Are Dev Critting NPCs fun.

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:01 pm

The best Equalisers do not have Devastating Critical. And they are MUCH nastier.

The Devastating Critical Equalisers are DM-spawned only. If a DM is using an NPC with mega death magic or dev. crit., it's probably time to reconsider the worth of sticking around. IE, move along or die.

Rain&Clouds · Post by **Rain&Clouds** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:08 pm

So it would have been better if instead of an NPC with devastating critical you got a level say, 30, NPC mage to cast time stop over and over again and kill you during the effect?

He was there to represent IMPOSSIBLE ODDS it doesn't matter how you die, you just do. You could instead be surrounded by hundreds NPC's with true seeing, and with the lag it would cause you would have died too (probably along with the Wilderness).

They are only DM spawned, which makes them perfect. We all get into places we're not supposed to be every now and then (Drotid's pass while thousands of lizards poured down the pass

) if a DM gives you the chance to leave, be thankful, you were VERY lucky. If a DM decides to keep it fair to everyone else you will just die.

Kyrn Cyrnea · Post by **Kyrn Cyrnea** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:22 pm

NWDuneAuron wrote:If a DM is using an NPC with mega death magic or dev. crit.,

How does one know that an NPC has such feat unless one does suffer such attack?

NWDuneAuron wrote:it's probably time to reconsider the worth of sticking around. IE, move along or die.

Yes but when one does get Dev. crit, it's too late to reconsider.

I think the issue with NPC with Dev. Crit. is that it is an Epic feat bestowed on someone whose Epicness is only known to the DM. Make an NCP, called Sir Iwilldevcrityourarseoffunlessyourunfastawayfromhere then eveyone would know to move along or die before dying

Rain&Clouds · Post by **Rain&Clouds** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:51 pm

And once you see the name tag you know it's him? Just examine the NPC if it makes you feel better, see if it's one of those equalizers (I've never seen one so I don't know if they're special) and if it is pretend it's Sir Whatever. Don't forget the floaty names are OOC.

pedsdmd · Post by **pedsdmd** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:07 pm

my 2 cents..

I dont think anything that you dont have a chance against is no fun.. People need to stop talking about death magic because there are spells to prevent that as well as reasonable saves.

Dont forget that Dev. Crit. u need to save against EVERY TIME. If you have Dev Crit it means you have a AB that can proobably hit most Ac's. A fighter with 4-5 attacks is gonna kill you in 1-3 rds with no real chance.

IMo the Dc needs to be lowered or the Damage needs to increase like Smite Evil/Good..

Increase the damge and the crit multiplier and I think most people would be cool with that and the epic fighter would still invoke the fear that they deserve.

ps. Rhiss is a good example of a awesome fighter and doesnt have dev. crit I think. He kicks ass and people fear him but people have a small chance to beat him with group tactics and overwhelming #'s.. He ia a weaponmaster who is feared without Dev. Crit. and he killes me in 2-3 rds as opposed to 1 rd with no chance..

thats a Huge difference in the Fun and Rp factor..

back to my posts about NPC's with identity, I think it would be cool if you knew what NPC's had it so you coiuld avoid them or RP it well.

If a DM wants to represent huge armies by spawning them thats there perogative, It would be nice to know who and where its coming from. Instead of seeing the generic name equalizer and getting dev. Crit. and THEN finding out..

i.e If we see "Jonas the equlizer of death" patrolling blandeburg we know to retreat or get the general

Rain&Clouds · Post by **Rain&Clouds** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:09 pm

It's not about fun it's about realism. Realism is why we don't just gather some epic characters and march into Mikona, even though if we do it, NPC wise, we can probably kill them all. Well that and the fact we don't want to hurt them...

If there is an unbeatable NPC, you're not supposed to be there to have fun in the first place!

pedsdmd · Post by **pedsdmd** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:11 pm

Rain&Clouds wrote:It's not about fun it's about realism. Realism is why we don't just gather some epic characters and march into Mikona, even though if we do it, NPC wise, we can probably kill them all. Well that and the fact we don't want to hurt them...

If there is an unbeatable NPC, you're not supposed to be there to have fun in the first place!

The Poll asks if it is Fun not if it is Realistic, so My answer is No

Rain&Clouds · Post by **Rain&Clouds** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:20 pm

Fair enough... the poll just won't accomplish anything this way if the point is to know if they're fun or not. I think it's fun to kill guards in Mikona, Elv and I did that on those test servers.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:50 pm

the point was made above. how do i know they have dev crit? The one who we killed was "impossible" to me. We had to attack as he had just come from behind us and killed or friend. So we finally managed to get him with me being to bleeding once and my other friend twice. the one with dev crit actually said "challenging".

Naieth happened to be the Dm, but other than the fact that he was the last one to do this, this isnt a rant about him. i have had this happen A LOT. Hence the poll.

And Rainandclouds, if this isnt about fun, what is it?

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:11 pm

Simple, fear every oppenent, and stop trusting the OOC pull-down. You have now learned Equalizers are very dangerous, start treating them as such. I could make a M'chek soldier beat you to death, don't trust the OOC.

Glocknal · Post by **Glocknal** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:17 pm

Sickocrow wrote: I could make a M'chek soldier beat you to death, don't trust the OOC.

You could make one do that, but all you have to do is ask Drake

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:21 pm

Ever notice how the different Equalizers use different types of weapons? Now, to follow this question even further, ever notice what type of weapon the Dev. Crit. Equalizers use? Both army groups have huge amounts of IC intelligence on various sources, so what is stopping you from listing the various types of Equalizers encountered and the types of weapons and tactics they use? I would think a foe representing this type of danger to a patrol would have garnered some kind warning thread for all army PCs to read up on, so that when a patrol does happen to run into an Equalizer wielding a <specific weapon type censored> they might think twice about engaging and instead live to fight on somewhere else.

My point is, NPCs with Dev. Crit. are nothing more than another tool at the DMs disposal - not every spawn is meant to be killed, and not every battle is meant to be won. I can understand players getting frustrated with getting killed with an NPC using this particular feat, which is why they are not used in standard spawns. However they do serve a purpose and a use, and as long as it is used in moderation I see absolutely no problem in one being used when necessary.

Arnimane · Post by **Arnimane** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:39 pm

Great point King......(now how about a peanutbutter and banannasammich? Hey!!

)

Also of note here is someones fussing about getting creamed AFTER killing npc's 10 levels above them?

Dood, I'd say you were given a reality check.

Nimrod25 · Post by **Nimrod25** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:44 pm

Arnimane wrote:Personally I don't give a whit. Use what you like. If you prefer HiPS use it(I believe you do no?). If you prefer DEvCRit, use that(I believe its used too no?). If you prefer to launch flamin cows outta yer arsehole...well, stand downwind.

But for the love of mike, above all spend yer time here looking for ways to enjoy the immersion!!!!

*claps and whistles* well said!

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:04 pm

Arnimane wrote:Great point King......(now how about a peanutbutter and banannasammich? Hey!! )

Also of note here is someones fussing about getting creamed AFTER killing npc's 10 levels above them? Dood, I'd say you were given a reality check.

I beat the one ten levels above me with tactics, and one other my level. it was good fun. now if another one of them spawned i would of probably gone, shit. but when you see lower level one, you think ok, we can do this. but one shot kill. now the reason for this poll was opinions. I never ranted untill it was turned into one. SO peronally if you dont give a shit for the subject dont post on the thread. if you do go ahead and give your point of view.

apandapion · Post by **apandapion** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:41 pm

I could see the save DC being lowered, myself.

Ravan Seiryu · Post by **Ravan Seiryu** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:52 pm

One simple request for DMs. If single opponent is used to represent vast number of army present. Can we get message like, *you see large number of M'Chek flag raised in distance* etc. So the we know what to expect?

I know in some case, we have no chance of winning and should retreat, and have done so. But I do hope we are given fair chance to retreat before Dev Crit, or other meanies are unleashed. As the encounter mentioned by Talwin was my first encounter with Dev Crit Equalizer, I've had no clue.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:02 pm

Just for the people who asked about changing Dev Crit.

Simple answer:
Can't do.

More complex answer:
Devastating Critical(like all feats) is hard-coded.

Theoritically, it's possible to code a work around using a dummy feat that will let area designers disable dev crit based on area, time of day, weapon type, etc.(Same can be done for HiPS so it only works at night, for example.)

Whether this would be worth the effort? I honestly don't know and I somehow doubt it.

apandapion · Post by **apandapion** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:35 pm

Rain&Clouds wrote:It's not about fun it's about realism. Realism is why we don't just gather some epic characters and march into Mikona, even though if we do it, NPC wise, we can probably kill them all. Well that and the fact we don't want to hurt them... :p

If there is an unbeatable NPC, you're not supposed to be there to have fun in the first place!

If you want to trot out the realism arguments, one has to wonder why you have to hit someone about a dozen times with a sword when, really, one or two good swings should do it. Once the arterial bleeding starts they just flop around a lot.

As for the 10 + clevel + strength modifier - an empowered ray of enfeeblement cast by a level 22 caster could drop the devcrit npc's str by by (1d6 + 11)*1.5, which would drop the devcrit save DC by, uh, a maximum of 12. It's too bad that ray of enfeeblement isn't a "proper" ray spell, as most people with dev crit will have very good fort saves, and NWN Ray of Enfeeblement allows a fort save. (Even without changing the spell, arcane casters with a spell focuses in necromancy might find the spell useful in this regard.)

Could we get RoE spellhooked to work as per the 3.5 srd? That would give at least one way for people to slow down a devcritter, even if it dropped the effect some. The maximum 1d6+5 effect in the SRD, empowered, would drop the target's str 9 to 16 points. It would usually hit a warrior who gets much of his AR from armor, as in the 3.5 SRD it's a touch attack. In 3.0 it seems fairly useless - most targets you would want to cast it on would have no trouble making a fort save.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:55 pm

Ravan Seiryu wrote:One simple request for DMs. If single opponent is used to represent vast number of army present. Can we get message like, *you see large number of M'Chek flag raised in distance* etc. So the we know what to expect?

I know in some case, we have no chance of winning and should retreat, and have done so. But I do hope we are given fair chance to retreat before Dev Crit, or other meanies are unleashed. As the encounter mentioned by Talwin was my first encounter with Dev Crit Equalizer, I've had no clue.

Now that would be a GREAT idea. If we KNEW it was unsurmountable odds, then thats makes it a different kettle of fish.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:57 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:if single opponent is used to represent vast number of army present. Can we get message like, *you see large number of M'Chek flag raised in distance* etc. So the we know what to expect?

*actually does this, over 100 players can attest*

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:59 pm

Ok, then perhaps the other Dms didnt? I know a lot are apprentices so perhaps that can be added to the guide/lesson/tutorials etc.?

Rhissaerk Jalesh · Post by **Rhissaerk Jalesh** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:02 pm

I'd love that as well. If you're not suppose to be somewhere, a simple 'scary emote' gets the messege across fast and gives everyone a chance to run away, or stay and fight futilely and get horribly, horribly beaten.

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:05 pm

I think that's a matter of style, not a veteran/apprentice thing

Moredo · Post by **Moredo** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:08 pm

I beat the one ten levels above me with tactics, and one other my level.

You didn't beat him due to tactics, you beat him because he was the only one there due to game limitations. Sure, he was powerful, but he represents thousands of troops. Don't you get that?

And when the DM saw your wild cowboy routine, he layed the smackdown on you, something which really should have happened in the prior fight. Now this DM was obviously being nice, and asked you to leave.. but you attacked him. I can't phantom why you would expect to survive that?

Sure, I can get pissed off when I encounter DM's who use SetSTR, DEX, CON, dev. crit. or whatever when I'm on a normal dungeon cravling trip. But the Warzone isn't your normal dungeon, sure it got spawns, but it's a designed area where the longest, largest, biggest, best (or whatever you want to call it) plot in Avlis takes place.

It all about the situation, Dala and Quat once attacked a base, then retreated and attacked again five minutes later. Now since this was a pretty stupid ass thing to do, the DM 'fixed' some of the NPC's there, and they slaughtered two of our strongest fighters. They didn't stand a chance..

Much like you didn't stand a chance. Does it really matter which tool the DM uses? Your actions have consequences, if you do something not terribly smart like a gung-ho attack on Blandenberg, you'll sometimes get to feel them.

And isn't that really what happened here?

Edit: Spelling stuffs