Are Dev Critting NPCs fun.

[Kieron]

I was present at this fight and I was also dev critted twice and you know what I thought it was great... I think it is perfectly realistic for some towering Fire Giant to bring a Huge Dual Bladed axe down on Celedor's puny elven body with enough force and trauma to drop me to the ground to the brink of death in one shot.

Perhaps the solution is only to give dev crit to the chosen of Maleki? seems even the nanshi support that concept

[kombinat]

They're no more fun than dev. crit PC's

What he said.

[Nighthawk4]

To use an American phrase, if I may, DevCrit sucks

IMHO, of course.

Some situations may be exceptionally difficult - especially if you are alone. However, I feel it is unfair to make anything completely impossible. I have no doubt that some of my colleagues will disagree - no offence - no specific individuals in mind.

In the words of HHGTTG, DevCrit is not a Good Thing

[kombinat]

I'm of the opinion that an NPC or PC can be terrifying, unbeatable, nasty and just downright mean without having Dev Crit. And I'll prove it.....

[Nimrod25]

this wasnt a rant thread. this was an opinion poll.

and someone said about if you save once then get outta there as he nearly took your head off, well the save on that npc was 33. with a natural 20 i could get 28.

So bring a fighter type so that somone with you has a chance of surviving long enough to do some damage. Low fort is one of the weaknesses of rogue types, everybody has weaknesses, everybody has to deal with them.

Dev crit represents the abilities of a true master in the use of his chosen weapon, a person strong enough and skilled enough to strike fatally with ease. Warriors of such skill and experience as epic warriors should be feared for their ability to kill as such.

My own personal opinion is that insta-death abilities of any kind are teh suck. I just don't like them in my roleplaying games, but that's me. Character life/death or NPC life/death is not something I like seeing come down to an opposed dice roll. This has nothing to do with liking/disliking a challenge, I just don't like insta-death abilities for anyone. It cheapens the experience for me.

High level DnD is packed with instant death spells, and it only takes some dispelling to make almost anyone suceptable to death magic. You'd have to rewrite the whole magic system to remove instant death attacks.

Yeah, the epic area of necromancy is to be truly feared. Spells like momento mori and tolodine's can be very scary. Personnally i hope these are implemented in the epic spell system being designed over copap, epic necromancers are surrounded by fear and hatred for a good reason. They are the types heroes should strive to knock off.

[The hand04]

I'm just going to make a few comments beings the 'Dev Crit' thing is getting old. Those equalizers they are talking about are supposed to represent powerful warriors as said above. If your mage or rogue can't handle a melee bout with a warrior, which mages and rogues are not supposed to be able to, then try a different tactic. If your twink dexterity based fighter/Bard can't handle being disarmed or knocked down, then try a different tactic. Regroup, strategize, adapt and overcome. Most all epic characters are very devastating in thier own right. It is merely impossible to establish a level of balance between classes, feats, spells, etc on NwN.

[Serineth Swiftpaw]

It isn't just Rogues that can't handle them, pretty much no-one can handle them (unless it's from a distance). The DC for Dev Crit will very quickly rise about 40. No-one is going to save that (bar a few special people).

[Talwin Hawkins]

lets get this right. IGNORE PC DEV CRIT. i really dont give a shit, its a dead horse. im talking about NPCs. and what NH4 and kombinat said. if im fighting and getting pwned at least i have half a chance of getting away. but with dev crit, im dead, no running away, no tactic. dead. and for you information i did have a fighter with me. level 20 i believe. PWNED as easily as i was.

[Gairus]

They tend to get used as a slightly more IC DM kill. *shrugs*

[Wyrmwing]

M'Chek has Dev Crit NPC's. T'Nanshi has Bioware True Sight ones. Sounds balanced to me.

So let's take both away, and we'll have you wince again everytime anyone butchers everyone in Le'Or. *rolls eyes* I don't care how unfair it is really. NPC's like those represent a number higher than one, which means you're pretty much a goner when you see them. Suck it up and continue.

[Serineth Swiftpaw]

M'Chek has Dev Crit NPC's. T'Nanshi has Bioware True Sight ones. Sounds balanced to me.

It's the watchmasters that have TS in LeOr itself isn't it? The Mikona guards now also have TS...

[Wyrmwing]

M'Chek has Dev Crit NPC's. T'Nanshi has Bioware True Sight ones. Sounds balanced to me.

It's the watchmasters that have TS in LeOr itself isn't it? The Mikona guards now also have TS...

They do? Great! Cheers everyone for the few that either abuse the engine the most, and those that whine the hardest afterwards about it.

I swear.. in a bit every npc has dev crit and TS because someone thinks it's unfair that they have it and another doesn't. Call me pessimistic if you want, but epic levels is the worst thing that ever happened to NWN.

[Katroine]

The TS guards were temporary and are gone, to my knowledge. We have no TS Mikona guards now unless DM spawned.

[Alex Noble]

I'm of the opinion that an NPC or PC can be terrifying, unbeatable, nasty and just downright mean without having Dev Crit. And I'll prove it.....

Thats Great!! You build your way I will mine. Unless you are one of the custom races Dev Crit is not easy to get, and even with a DC in the low 30's NPC's save more than half the time. When I started my Main Dev Crit and the PrC's were not even in the game. And it was the only powerful feat he had the required other feats for. So I went for it spent Epic Feats on strenght. He only started with a 16. I have been hit by dispells and then death magic by NPC's with DC's in the 60's. The DC on any mages death magic is higher than the DC on the some level of dev Crit easy. And if you are under level 20 do you think you have a chance on a level 25+ wizard with a focus on death magic. Come on two feats and they have a +6 on the DC. You want to make fort saves? I think there are items and feats out there that might help. And Yes My Character so far has taked all the non-epic + to save feats. And the Epic fort is next on his list.

My main dose not CvC but you never know what will happen. But if he's attacked expect the biggest gun he's got.

[Micah]

If I had the patience, I would work up my dual dagger weaponmaster alt (well...that's what I was gonna hope he would eventually be), and take dev crit. It would be LOTS of fun! Get in a knife fight with somebody that actually knows how to use them...SCHWAK!

As for the rest of the devcritters. *shrugs* To each their own. Powergaming dev critters suck. Well roleplayed, patient devcritters deserve the power.

[Vergilius]

I have been hit by dispells and then death magic by NPC's with DC's in the 60's. The DC on any mages death magic is higher than the DC on the some level of dev Crit easy.

Untrue. NPCs should not be in the 60s unless a DM or builder really twinked their stats out.

As for a mage DC, the formula is

10+spell level+primary casting stat+feats

Spell level and feats are fixed if you take them, so they only way to bump up that save is with the stats.

So for an Epic mage, you're gonna have 10+9+6+stats, or 25+stats, the stats usually being between +8 and +15, depending level, items and starting stats. Perhaps a DC of 40 at level 40.

The formula for dev-crit is 10+half character level+STR MOD, so you're looking at around 40-45 at level 40. Unless a character is a high-str race, they'll likely get dev crit between 27-30 if they build directly for it, which puts the starting DC at around 35.

NPCs with either of uber death magic or dev-crit should be special uniquely named NPCs.

DO PCs stand a chance against DC 40s? Yes, some will and some won't, but it will take a well-built character of the appropriate class. For example, a well-built fighter would have a fort of 12 for 1-20, and 10 for 21-40, for 22 base, plus CON, plus items, plus feats, all of which are variable. Now, its at least possible for all of these to add up into the 40s, not that very many characters will do so. However, the average tank build should have no problems hitting the high 30s, which at least puts them close to the DC. Again, another character might not want to equip themselves with fort gear, or to take the feats, but at least they had the choice.

[Alex Noble]

Untrue. NPCs should not be in the 60s unless a DM or builder really twinked their stats out.

I was a DM spawn. Fire Gaint in Deglos I rember it very well.


But let me put this in prespective. You see three epic level spawned NPC's say not umber but level 25-30. One is a Mage, one is a Cleric, and the third is a non Dev Crit fighter. I tell you the the first two are scary..you know what they can do and it would be. "Get the Mage...take out the Cleric" "Do not worry about the fighter we will take care of him when the others are down" "Just chuge heals he will go down in time...we can take him now problem."

Now you see a mage, a cleric and a dev crit fighter. I Know that it would be hard to tell by looking the first time. But unless you are at or above them in level it would be: "you sure we want to screw with these guys". "That Fighter who has spent years training is going to kick the shit out of us before we can get to that mage." Face it any group with some healing can take out a fighter type. Even one several levels lower if they work together without to much trouble. They do not even have to plan much more than.."you got enough heal kits right?" With the mage or the cleric if they do not plan well or they mess up a little they are toast. Nobody fears the fighters in this game. Its just pound away until he goes down. I say an epic level fighter should be feared. They are no cake walk they eat PC's like you for breakfest.

DO PCs stand a chance against DC 40s

My main is only level 28. With Con and save items he runs with a fort of 33 For dev crit, 35 for death magic (dwarf save). But having good saves is someting he has worked for/traded for. If you have not put it into your character do not expect him to make the saves.

[Urizen]

Nobody fears the fighters in this game. Its just pound away until he goes down. I say an epic level fighter should be feared. They are no cake walk they eat PC's like you for breakfest.

I agree, but I dont think DevCrit is the way to go.

[Naieth]

Nobody fears the fighters in this game. Its just pound away until he goes down. I say an epic level fighter should be feared. They are no cake walk they eat PC's like you for breakfest.

Heh, I do for one. And I doubt I will be alone in this. A profer fighter is scary, a buffed fighter is even more scary.

[loki70]

Okay, my $0.02

Dev crit is one of those feats that is intended for epic vs. epic combat. Would I willingly go at someone with dev crit, PC or NPC? Of course not. My 15th level monk has managed to save against dev crit once, and he was fully buffed. But, by the same token, there are tons of things that that will kill him in one shot. Water elementals, beholders, gorgons, 3 dwarf mercs (he spawns 5, but can usually lose 2 by running around a lot), high level mages with bigby's, clerics with destruction, other monks with quivering palm, the list goes on and on. The mercs are the worst, because he can actually beat the 5 half the time by himself (false sense of confidence). The point is that, alone or in a party, my char dies a lot. I get crit sneak attacked going in the wrong place in LeOr (damn twig blights) for 120hp. I get the same in the salt mines. I just got killed in Deglos (you ever try to find a death corpse in Deglos??) Can I defend against all of these one shot kills all the time? Hell no. I can't suck down death ward potions, take invis potions, and mages fight when you try to stuff them in your pocket. I don't have any summons to send off to their death to test the waters, and I can't change myself into a golem or death itself, or anything else really. I think it is utterly fair that epics get Dev Critted once in a while for being in the wrong area at the wrong time. Sounds like some balance for all the little guys that get killed constantly.

[Arnimane]

Personally I don't give a whit. Use what you like. If you prefer HiPS use it(I believe you do no?). If you prefer DEvCRit, use that(I believe its used too no?). If you prefer to launch flamin cows outta yer arsehole...well, stand downwind.

But for the love of mike, above all spend yer time here looking for ways to enjoy the immersion!!!!

[Tharliss]

But for the love of mike, above all spend yer time here looking for ways to enjoy the immersion!!!!

*Applauds and goes back to playing the game*

[Dirk Cutlass]

They are no more fun than a high level NPC mage casting Death Magic on a fighter with crap Will saves

[Talwin Hawkins]

NPCs with either of uber death magic or dev-crit should be special uniquely named NPCs.

Now THATS a good quote!

And the other one. Hips rocks your socks off. but the fact that these particular npcs im talking about can spot me quite easily, an epic level stealth specialist makes it even more nasty.

My biggest gripe with that situation was that when we pwned an npc 10 level s higher than ourself, even though the bastard chugged 3 heals, a HARDER one was spawned after. that IMO was absolutely bollocks. there was no way we could of won. period. BUT even if that was the point. why not get 4 of them high level nasty bastards. When i see ONE npc. whether i metagame the description and it says impossible or not. i still think...i gotta chance here. if i see 4-5 impossible bastards i think....lets just ignore these.

But from one of the top Dms himself. OOBER NPCS SHOULD BE NAMED! If i saw General Deth, the chances are i would not engage him as i would quite likely expect to be pwned.

[Naieth]

that IMO was absolutely bollocks. there was no way we could of won. period.

The Equaliser told them to go away and would have let them get away, Talon used a shadow daze attack on him instead of leaving, the Equaliser attacked. If you still have problems with this, staff@avlis.org