Concerning Assassin's death attack

[Hortis]

Yeah, Dralix, that's twice you've made my day recently. You might just be my new best friend!

Well, except for the inherent sadness (and blatant untruth) of that.

[Liartes]

I resent that.

-Rock

[Fire Monkey]

Meh, I'm the king of stupid coments. Why were you even supprised. And I quote "it's all about RPing well making it fun for both players". I don't see how being a rock or paralyzed for ages is fun for the other player.

*sighs* as any situation it provides excellent material for rp. You have to emote rockiness, you have to think like a rock, you have to be the rock.......

[Fuzz]

I have some rocks for Enverex right here...

/me grabs something...

[modigliani]

Ahem. Back on task, gentlemen.

Is it safe to assume that if you carefully position yourself behind a target and hit him with a succesful Death Attack, then stay out of his LOS and, perhaps, whisper in his ear in a *muffled voice*, that person has no chance to know who you are, what you were wearing, your floaty name, etc.?

The correct answer here is yes, by the way. But for the sake of discussion, I open the floor...

[kombinat]

I don't think there is any discussion required. If someone goes to that length, and gets lucky enough for it to work, then ceding an inability to identify them is hardly an ask.
If they fub their Hide roll, fub their Move Silently roll, fub their attack roll vs. your AC, or you don't fub your Fortitude save, then there's a chance of seeing your attacker. If all four of those go against you, then I would say there isn't.

[modigliani]

So is the Death Attack changed in any way with the 1.64 update? I was under the impression that a certain 1st level spell can no longer render one immune to it, and only true paralysis immunity will protect you.

Please tell me this is so.

After you do that, can you tell me if there are other changes involving the Assassin PrC?

And is poison that can be applied to weapons indigenous to Avlis? Can it be crafted?

And, and, and....

Okay, that's all.

Cheers!

[kombinat]

First thing I've noticed is that it now says "*Death Attack*" above your head before, like a sneak attack.

Unfortunately, mind spell immunity still renders one invulnerable to paralysis from being stabbed

No other changes that I've noticed.

[TiVO25]

I realize this topic has been dead for a little while now, but I was busy back then, and just had to comment. The first quote by mortzestus is just to give my post here a false sense of validity, the second quote by Fire Monkey is really the one I wanted to comment on.

a simple spell like protection from evil renders you completely immune to the paralysis effect caused by death attack. There you go, the main feature of a class completely negated by a level 1 spell that everybody and his mother can cast.

(snip)

not to mention that most people will try to wear some gear with bonuses to saves.

If they have the chance to cast spells, or put on gear, your not RPing an assassin. And remind me not to hire you.

It would be even better if you could paralyse then shift them into uncompromising positions . . .

What, like the back-seat of a Volkswagon?

[kombinat]

I realize this topic has been dead for a little while now, but I was busy back then, and just had to comment. The first quote by mortzestus is just to give my post here a false sense of validity, the second quote by Fire Monkey is really the one I wanted to comment on.

a simple spell like protection from evil renders you completely immune to the paralysis effect caused by death attack. There you go, the main feature of a class completely negated by a level 1 spell that everybody and his mother can cast.

(snip)

not to mention that most people will try to wear some gear with bonuses to saves.

If they have the chance to cast spells, or put on gear, your not RPing an assassin. And remind me not to hire you.

...

How would you, roleplaying an assassin superbly as you must, make people take their gear off, without letting them know you are there? How many people do you know take their gear off? How would you know when their gear is off, without examining them for their buff list? Have you really thought about this before accusing people of not roleplaying?

Do you really think it makes sense that an immunity to mind spells buff gives immunity to paralysis? What do you think immunity to paralysis buff is for, then? Think carefully before answering.

[Psyco]

Is there an immunity to paralysis buff?

I know you get imm paralysis with the freedom property, is it a seperate buff as well?

[kombinat]

Is there an immunity to paralysis buff?

I know you get imm paralysis with the freedom property, is it a seperate buff as well?

I'm talking about the property listed in the enchantment list, for PCs and monsters, shown when you examine them. "Immunity: Paralysis". Freedom of Movement gives you several such buffs. Protection from Evil gives you a conditional Deflection AC bonus buff and a conditional "Immunity: Mind Spells" buff. And so on. Many spells provide more than one buff.
The buff can be added as properties independently as well, so they're not tied to the spells. Someone can be immune to Movement Speed Decrease but not to Paralysis, for example. An item can give you Immunity: Paralysis but not Immunity: Movement Speed Decrease. And so on.

As far as I'm aware, there's no spell that will give you the Immunity: Paralysis buff but not the Immunity: Movement Speed Decrease buff.

Perhaps the word Property would be better to use instead of Buff.

[Psyco]

ok, you didn't quite get at what i was asking, but you answered it anyway, thanks.

now back to your previously scheduled discussion. *quickly walks away*

[kombinat]

Hah, was editing the response to your question in when you posted

[TiVO25]

...

How would you, roleplaying an assassin superbly as you must, make people take their gear off, without letting them know you are there? How many people do you know take their gear off? How would you know when their gear is off, without examining them for their buff list? Have you really thought about this before accusing people of not roleplaying?

Do you really think it makes sense that an immunity to mind spells buff gives immunity to paralysis? What do you think immunity to paralysis buff is for, then? Think carefully before answering.

/me Open mouth, insert foot.

(This is why I generally don't talk to people).

[pleasant, friendly tone of voice]

Ok, I stand corrected on the gear part, didn't mean to imply examining them for buffs. And you're right, haven't seen too many people take off their normal adventuring gear. (Which is odd, IMO, but I can definitely understand why).

I just meant, following them around, learning your marks habits, typical moves, etc. And then maybe when you see him take off his helmet and switch from armor to clothes, BAMO! I was merely trying to express that wading into combat with an assassin is not, in my opinion (note opinion does not equal mandated requirements or law, it is merely the belief of one person) proper role-playing for an assassin character. (Artemis Entreri aside). That's not how I pictured playing a typical assassin, and as the discussion seemed to be power vs. role-playing, I thought I'd add my voice to the PrC as a role-playing tool camp.

At any rate, didn't mean to get accusatory, certainly didn't mean to imply that others were incapable of role-playing, nor that I am by any stretch of the imagination a role-playing god.

And no, I didn't think about any of this much before posting. I'm generally an indiot when it comes to stuff like this. (NWN or social skills). Seriously, I'm not mocking or sarcastic here. I don't know this game well at all, but I figured I'm never gonna learn unless I enter the fray.

And in all sincerity, thanks for the lesson in humility, it was much needed.

[/pleasant, friendly tone of voice]

[kombinat]

/me Open mouth, insert foot.

(This is why I generally don't talk to people).

Sorry if I came across as excessively hostile. Guess I was a bit irked at the time by how I perceived your post, rather than how you intended it. My apologies.

Ok, I stand corrected on the gear part, didn't mean to imply examining them for buffs. And you're right, haven't seen too many people take off their normal adventuring gear. (Which is odd, IMO, but I can definitely understand why).

Glad we agree on that

I just meant, following them around, learning your marks habits, typical moves, etc. And then maybe when you see him take off his helmet and switch from armor to clothes, BAMO! I was merely trying to express that wading into combat with an assassin is not, in my opinion (note opinion does not equal mandated requirements or law, it is merely the belief of one person) proper role-playing for an assassin character. (Artemis Entreri aside). That's not how I pictured playing a typical assassin, and as the discussion seemed to be power vs. role-playing, I thought I'd add my voice to the PrC as a role-playing tool camp.

This makes perfect sense... and it's already how it works, because once combat starts, death attack will no longer work. It will only work when the opponent is flatfooted and out of combat, and unless they're casting spells, NPCs never go flatfooted when they can see a hostile PC.. they're always trying to get at them.
Assassins should patiently stalk their targets and wait for a time that they're at their most vulnerable before striking. Wading into combat plays to all of the assassin's weaknesses and few of their strengths.
So perfect agreement with you there.

At any rate, didn't mean to get accusatory, certainly didn't mean to imply that others were incapable of role-playing, nor that I am by any stretch of the imagination a role-playing god.

It's really just the off the cuff mark about not roleplaying that irked me.

And no, I didn't think about any of this much before posting. I'm generally an indiot when it comes to stuff like this. (NWN or social skills). Seriously, I'm not mocking or sarcastic here. I don't know this game well at all, but I figured I'm never gonna learn unless I enter the fray.

I'm sure you're not an idiot, nor lacking in social skills, and I in no way meant to discourage you from posting. Please continue to post and get involved, as you said you never learn any other way.

And in all sincerity, thanks for the lesson in humility, it was much needed.

I wasn't out to teach any lessons in humility. Gods know I need enough of that myself But do please keep in mind that accusations of poor roleplaying or cheesing are very serious insults on these boards, not something to be done lightly. Light hearted conversations, disagreements, discussions or arguments are fine, but as soon as those insults get brought out the tone will go downhill fast in any discussion.

[Liartes]

Artemis Entreri

My hero!

*swoons at the name*

[Anniko]

Artemis is...

*shoots Artemis Entreri in the back 20 times with +15 +1d6 lightning arrows*

[mortzestus]

a simple spell like protection from evil renders you completely immune to the paralysis effect caused by death attack. There you go, the main feature of a class completely negated by a level 1 spell that everybody and his mother can cast.

(snip)

not to mention that most people will try to wear some gear with bonuses to saves.

If they have the chance to cast spells, or put on gear, your not RPing an assassin. And remind me not to hire you.

Not too much to add at this point but i was simply stating facts. Protection from evil simply works like that when it's cast and people don't undon their gear unless they have a very good reason to do so. And i don't play an assassin, but i do play an anti-stealth specialist.

[CPU]

Not too much to add at this point but i was simply stating facts. Protection from evil simply works like that when it's cast and people don't undon their gear unless they have a very good reason to do so.

I know a number of folks that change to normal (non-fighting) clothing regularly when they don't expect to be fighting (like at Elf Gate or Fort Karr in Mikona). I have casual and dress clothes in my inventory at all times. Of course, I have also been attacked by full armor plated, helmed, axe wielding, homicidal maniacs in the middle of town too... So, go figure. I don't usually take off all the other gear though (rings, amulet, belt, etc...) It just takes too long to sort and put back on.

[mortzestus]

Not too much to add at this point but i was simply stating facts. Protection from evil simply works like that when it's cast and people don't undon their gear unless they have a very good reason to do so.

I know a number of folks that change to normal (non-fighting) clothing regularly when they don't expect to be fighting (like at Elf Gate or Fort Karr in Mikona). I have casual and dress clothes in my inventory at all times. Of course, I have also been attacked by full armor plated, helmed, axe wielding, homicidal maniacs in the middle of town too... So, go figure. I don't usually take off all the other gear though (rings, amulet, belt, etc...) It just takes too long to sort and put back on.

To stay IC in a series of situations would be one of the "very good reasons" i had in mind. But rings, gloves, boots, amulet, cape and belt will stay anyway, even if the character stashes his armour and helm in a bag and is wearing a pimpin' suit instead.

[modigliani]

Hey, can you folks help me sort out how one weapon vs. two-weapon fighting works with Death Attack? Namely, I'd like to know how many bona fide Death Attacks you get before combat begins with either one or two weapons:

+6/+1

+9/+4 with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

+11/+6/+1 with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

I would think that at +6/+1 you get two with two weapons and that at +8/+3 you get 3. Is that so?

Cheers!

EDIT: Changed numbers in bold, as +9 BAB is required for Improved 2-Wpn

[kombinat]

Only the first flurry counts as death attacks.

So if you have:

1-3 attacks per round: 1 death attack
4-6 attacks per round: 2 death attacks
7-9 attacks per round: 3 death attacks
10-12 attacks per round (hah!): 4 death attacks
And so on.

[modigliani]

Only the first flurry counts as death attacks.

So if you have:

1-3 attacks per round: 1 death attack
4-6 attacks per round: 2 death attacks
7-9 attacks per round: 3 death attacks
10-12 attacks per round (hah!): 4 death attacks
And so on.

Sorry, kombi, I'm dense: Does this mean that if you're dual wielding with 2 attacks per round for base BAB, you get 2 death attacks (from 4 total attacks per round?). And how would Improved 2-Wpn affect this?

[kombinat]

Sorry, kombi, I'm dense: Does this mean that if you're dual wielding with 2 attacks per round for base BAB, you get 2 death attacks (from 4 total attacks per round?).

Dual wielding adds 1 attack per round. So 2 base + 1 dual-wield = 3, so only 1 death attack.

And how would Improved 2-Wpn affect this?

Imp 2-wpn adds another off-hand attack, bringing the total off-hand attacks to 2.. so if, wielding a staff, you get 2 attacks per round (due to BAB), and you dual-wield two daggers instead and you have improved 2 wpn fighting, that will mean you now have 4 attacks per round and thus 2 death attacks.

Does that make sense?