------

Like I said, I'll be getting it when it comes out. I will be at the forefront of the NWN2 Avlis effort. I have already started thinking about ways we can work with what Obsidian has said they're giving us. Yes, there are differences from NWN. Yes, some of them may require us to re-think the way we implement a PW. But ultimately, I think that NWN2 is going to offer the same great experience that NWN has - and I don't think that it has to take away from the current Avlis to do that.

Doug

pstanton · Post by **pstanton** » Sun May 14, 2006 4:57 am

but still, no DM client on release.

that does kinda fuck all plans for NWN2 Avlis for the time being.

Kharkiv · Post by **Kharkiv** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:27 am

pstanton wrote:but still, no DM client on release.

that does kinda fuck all plans for NWN2 Avlis for the time being.

I dont know.. maybe I'm only trying to look at the glass half full, but it does not bother me overly much that its not coming out with the release.

They said they've focused on story MUCH more on NWN2 as compared to NWN1. Also, while the world takes much time to build, the DM client I'm pretty much positive will come out by the time any PW would like to open for buisness.

And you can enjoy the single player while your waiting for NWN2 Avlis

Just my .02

~Kharkiv

bolo · Post by **bolo** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:27 am

Not necessarily, it's not like you can make a server overnight anyway. I am definitely taking a wait and see attitude about NWN2 now, but I excpect I'll buy it eventually regardless.
As the release date gets closer, I expect we'll hear something more definite.

Besides, it's not like Avlis is going anywhere any time soon anyhow.

As always, Doug steps in as the voice of reason

Bah, Kharkiv, you dang powertyper!
Those are good points though.The single play looks and sounds pretty cool.I am looking forward to creating a ranger under 3.5, and playing dress up er, I mean, being able to customise my character's looks even more.

Kharkiv · Post by **Kharkiv** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:33 am

dougnoel wrote:It seems to me that there's a lot of looking at NWN through rose-colored glasses. I remember when NWN was announced. I remember playing with the toolset before it was released. I remember being sorely disappointed by what they gave us initially. Every time I add a new feature, I deplore the short-sightedness of this or that design decision.

This doesn't mean I think Bioware did a bad job. The game has limitations. NWN2 will have limitations too. NWN2 is also a game with better graphics and new features. So far what I've heard about have been sound design decisions. I would be much more worried if Obsidian was promising us the stars.

I've worked at a number of game companies. There's a difference between the spin of a floundering company and a bad game. Obsidian could have given us a buggy DM client and then on release day said, "We'll fix the bugs in the first patch." They haven't done that, and I'm willing to cut them some slack for that. I have gotten way more than my money's worth out of NWN, as I did with FRUA before it. I expect the same from NWN2.

Having said that, there are a number of really good things about NWN2 that I think are being overlooked:

- The scripting system is an enhanced version of NWN's.
This extends to the fact that the underlying GFF structures are remaining the same. This means things like Leto will continue to work with little or no changes necessary.

Most of Avlis' systems will also work with little to no changes. This means we can continue to develop new things without having to rewrite old code. It also means code written for NWN2 can be back-ported for NWN use with little change.

- Creatures have gotten a major upgrade.
NWN2 has dynamic creatures with improved AI. We will be able to change the skin color of creatures, resize them, and humanoid models actually reflect the equipment on them. Dynamic races will be built into the game.

This also has a positive impact on new content. While Obsidian has said the models have gotten more complicated, the people who can create new models will be able to make models that are easily customizable in-game by anyone who can use the toolset.

- PCs have gotten upgrades.
Subraces are now a part of character creation. The rules for creating a drow or tiefling are built into the game. Hopefully this will mean adding new subraces as part of character creation will be possible. Subraces might also allow all race creation to be done in the character creator. Imagine applying orc as a subrace for half-orc in the character creator. Your stats and model are adjusted and you're ready to play!

Armor and clothing will remain customizable, and includes open-faced helms that allow you to see your character's face. If you kill the lizardman king and loot his armor, it will look the same on you, and everyone will know you killed the lizardman king.

- The new graphics are awesome.
Special effects can be edited and created in the toolset. This means a coldball won't look like icicles raining from the sky. It also means that developing new spells will be much easier.

Overland terrain will be dynamic and interesting. You'll actually come across beautiful secret druid glades that you want to take screenshots of, just because they look so cool. Interior areas will also be more dynamic because there won't be bookshelves atatched to every interior wall.

- The toolset has been kicked up a notch.
In addition to the scripting, dynamic creatures and a particle editor, the toolset adds features to area building and conversations. All of these features are time savers that allow more creative, unique content and less piddling about. You can copy terrain as templates, making replication of houses and other places fast and easy. Conversations have been extended to help with storing variables to keep the number of scripts needed way down.

-------------------------------------------------

Like I said, I'll be getting it when it comes out. I will be at the forefront of the NWN2 Avlis effort. I have already started thinking about ways we can work with what Obsidian has said they're giving us. Yes, there are differences from NWN. Yes, some of them may require us to re-think the way we implement a PW. But ultimately, I think that NWN2 is going to offer the same great experience that NWN has - and I don't think that it has to take away from the current Avlis to do that.

Doug

and +1

((sorry, I really should be reading these threads before I answer a shorter version of what someone else wrote.. but hey, I'm sleepgriefed

))