Trolls...

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:29 pm

O.K., I'm not posting this as a Bug, 'cause it's a Bioware issue and has nothing to do with Avlis per se, but it annoys the crap outta me so I thought I'd open this up for general discussion and see what people's ideas/opinions were...

I HATE THE NEW TROLLS.

At what point did Bioware decide it was acceptable to make trolls that don't require fire or acid damage to be killed? WTF? IMO, this was a big part of the PnP game, as well as all the "Baldur's Gate" series. I always kept a mage around with a few Burning Hands and Flame Arrow spells at the ready, and made durn sure I was prepared before I'd go traipsing into a Troll Mound.

Since I'm "passable" at C++, and only know NWScript from reading source code off Builder sites, I thought I'd ask folks who use it if it would be possible to do something like having a script fire off at the OnDeath event that would assess the (I think it's called...) "Class 1 Property" of the last damage type to determine if that damage was from a "Fire" or "Acid" source and, if not, would return the Troll to 5-10 hp?

Would this be insane code-overhead for any server w/ Trolls on it because the module would have to keep track of all Trolls that were live? It seems to me that since most of them are "random spawn-in" and this would be an "OnDeath event" only, it wouldn't eat up too much memory.

Comments? Is what I've proposed viable w/ NWScript or completely outside of the realm of possibility?

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius

P.S.: And WHEN did "Carrion Crawlers" stop being long green worms and turn into piddly little Mr. Potato-Head Dog looking things?

Post by **Orleron** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:38 pm

It would probably be a lot easier to fit the troll with a creature item that made it immune to physical damage (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) and that would mean it only gets damaged from fire and other elements. That would not be accurate, but closer to the book.

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:05 pm

Yeah, I assume you could just edit the properties of the Troll Hide/Skin Template to encompass physical invulnerability... That's more in keeping w/ were-creatures and what have you, though. I'm really pining for the concept of chopping a troll to bits with a sword then needing to burn the bits to keep them from reforming.

Here's another angle:

Occaisionally, Jerry makes the WRONG person REALLY angry. When this happens, they'll knock him down to -1 hp (generally w/ just one hit by the time I'm in this much trouble

) and the "Bleeding" script starts. But these paticularly angry people (Guild Decimators, Fenmare Guards, and Valok Dominators, to name a few...) will stand there and keep beating and beating and beating on my corpse, generally doing no damage (I get that little brownish-green 0 that indicates damage immunity...), until somebody will somehow wack me with something that drops me to -39 hp and kills me instantly.

So, would it be possible to make trolls subject to the same "Bleeding" script as PC's, only w/ a 10% CUMULATIVE chance of "recovering" per -1 hp (i.e. 10% at -1, 20% at -2, 30% at -3, etc...) that makes their bodies immune to any damage but Fire and Acid ONLY during that script? That way, you can knock them down with normal weapons, but can only "kill" them (-10 hp or lower) w/ the appropriate damage types. That gives PC's a chance to "subdue" a troll and then flee before it "reassembles" itself, which always seemed like an extremely believable course of behavior from my days playing PnP. (Which, hopefully, will NOT be over if I ever stop playing Avlis long enough to finish up the PnP campaign I'm putting together for a few friends.)

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius

Chiatroll · Post by **Chiatroll** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:29 pm

I like that. I hope thats possible.

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:35 pm

Actually it would be closer if you had a corpse similar to a player corpse drop when the trolls died and then have the corpse get back up(dissappear and a troll re-appear) with partial HP after a set amount of time, UNLESS the corpse was destroyed using fire or acid. Which would be the easy part to code, not sure about the corpse poofing and a troll re-appearing however.

And now that i think about it there is a way you can make a monster corpse not poof when he dies, it just lays there looking dead. Hoqwever if i remeber right you can't interact with it. Maybe there is a flag you can turn on to allow such a thing.

~S

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:53 pm

Is this effect similar to how the Merchants and Guild Thugs have been re-tooled in Mikona?

If so, it seems like whatever property is allowing them to be rezzed could be reworked to allow them to be fire/acid burned as well.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius
Just enough coding knowledge to be a pain in the ass.

Nialator · Post by **Nialator** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:57 pm

I strongly agree. The Trolls are WEAK in NWN. I believe what you wish to see could be possible as i have seen it implemented in other NWN modules. There was one in particular that involved vampires. I cant remember the name of the mod off the top of my head but....upon bringing a vampire down to 0 hp it was immobile and fell to its knees for a few rounds. During that time you had to use a wooden stake(that was sold at one of the merchants along the way) on the vampire or it fully healed and proceded to kick your #@$ all over again. Unfortunately, I have little understanding of scripting. But if something like that can be done Im sure there is a way to improve the trolls in NWN to be more in line with the pnp version.

LordJeggred · Post by **LordJeggred** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 9:59 pm

I think Strangg was on the way to something.

Place the troll to change at 0 hp and dissapear replaced with a corpse labeled Troll Corpse.

Have the corpse have a spell effect of some sort on it or enviornment effect on it..and have the tick backwards until it heals itself..the coirpse being immune to everything but fire and acid. in the properties.

then scripted, have the corpse upon hitpoints at 0 +, then dissapear and the troll reappears with the same ammount of hitpoints, (being zero when he was slain and the corpse appeared in the first place)

I am no scripting god. but it is feasable.

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:35 am

IT's already done. Trolsl that need fire/acid to kill them are complete. I'm playign around with the scripting a bit now to get them to work the way i like. The bad thing righ tnow is i have 500 things io am workign n at once, a little at a time and not enough time to get it all done in. In short, you will see some real trolls in Avlis...one of these days.

~S

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:19 am

Yay!

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Off to think of something else to wish for...

Cookies · Post by **Cookies** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:15 am

Originally posted by Strangg
IT's already done. Trolsl that need fire/acid to kill them are complete. I'm playign around with the scripting a bit now to get them to work the way i like. The bad thing righ tnow is i have 500 things io am workign n at once, a little at a time and not enough time to get it all done in. In short, you will see some real trolls in Avlis...one of these days.
~S

WOW!!!

Sweeeeeeeeeet!

izyk · Post by **izyk** » Tue May 06, 2003 7:23 pm

What happened to this?

Lafferty · Post by **Lafferty** » Tue May 06, 2003 11:32 pm

wohoo!!

Real trolls!

i like it !

Liartes · Post by **Liartes** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:49 am

Uh right. They dont take acid or fire. The plan was obviously shelved.

HarveyH · Post by **HarveyH** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 7:36 am

Time for some serious deshelving!

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 7:51 am

Hmm, I don't know what monster's manuel you guys are reading, but they sure as heck don't require acid/fire to be killed in mine. The only thing I see is that the fire/acid damage doesn't regenerate unlike any other kinds. I don't see anything about the last blow having to be dealt by one of the above. Just curious thats all.

Zelphi · Post by **Zelphi** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:41 pm

I'm guessing it's out of date 2E/BG information, if anything. It's also a very good change to the monster as you can't garuntee there's someone with suitable damage around and it means bugger all if someone has a flaming or acid weapon on them.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:55 pm

As far as it being "out of date", that of course assumes that 2nd Ed. has been invalidated. It may not be the newest edition, but a lot of us old guys still play it.

In 2nd Ed, Trolls had an insane regeneration rate, and the only thing they couldn't regen was fire/acid damage....of course most campaigns I played in didn't allow for PCs to have access to acid, so it was fire all the way.

One troll could wipe out a party of PCs very easily if you were not prepared....about the only hope you had was loping limbs and running while it got itself back together. Though one evil fellow did try allowing it to reassemble itsself with the wrong limbs in place....but that's a whole other topic.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:10 pm

heh, this just reminded me of a time me and my friends tried a LotR RPG, can't remember what it was called though and it had a really cool critical hit system. But it had trolls in it, but they were very different to DnD trolls. The encounter went something like this:

DM: before you stands a huge troll, he readies his club and charges
elf: i hit him with my torch!
*die rolls*
DM: you succesfully hit him with your torch...he looks even more pissed off
elf: but...troll...fire...
DM: the troll hits you for...*rolls die*...a critical hit! *more dice rolls* he tears your arm of
elf:(as he lies on the ground, soaking in his own blood) but but...trolls...fire...

no shit, that's how it happened....as players we were all a bit shocked, but when we think back on it, it's kind of amusing. Our fault for assuming all trolls were like DnD trolls...

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:16 pm

The point, or at least the point prior to 3e (don't get me started...), is that unless you can deal damage that DOESN'T regenerate, eventually any damage you deal WILL.

Like I said, 3e changed the nature of "death" slightly, and I assume that the NWN engine is considering anything -10hp or below to be dead. But it *used* to be the case that even if you chopped a troll into little tiny pieces, if you didn't burn/acid them eventually the pieces would reform into the troll.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - 01d 3k001

JollyOrc · Post by **JollyOrc** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:34 pm

KinX wrote:heh, this just reminded me of a time me and my friends tried a LotR RPG, can't remember what it was called though and it had a really cool critical hit system. But it had trolls in it, but they were very different to DnD trolls. The encounter went something like this:

LOL

sounds like you've been playing MERP, the light version of Rolemaster.

Beware of any monster in these systems, as they are usually quite deadly. And yes, Trolls are really bad there.

*remembers Hullop and Trullop in an old MERP module*

Post by **Lycanthropy** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:35 pm

KinX wrote:But it had trolls in it, but they were very different to DnD trolls.

That passage made me laugh so much...

It really shows the differences between various fantasy worlds. Tolkien's trolls were more like Ogres or Giants in D&D... except they would turn to stone in sunlight (something Tolkien took from real-world myth).

Then there's vampires. How about vampires that can't cross running water, can't enter buildings uninvited, burn when touched by a holy symbol, can turn themselves into wolves, bats, mist...

I even vaguely remember an old Batman comic, where to kill these two vampires, he shot them with a silver bullet... think someone got his monsters mixed up a little...

Lafferty · Post by **Lafferty** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:37 pm

ROLEMASTER ... yeahhaaaa.!!!

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 8:50 pm

Actually wrote:The point, or at least the point prior to 3e (don't get me started...), is that unless you can deal damage that DOESN'T regenerate, eventually any damage you deal WILL.

Like I said, 3e changed the nature of "death" slightly, and I assume that the NWN engine is considering anything -10hp or below to be dead. But it *used* to be the case that even if you chopped a troll into little tiny pieces, if you didn't burn/acid them eventually the pieces would reform into the troll.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - 01d 3k001

How do the rules for this work? Is there not some level where even damage that could be regenerated will not regenerate due to excessive damage?

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:28 pm

marauder wrote:How do the rules for this work? Is there not some level where even damage that could be regenerated will not regenerate due to excessive damage?

Don't have a 2e MM in front of me, so this is all hearsay, but AFAIK no. I mean, w/in reason a DM might say that a troll who was, for example, ground into a very fine powder wouldn't regen, but that is a DM's call. The rules did, IIRC, say that even chopping them into smallish pieces wasn't enough. They would eventually reform from the pieces.

I think that there was at least some intention for trolls to be related in an organic way to green slime. You CANNOT kill green slime w/o fire. Dividing it into smaller samples of green slime just increases your danger.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - I wanna rock. Good day, sir.

The World of Avlis

Trolls...

Trolls...

Good Idea, Act